143 replies to this topic

[gillesthegenius]

As Red Bull wound down another successful season with a press day at its Milton Keynes base, team principal Christian Horner paid tribute to world champion Sebastian Vettel and the way he had handled everything that was thrown at him during the season. "He's never given up, never allowed himself to get distracted, no matter whether people were trying to get under his skin," he said. "The more pressure he has been under, the better he has delivered. "The fastest way of becoming unpopular is to have repeated success. The success we have had does not sit easily with some of our more established colleagues." Vettel, still on a high after securing his third drivers' championship, was at his diplomatic best. "It's not our decision and it's not in our hands when people try literally everything to beat us," he said. "I think that the most important thing is that you focus on yourself and you remain yourself; you don't try to be something that you're not, because I think it just distracts and that takes energy away.

Do you agree with him? Discuss...

[gillesthegenius]

The poll option didnt work. So could one of the mods be kind enough to add a simple poll with a 'yes' and a 'no' option.

Thanks.

[shonguiz]

That goes without saying.

[Creepy]

It's true. Most of drivers that got more than 1 championship have a lot of people criticizing them. And even some that only got 1!

[Ricardo F1]

I think it's true. Doubly so when there's questions about how you did it.

[Brother Fox]

Absolutely. Very few greats of any sport are universally liked.

The other side of the coin is that more people seem to like Schumacher more after dragging that silver dog around for 3 years.

[Mr2s]

Horner sounds like a wimp with those comments. Imagine if he'd been on the other end of Flavio and Symmonds "dirty tricks" or been Hill or Villeneuve's manager in 94/97

"It's not our decision and it's not in our hands when people try literally everything to beat us," he said.

[Mr2s]

Williams were not only liked, but highly respected during their success with Newey.

ferrari and schumacher became more and more popular and sold more merchandise the more controversy they created. Controversy that wouldn't be accepted by the finicky modern fan today.
People whinge about Alonso getting the odd bit of help from Massa towards the end of a season, when he only got the job in the first place on the condition of being schumacher's lapdog and people loved it back then.
Then there's Alonso, one of the cleanest fairest drivers on the track, hated due to rumours about his personality behind the scenes. Strangely people who really know him, think he's down to earth and easy going. Amazing considering many of these drivers didn't have a normal childhood.

Horner would be more popular if he chose his words more carefully.

[f1seb]

I don't know if it's success or something else. In the early 90's I had no problem with Williams F1 winning races and championships. I didn't really feel much ill will when Schumacher won with Benetton...and I hate that guy!! Didn't like it when Ferrari dominated. When Renault won with Alonso I didn't have a problem with it (had some second thoughts when the cheating was uncovered but not much), was happy that Ferrari didn't get them. As soon as Red Bull started wining I was not happy at all anybody but them!!! And I'm always very happy when McLaren win the constructors or the Drivers. So meh, Horner is obviously wrong.

[BCM]

I disagree.

It's not winning that makes you unpopular, it's how you're perceived to have carried yourself in the process of doing it that determines whether or not you're liked or not. And of course that is largely subjective from person to person as well.

So for example I'm not really that thrilled that Vettel won the championship, mainly because I feel that people just stepped out of his way rather than making him race for it in Brazil. I feel like he had it made very easy for him in the end, unlike Alonso. Note the use of the word "feel" and not "fact" because one man's fact is another man's fiction.

However there are plenty of others who think Vettel drove the race of his life in Brazil and that he's the greatest thing since sliced bread and I have no issue with that. Everyone is entitled to their own opinon.

Hell I used to despise Prost and love Senna when I was a kid and my old man was the other way around. Boy did we argue!

Edited by BCM, 29 November 2012 - 06:40.

[Kucki]

What makes you unpopular is whacking the 'authority finger'. You can have as much success as you want, this attitude would make anyone a douchebag.

[H2H]

Especially if you are a newcomer in sport with long-standing and big rivals, as one can see.

[Baddoer]

How silly is to make excuses from a team-boss for his bad-mouthed driver?

Edited by Baddoer, 29 November 2012 - 07:24.

[InfectedPumpkin]

Disagree. Vettel may be not popular because of his superb car. That's all.
As a person he is nice man.

[Der Pate]

How silly is to make excuses from a team-boss for his bad-mouthed driver?

I thought, Horner Talked about Red Bull and not Vettel?

[bourbon]

He may not be popular on here...actually, who is?

But in person, they are all popular. At the GPs, friends, foes, fans of all types don't give them an inch of breathing space - I mean, rushing and crushing to see them all. I think internet word warriors just give one a skewed idea of the true view of the majority of fans. I am not even sure we get the true view of the word warriors themselves on here.

Nonetheless, my input is that all the drivers are very popular, regardless of what one feels after chatting online about it. And I am talking Charles Pic was even chased down...(once people realized it was him).

[Craven Morehead]

I think it's true. Doubly so when there's questions about how you did it.

Agreed.

[tifosiMac]

I agree with Horner but its rather obvious and hardly a revelation. Hamilton became unpopular from about the 4th race of 2007 because he was better than many fans of other drivers had hoped. Vettel is the youngest triple WDC and naturally some people won't like him for it. Thats life.

[Der Pate]

Vettel is 25 years old...with this age some people are still live with their parents...and he is a champion, and everyone wants something from him all the time...

Imagine there are 10 journalists, who ask you the same question...maybe you are friendly 9 times and just don´t get it with the 10th journalist and are rude...what will appear in the next newspaper?

[britishtrident]

Absolutely. Very few greats of any sport are universally liked.

The other side of the coin is that more people seem to like Schumacher more after dragging that silver dog around for 3 years.

Yeah that guy Fangio was really unpopular, so was Moss Phil Hill, Jim Clark, Graham Hill, Bruce McLaren, John Surtees, Chris Amon, Denney Hulme, Jackie Stewart, Mario Andretti, Emerson Fittipaldi, Ronnie Petterson --------

Horner is generally liked, Newey is respected, Mark is very popular, most people can see that Vettel is a nice guy but still a bit immature. Exactly how great a driver Vettel is still not100% proven has his skills in wheel to wheel combat have never been proven because of the Red Bull's pace.
The problem for a lot of people with Red Bull lies with the guy lurking in the shadows at the back of the garage.

[Peat]

Especially if you are a newcomer in sport with long-standing and big rivals, as one can see.

Oh no. You're not one of those who's swallowed the Red Bull PR schtick are you? "The new little team that took on the big boys" - The team has been in F1 for 15 years (Stewart/Jag) and spends more than any other team in the pitlane.

In regards to the OP. Certainly success makes you unpopular, but in Horner's case it's more because he's a bit of a chode.

[Nobody]

I completely agree - what a d*ckhead!

[Sakae]

I disagree.

It's not winning that makes you unpopular, it's how you're perceived to have carried yourself in the process of doing it that determines whether or not you're liked or not. And of course that is largely subjective from person to person as well.

So for example I'm not really that thrilled that Vettel won the championship, mainly because I feel that people just stepped out of his way rather than making him race for it in Brazil. I feel like he had it made very easy for him in the end, unlike Alonso. Note the use of the word "feel" and not "fact" because one man's fact is another man's fiction.

However there are plenty of others who think Vettel drove the race of his life in Brazil and that he's the greatest thing since sliced bread and I have no issue with that. Everyone is entitled to their own opinon.

Hell I used to despise Prost and love Senna when I was a kid and my old man was the other way around. Boy did we argue!

Boy, you make me feel old.

[black magic]

well vettel on wole hard to dislike whether I thought he drove better than alonso or not.

personally I cant stand Horner. that " well done seb" sounds so fake and go ask webber what he thinks of herner - may as well not even exist

and then there is the sense that red bull have got away with overstepping at least the spirit of the rules.

but to some extent horner is correct. i think most of us have a fondness for the undedog and red bull have won enough of late and watching that car sythe its way past the vast majority must have made the other drivers bug eyed with envy

[JRizzle86]

Smugness makes you unpopular. Gloating makes you unpopular.

[Sakae]

Horner (+Marko) are subjected quite often attacks by some fans, thus it is not surprise that he is under attack once again, yet probably he is merely voicing what many in the piranha club think, but have no guts or reasons due to poor results to say. Being contraversial keeps us busy after all.

[Kucki]

Even here in Austria you would think people would be a buzz about Vettel winning, a Red Bull Austria team winning but there is very little. I would bet if you make a poll across the landscape people like Webber more then Vettel. The way Red Bull treated Webber is still not forgotten in this country.

The way Red Bull bashed Senna without any respect after Vettel clearly drove all the way into him, and the shameful bashing from Vettel on Karthikejan after he did everything right is just there attitude that doesnt come across well even in there homeland. They have no class, while Ferrari are considered fraudsters with zero integrity, the way Helmut Marko or Vettel act is just embarrassing and hard to like.

Everybody can act wrong in moments and it is the responsibility of those around them to reflect on them. When Alonso was doing his spanish bullfight gesture on the car after a win, it must not have taken long for someone in the team to tell him to stop that as it looked silly. Nobody in the rest of the world considers killing animals for fun acceptable so he should not do the bull acting and alonso stopped doing his spanish bullfight act.

But with Vettel, nobody in his team seemed to be able to take him aside and explain him how ******** he looks outthere after a win. Nobody likes to see how your father looked after he beat you up Sebastian. The authority finger is completely out of place after a win. When Alonso, Button, Hamilton, Webber wins, they celebrate in a way that let you be happy WITH them, they share there success with everybody. Vettel celebrates in a egomaniac way 'Im number one Im the best Im the best look at my authority finger' remember the kids in school who tried so hard to be cool that nobody liked them. Vettel is like that. He only celebrates to himself. His body language reveals him. He doesnt want to share his success, so people rather see someone else with class winning it.

[ViMaMo]

Success makes you Horn[i]er

Edited by ViMaMo, 29 November 2012 - 08:43.

[Rocket73]

depends how you do it....Valentino Rossi isn't unpopular

[Sakae]

Even here in Austria you would think people would be a buzz about Vettel winning, a Red Bull Austria team winning but there is very little. I would bet if you make a poll across the landscape people like Webber more then Vettel. The way Red Bull treated Webber is still not forgotten in this country.

The way Red Bull bashed Senna without any respect after Vettel clearly drove all the way into him, and the shameful bashing from Vettel on Karthikejan after he did everything right is just there attitude that doesnt come across well even in there homeland. They have no class, while Ferrari are considered fraudsters with zero integrity, the way Helmut Marko or Vettel act is just embarrassing and hard to like.

Everybody can act wrong in moments and it is the responsibility of those around them to reflect on them. When Alonso was doing his spanish bullfight gesture on the car after a win, it must not have taken long for someone in the team to tell him to stop that as it looked silly. Nobody in the rest of the world considers killing animals for fun acceptable so he should not do the bull acting and alonso stopped doing his spanish bullfight act.

But with Vettel, nobody in his team seemed to be able to take him aside and explain him how ******** he looks outthere after a win. Nobody likes to see how your father looked after he beat you up Sebastian. The authority finger is completely out of place after a win. When Alonso, Button, Hamilton, Webber wins, they celebrate in a way that let you be happy WITH them, they share there success with everybody. Vettel celebrates in a egomaniac way 'Im number one Im the best Im the best look at my authority finger' remember the kids in school who tried so hard to be cool that nobody liked them. Vettel is like that. He only celebrates to himself. His body language reveals him. He doesnt want to share his success, so people rather see someone else with class winning it.

You have another fellow countryman Marko, who could tell Vettel how "********" he looks like, and if he cannot see it, that maybe team's owner could drop a hint. Setting your personal preferences aside, why this hasn't happend already makes you wonder, if they actually agree with you.



________

Having said that, I do agree that Seb could consider giving shorter answers during post-race interviews, because in those conditions one is bound to say sooner or later something which is not worth it, and will upset some people, as we have seen already.

[Der Pate]

Even here in Austria you would think people would be a buzz about Vettel winning, a Red Bull Austria team winning but there is very little. I would bet if you make a poll across the landscape people like Webber more then Vettel. The way Red Bull treated Webber is still not forgotten in this country.

The way Red Bull bashed Senna without any respect after Vettel clearly drove all the way into him, and the shameful bashing from Vettel on Karthikejan after he did everything right is just there attitude that doesnt come across well even in there homeland. They have no class, while Ferrari are considered fraudsters with zero integrity, the way Helmut Marko or Vettel act is just embarrassing and hard to like.

Everybody can act wrong in moments and it is the responsibility of those around them to reflect on them. When Alonso was doing his spanish bullfight gesture on the car after a win, it must not have taken long for someone in the team to tell him to stop that as it looked silly. Nobody in the rest of the world considers killing animals for fun acceptable so he should not do the bull acting and alonso stopped doing his spanish bullfight act.

But with Vettel, nobody in his team seemed to be able to take him aside and explain him how ******** he looks outthere after a win. Nobody likes to see how your father looked after he beat you up Sebastian. The authority finger is completely out of place after a win. When Alonso, Button, Hamilton, Webber wins, they celebrate in a way that let you be happy WITH them, they share there success with everybody. Vettel celebrates in a egomaniac way 'Im number one Im the best Im the best look at my authority finger' remember the kids in school who tried so hard to be cool that nobody liked them. Vettel is like that. He only celebrates to himself. His body language reveals him. He doesnt want to share his success, so people rather see someone else with class winning it.

I´m sorry, but your comment is complete bullshit...as an Austrian I can say, that Red Bull has a great popularity (excluded the soccer-team) here in Austria, and most of the people I meet find it great to hear the Austrian national anthem on so many occassions, whenever Red Bull won a Grand Prix...

I never heard, that someone has a problem with the Vettel-finger either...Vettel is considered as a nice guy, even though he is German, which is a problem for most of the Austrians...

The only problem for Red Bull is their success in F1 but also in other projects like the Red Bull Stratos...unfortunately in Austria we have something which is called "Neid-Gesellschaft"...I don´t know, if you can translate it as "envy-society"...unfortunately Austrians tend to envy somebody for having success...

[Smile17]

Success makes you popular. Repeated success makes you twice as popular. It's simple.

But I can understand why it doesn't really make Vettel any popular. People directly link his success to Adrian Newey's work (or better said; Redbull's rocket ship) I can say the same for Schumacher and Ferrari.

Edited by Smile17, 29 November 2012 - 09:07.

[Creepy]

[...]

But in person, they are all popular. At the GPs, friends, foes, fans of all types don't give them an inch of breathing space - I mean, rushing and crushing to see them all. I think internet word warriors just give one a skewed idea of the true view of the majority of fans. I am not even sure we get the true view of the word warriors themselves on here.

Wow, I think I'm going to agree with you on this one.

[H2H]

Oh no. You're not one of those who's swallowed the Red Bull PR schtick are you? "The new little team that took on the big boys" - The team has been in F1 for 15 years (Stewart/Jag) and spends more than any other team in the pitlane.

In regards to the OP. Certainly success makes you unpopular, but in Horner's case it's more because he's a bit of a chode.

What part of the long-standing and big rivals bit did you not understand?

Edited by H2H, 29 November 2012 - 09:14.

[OneAndOnly]

In my city there is saying: "This city will forgive you anything, except success". It's like that in life. Especially if you are not charismatic and charming.
Horner is annoying with this "everyone is against us" rhetoric though.

[Peat]

What part of the long-standing and big rivals bit did you not understand?

Did i miss the sarcasm tags?

[joora]

Even if there is some thruth in Horner's words, that's not the reason RB is unpopular.

I percieve RB same as teams like Chelsea or Man City (or now PSG) in football: you have boatloads of cash -> you buy a solid team -> you buy the best people to work on the team -> you buy a second, smaller team for driver testing. It's a corporate team, and for me it's much easier to like teams like HRT or Williams, or even Ferrari and Mclaren (since they at least have rich racing heritage).

Although harsh, the "just a drinks company" is one of the best statements that describe RBR.

But there is more. When you favour one driver over the other when formally they are entitled to same, fair treatment - it's natural that you will loose on popularity. Ask Ferrari.

Also, when you have drivers from other teams working for you (Torro Rosso) and moving aside to let your drivers thru, it's natural that you will loose on popularity.

When your second driver has to move aside to let your first driver, it's natural that you will loose on popularity. Ask Ferrari.

When you break and bend the rules, and are smug about it, and also overly-judgmental towards others who do it, it's natural that you will loose on popularity.

When your first driver is trying just too much to be likeable to the general public, but you can see that he's not too gracious in defeat and there is lots of smugness in his victory, it's natural that you will loose on popularity.


But most of that can be corrected (or forgotten) when someone one-ups you in the next season. Ask Ferrari

[Kucki]

I´m sorry, but your comment is complete bullshit...as an Austrian I can say, that Red Bull has a great popularity (excluded the soccer-team) here in Austria, and most of the people I meet find it great to hear the Austrian national anthem on so many occassions, whenever Red Bull won a Grand Prix...

I never heard, that someone has a problem with the Vettel-finger either...Vettel is considered as a nice guy, even though he is German, which is a problem for most of the Austrians...

The only problem for Red Bull is their success in F1 but also in other projects like the Red Bull Stratos...unfortunately in Austria we have something which is called "Neid-Gesellschaft"...I don´t know, if you can translate it as "envy-society"...unfortunately Austrians tend to envy somebody for having success...

Its not die Neidgesellschaft or the usual dislike of Germans in Austria. Sure it is liked to here the Austrian anthem on a Red Bull win, but Red Bull as the F1 team, Helmut Marko or Vettel are in general not much liked atleast around Vienna. Ask most F1 fans in Vienna while they admit Webber is slower he is not as arrogant as Vettel, and that authority finger whacking has become the symbol of his attitude. Vettel and Red Bull F1 dont get a tiny fraction of the support Wendlinger, Berger or Lauda got.

Edited by Kucki, 29 November 2012 - 09:47.

[choyothe]

That goes without saying.

Someone like Jordan is an extremely rare exception, even more incredible considering he was a douche bag during and after his career.

[spacekid]

I disagree with Horner. Being perceived as smug or whining will make you unpopular though.

Winning titles never made Kimi or Mika unpopular, for instance.

[H2H]

Did i miss the sarcasm tags?

Oh just the long-standing and big rivals bit. I guess I should have made it even clearer for those who have troubles to read. Sorry.

McLaren, Ferrari and Williams have been big teams for 25+ years. The teams from which Red Bull evolved had nothing near their success and average ressources.

Horner means of course it makes you unpopular in the paddock, so far RBR has been very successful at getting more and more commercial partners on board so they are pretty popular on that front. Fan-wise it is of course difficult to break into the older, more established markets but they have certainly become much more popular then in 2008.

Edited by H2H, 29 November 2012 - 10:06.

[choyothe]

I disagree with Horner. Being perceived as smug or whining will make you unpopular though.

Winning titles never made Kimi or Mika unpopular, for instance.

Kimi won 1, Mika 2. Most thought Kimi deserved more than that. I thought the point was that continued and excessive success makes you unpopular.

[Absulute]

No, Christian, being a smug, arrogant git makes you unpopular.

[TheUltimateWorrier]

Absolutely. Very few greats of any sport are universally liked.

That's just not true. Roger Federer, Usain Bolt, Muhammad Ali, Michael Jordan, Pelé, Lionel Messi, Wayne Gretzky are just some of the greats of their sports who are universally liked.

[Der Pate]

Its not die Neidgesellschaft or the usual dislike of Germans in Austria. Sure it is liked to here the Austrian anthem on a Red Bull win, but Red Bull as the F1 team, Helmut Marko or Vettel are in general not much liked atleast around Vienna. Ask most F1 fans in Vienna while they admit Webber is slower he is not as arrogant as Vettel, and that authority finger whacking has become the symbol of his attitude. Vettel and Red Bull F1 dont get a tiny fraction of the support Wendlinger, Berger or Lauda got.

I live in Vienna, and I don´t really observe, that the people in Vienna generally don´t like Vettel or Marko...of course they will never like Vettel as much as Lauda or Berger...but that is just because they are Austrian...remember some quotes of Niki in the 70s...they were far more arrogant...Marko may be hated especially by the British because of some quotes, such as he said, that the Red Bull would lap the toher cars 3 times during the race, if they could keep up the pace...which was right, but he couldn´t do that...

I haven´t heard anything about that "authority-finger" éither...

[F1ultimate]

That's just not true. Roger Federer, Usain Bolt, Muhammad Ali, Michael Jordan, Pelé, Lionel Messi, Wayne Gretzky are just some of the greats of their sports who are universally liked.

That goes to show that its not winning but your character that makes you unpopular.

[HP]

I percieve RB same as teams like Chelsea or Man City (or now PSG) in football: you have boatloads of cash -> you buy a solid team -> you buy the best people to work on the team -> you buy a second, smaller team for driver testing. It's a corporate team, and for me it's much easier to like teams like HRT or Williams, or even Ferrari and Mclaren (since they at least have rich racing heritage).

It's not that easy. Consider Ron Dennis buying up McLaren, except for the 2nd team it's very similar. From all the episodes there I just want to provide a link to an article from Monaco 2001 what contains some thought provoking thoughts.

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/17544/

McLaren could easily be as disliked as Red Bull. And never mind about Ferrari.

I much less bothered these days with all that stuff, because I realize that no team ever (even my team, Ferrari) will 100% do everything according to my culture, world-view and expectations. Life got so more interesting, enjoyable and easier.

[joora]

It's not that easy. Consider Ron Dennis buying up McLaren, except for the 2nd team it's very similar. From all the episodes there I just want to provide a link to an article from Monaco 2001 what contains some thought provoking thoughts.

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/17544/

McLaren could easily be as disliked as Red Bull. And never mind about Ferrari.

I much less bothered these days with all that stuff, because I realize that no team ever (even my team, Ferrari) will 100% do everything according to my culture, world-view and expectations. Life got so more interesting, enjoyable and easier.

I completely agree, but then again Ron Dennis isn't the most popular character either

The thing is that RBR ticks so many boxes for dislikeability, that repeated success isn't the sole reason for that matter.

[Lights]

I echo a lot of comments in this thread. It's not about the winning, it's the way of doing it, the attitude and the smugness of some.

[britishtrident]

I disagree with Horner. Being perceived as smug or whining will make you unpopular though.

Winning titles never made Kimi or Mika unpopular, for instance.

Mika popular ? a new one on me Mika wasn't actually disliked he was just to use the Scottish word "dour" that was the way he was made and the fact speaking English phased him a bit didn't help ...... such a contrast from Kimi and DC.