143 replies to this topic

[apoka]

Ferrari and McLaren have large fanbases, because of their success and history in the sport. As a "newcomer" you will be liked if you have some success. However, if you become so successful that you are a real threat, people will start to question and dislike you.

That's a very normal process and I don't think it really has much to do with RB bending the rules (that is often seen as a skill; every team does it and there were sufficiently many rule clarifications which did not help RB). RB could have done better PR in some situations, but I don't think that this is the sole reason why they aren't liked as much as other top teams.

[EvanRainer]

I disagree completely with Horner - its not about success, its how a team or individual is perceived while successful. The best possible argument is simply Mika Hakkinen, who was ultra successful if not dominant in 1998, and very successful in 1999, yet he's pretty much universally popular (yes, there's probably some weirdo somewhere who doesn't like him). The same goes for Williams during their domination of the sport during the 1990's, they were much loved and still are.

Yeah I am sure the Schumi fanboys of the time absolutely loved Hakkinen. And everyone loved Williams in the mid 90s? LMAO please, get real. Williams was absolutely hated by Senna fans, McLaren fans, Ferrari fans, Schumacher fans....

Then again as a good example you have the dominant McLaren of the late 1990's who were perceived as arrogant by some, and were correspondingly less popular. Horner and his boy-wonder do themselves no favours with their overarching smugness and complete lack of humility when victorious, and their constant whining when things don't go to plan, as well as a complete inability to admit to any errors on their part. A little humility goes a long way. He could learn quite a lot from Stefano Domenicali, who has (for me at least) 'humanized' Ferrari again.

Ohhhh yeah you are so objective aren't you. Show me a NEUTRAL i.e. non McLaren/Hamilton/Ferrari/Alonso fanboy who thinks that "Horner and his boy-wonder do themselves no favours with their overarching smugness and complete lack of humility when victorious, and their constant whining when things don't go to plan"

What you perceive as "smugness" is simply you being annoyed at someone you have decided you don't like winning.

Unless of course you want to show me some examples of this "smugness" and "lack of humility"

[tifosiMac]

I admire Red Bull as I admire any British team that innovates within the sport and succeeds. I don't like their smug attitude when they win however and I'd like to see the order shaken up a bit again over the next few years. Nobody likes the team team dominating year after year and dare I say even the fans of particular drivers and teams like it when the challenge is brought.

[EvanRainer]

Can you please explain to me what makes them "smug" ?

[tifosiMac]

Can you please explain to me what makes them "smug" ?

A perception, impression, observation when observing those in victory.

[EvanRainer]

"smug/sməg/
Adjective:
Having or showing an excessive pride in oneself or one's achievements"

Are you saying they are being EXCESSIVELY proud of their achievements. And what in their behavior shows that?

Are you sure they don't just bother you simply because they are beating your team? You know, it's perfectly OK to be annoyed at your rival team winning all the time. I watch a lot of sports and I am very emotionally invested in a lot of them and hate when my rivals win.

Doesn't make them smug though.

[tifosiMac]

Are you sure they don't just bother you simply because they are beating your team? You know, it's perfectly OK to be annoyed at your rival team winning all the time. I watch a lot of sports and I am very emotionally invested in a lot of them and hate when my rivals win.

Of course that is part of it for me yes. I think any team that wins emits a certain 'smugness' and this is noticed more when you are observing in a rival sense. I don't have a team as such because I am a driver supporter, so my team as it were has changed moving in to 2013. Its all new to me, but I will support them as long as my favourite driver is there. Lewis is heading to Mercedes and they don't come much more smug than Ross Brawn who I don't like one little bit. Not for that reason, purely based on a friend who worked under him during the Honda years. There is nothing wrong with being 'smug' but you are allowed to be a little miffed when it doesn't go your way. Hypocritical as it may be, that's what comes with support.

[EvanRainer]

Well this is kind of exactly what I am saying though:) But there are a lot of other people who do not seem aware that it's simply a matter of perception. There are some ridiculous accusations that have been hurled towards Horner and Vettel the last few days.

I can openly admit I root against Hamilton and don't like when he wins but I am very self aware that this is because I find some of his fans obnoxious. I don't have anything against him personally and I don't go around attacking his character and calling him things because I hated he won and how dare he celebrate and be happy about it.

This is not to say of course we are not allowed to dislike someone's character but it's good to be able to discern why we find someone annoying.

[gillesthegenius]

Well. Well. Well. Am I surprised by the responses to this thread?

As I suspected the only reasons people are using to justify their hatred for RBR and Seb are Newey's ability to push the rules to the limit (which I feel is the effect of him being a true genius of science), Seb's finger and his childishness (which I feel is a breath of fresh air amongst all the PR robots - isnt it interesting that it is the same Seb the world came to love after his underdog victory in Monza that most hate now, after years of domination), and Horner's confidence and assuredness (which probably is the reason why he has lead this team so succesfully over the years).

Besides, if Seb's finger and his radio comments are so arrogant, then what would you call a hysterical laugh by a certain driver after he had inherited victory from a misfortune suffered by his main championship rival? And if Seb is such bad loser, then what would people call a championship contender who refuses to congratulate his conquerer after a hard fought battle?

Seb talks about how he respects his championship rivals even after beating them, while they only talk about Newey. Yet Seb is the one who is arrogant and petulant. What a world!!!

Edited by gillesthegenius, 30 November 2012 - 09:43.

[EvanRainer]

Vettel's "finger" is a good example. Being annoyed by it because you are a rival fan is fine.

Where it becomes hypocritical is when you pretend that you don't hate it because it's the guy you don't like doing it but supposedly because it's x,y,z things and you wouldn't love it if it was your guy.

[tifosiMac]

I can openly admit I root against Hamilton and don't like when he wins but I am very self aware that this is because I find some of his fans obnoxious. I don't have anything against him personally and I don't go around attacking his character and calling him things because I hated he won and how dare he celebrate and be happy about it.

I can't say I would dislike a driver based on his fans. I don't like a lot of fellow Hamilton fans and indeed ignore them, but it doesn't affect my support. I don't dislike any driver on the grid as such, I enjoy my driver winning but have respect for the abilities of all. I think every driver has that segment of annoying fans. I've never met Vettel in real life (met Hamilton) but he seems a genuinely nice chap from what I have seen. The arrogance is there for sure but I like that in a racing driver. If they are not arrogant in their own ability, they ain't getting anywhere!

And if Seb is such bad loser, then what would people call a championship contender who refuses to congratulate his conquerer after a well fought battle?

Seb talks about how he respects his championship rivals even after beating them, while they only talk about Newey. Yet Seb is the one who is arrogant and petulent. What a world!!!

They are all bad losers to a degree whether its letting off steam in front of the press, throwing a steering wheel out of the car, or slapping ones gloves against the catch fencing. Frustration in competition is natural.

I seem to remember Alonso going to congratulate Vettel in Brazil after the win? Its often easier to congratulate rivals after beating them because it pumps one's own ego because again, you've just beaten them lol. I know lewis and Fernando have ended the season disappointed but both approached him in the paddock in Brazil and shook his hand.

I wouldn't pay too much attention to drivers congratulating Newey and the team either, its just mind games and is equally as unnecessary as bringing up negatives aspects of others trying to beat you. Vettel was equally uncomplimentary of Ferrari post race in Brazil so they were all up to it.;)

[August]

Usually the general public likes the most successful teams/sportsmen. But amongst the people of that certain sport, success can make you either more popular or more unpopular. And I think Horner speaks now about getting popular within F1 people.

I think getting popular or unpopular depends on how you get the success. For example Roger Federer is very popular within tennis fans, even other players fans mostly appreciate him. Of course there are also haters in all sports but I'd say Federer has less haters than many as successful sportsmen. And why is Federer so popular within tennis people? Because he was so great in his best years, he was so successful just because he was from another league compared to others, his titles weren't controversial. And he's a nice person. Of course, some people didn't like how he was dominating tennis.

Anyway, compare that to Red Bull and Vettel. Red Bull has been somewhat controversial team because of aerodynamical innovations that are on the grey area. And some people argue Seb won his titles only because of the best car in the grid. And add to this the fact that RB is an energy drink brand instead of being a traditional racing team or car manufacturer, for sure it's tough for some people (like me) to see such a team to succeed. and some people just get bored with RBR's success- On the other hand, almost every team has stains in their reputation and they have haters, especially if they do well. If Williams won championship, they might be an exceptionally universally liked team, I wonder if Williams have any haters.

[gillesthegenius]

They are all bad losers to a degree whether its letting off steam in front of the press, throwing a steering wheel out of the car, or slapping ones gloves against the catch fencing. Frustration in competition is natural.

I seem to remember Alonso going to congratulate Vettel in Brazil after the win? Its often easier to congratulate rivals after beating them because it pumps one's own ego because again, you've just beaten them lol. I know lewis and Fernando have ended the season disappointed but both approached him in the paddock in Brazil and shook his hand.

I wouldn't pay too much attention to drivers congratulating Newey and the team either, its just mind games and is equally as unnecessary as bringing up negatives aspects of others trying to beat you. Vettel was equally uncomplimentary of Ferrari post race in Brazil so they were all up to it.;)

They are all humans and they all have their fair share of short comings. But judging by the justifications made by many for their hatred for Seb, they should hate all the drivers. But they dont. Why? Because Seb is the only one dominating?

Besides, being a fan of Damon Hill, I didnt like Schumacher. But I never ever got to the level where I hated him, inspite of him giving me many reasons to do so. So I find it to be extremely pathetic when people express so much of hate towards Seb. So I wanted to find out exactly why they hated him so much. That is why I started this thread. And Im not surprised by the impressions I get.

Edited by gillesthegenius, 30 November 2012 - 10:13.

[EvanRainer]

I can't say I would dislike a driver based on his fans. I don't like a lot of fellow Hamilton fans and indeed ignore them, but it doesn't affect my support. I don't dislike any driver on the grid as such, I enjoy my driver winning but have respect for the abilities of all. I think every driver has that segment of annoying fans. I've never met Vettel in real life (met Hamilton) but he seems a genuinely nice chap from what I have seen. The arrogance is there for sure but I like that in a racing driver. If they are not arrogant in their own ability, they ain't getting anywhere!

But that's exactly my point. I dislike Hamilton winning because I know some of his fans will be obnoxious about it, but it doesn't make me dislike him personally.

And while I agree with you that you really do need extreme self belief and confidence in your abilities to be a top driver and it can lead a certain amount of arrogance, I actually haven't perceived any arrogance at all from any of the top guys.

Even if they can crack under pressure and whine about things I've never seen them display arrogance. I've seen Alonso be quite humble about his abilities and I can't remember Hamilton going around touting how he is the driving god or the best this and best that. It's some of the fans that do that stuff. Same for other top drivers. Whatever they believe deep inside I have no complaints on their outward behavior when it comes to arrogance(not saying they are perfect, they can have other flaws).

[Kucki]

Evan Rainer so much talk about 'fanboyism'. Once you will grow up you will see beeing a fanboy of anybody is childish, take off the posters from your wall and follow the sport like a mature one. Horner, Marko and Vettel, the way they act, the way they talk is genuinly unlikeable. Despite I'm not a fan of anybody else. There is a reason athletes like Michael Jordan, Roger Federer, Mika Hakkinen are liked across the board, while other sportsman dont get as much sympathy.

In general people like successful athlete who stay classy, respect themselfs, respect the sport, respect there opponents. Vettel comes across like a snotty nosed brat. His team follows along with the exception of Newey and Webber. Calling Karthikeyan an 'Idiot' with no apologies after he did everything right, bashing Webber after Vettel turned into him in Turkey, Horner saying Brunno Senna is "stupid" after Vettel drove all the way across the track to hit him, and Vettels authority finger acting ******** after a win. It is no surprise they come across as no class unlikeable bunch of ignorant

[Kelateboy]

No. I think that you could safely say that signing for any team other thanthe top 3 (Red Bull, McL and Ferrari) would be a sign of masochism.

Now we know why some fans believe Lewis have balls of steels....

[gillesthegenius]

Evan Rainer so much talk about 'fanboyism'. Once you will grow up you will see beeing a fanboy of anybody is childish, take off the posters from your wall and follow the sport like a mature one. Horner, Marko and Vettel, the way they act, the way they talk is genuinly unlikeable. Despite I'm not a fan of anybody else. There is a reason athletes like Michael Jordan, Roger Federer, Mika Hakkinen are liked across the board, while other sportsman dont get as much sympathy.

In general people like successful athlete who stay classy, respect themselfs, respect the sport, respect there opponents. Vettel comes across like a snotty nosed brat. His team follows along with the exception of Newey and Webber. Calling Karthikeyan an 'Idiot' with no apologies after he did everything right, bashing Webber after Vettel turned into him in Turkey, Horner saying Brunno Senna is "stupid" after Vettel drove all the way across the track to hit him, and Vettels authority finger acting ******** after a win. It is no surprise they come across as no class unlikeable bunch of ignorant

Wow!!! Classy post.

[tifosiMac]

They are all humans and they all have their fair share of short comings. But judging by the justifications made by many for their hatred for Seb, they should hate all the drivers. But they dont. Why? Because Seb is the only one dominating?

Besides, being a fan of Damon Hill, I didnt like Schumacher. But I never ever got to the level where I hated him, inspite of him giving me many reasons to do so. So I find it to be extremely pathetic when people express so much of hate towards Seb. So I wanted to find out exactly why they hated him so much. That is why I started this thread. And Im not surprised by the impressions I get.

I suppose people can only be critical of what they see and draw impressions from that. I don't think anyone here genuinely 'hates' a driver because that is a strong word IMO. It seems more acceptable to 'dislike' people here who we have never seen or met, yet criticise them for disliking a driver we like who they see on the telly every other week!? Its madness really.

[EvanRainer]

Evan Rainer so much talk about 'fanboyism'. Once you will grow up you will see beeing a fanboy of anybody is childish, take off the posters from your wall and follow the sport like a mature one. Horner, Marko and Vettel, the way they act, the way they talk is genuinly unlikeable. Despite I'm not a fan of anybody else. There is a reason athletes like Michael Jordan, Roger Federer, Mika Hakkinen are liked across the board, while other sportsman dont get as much sympathy.

In general people like successful athlete who stay classy, respect themselfs, respect the sport, respect there opponents. Vettel comes across like a snotty nosed brat. His team follows along with the exception of Newey and Webber. Calling Karthikeyan an 'Idiot' with no apologies after he did everything right, bashing Webber after Vettel turned into him in Turkey, Horner saying Brunno Senna is "stupid" after Vettel drove all the way across the track to hit him, and Vettels authority finger acting ******** after a win. It is no surprise they come across as no class unlikeable bunch of ignorant

Yes yes, your posts just reek of objectivity and maturity. Of course on the other hand I can barely understand what you are saying.

[gillesthegenius]

I suppose people can only be critical of what they see and draw impressions from that. I don't think anyone here genuinely 'hates' a driver because that is a strong word IMO. It seems more acceptable to 'dislike' people here who we have never seen or met, yet criticise them for disliking a driver we like who they see on the telly every other week!? Its madness really.

Well, I dont know about you. But I find it pathetic when people assasinate the character of any driver, whether it be someone I like or not.

[Kucki]

Yes yes, your posts just reek of objectivity and maturity. Of course on the other hand I can barely understand what you are saying.

Its easy. When people in cars at the front call backmarkers and midfield drivers publicly 'stupid' and 'idiotic' its no wonder they arent popular. If you lack respect for others, people will lack respect for you. Vettel is still young and could probably learn as he moves forward, Horner and Marko, hardly hope for them.

Edited by Kucki, 30 November 2012 - 11:24.

[EvanRainer]

Whatever you say

[Kelateboy]

Its easy. When people in cars at the front call backmarkers and midfield drivers publicly 'stupid' and 'idiotic' its no wonder they arent popular. If you lack respect for others, people will lack respect for you. Vettel is still young and could probably learn as he moves forward, Horner and Marko, hardly hope for them.

Vettel has every right to be angry because a backmarker ruined his race. However, his choice of words could have been better.

[gillesthegenius]

Vettel has every right to be angry because a backmarker ruined his race. However, his choice of words could have been better.

I agree.

But maybe punching him without uttering a single word would have helped him out with his popularity.

Edited by gillesthegenius, 30 November 2012 - 11:45.

[Sakae]

Vettel has every right to be angry because a backmarker ruined his race. However, his choice of words could have been better.

This delay in US race with NK is bizzare. HRT guy has mouthful of explanations that his unyielding driving is not against rules, but if so, one could say that this is not a very good track, since with all odds driver already faces, a hostile driver can manipulate race against following car and simply get away with it. I am not sure that is what we want to see in the future.

I think something will hit the fan when in future one of the TR drivers will slow down in the front of Alonso, and Alonso will consequently lose a race; we will learn very quickly then how Ferrari likes it.

[sailor]

This delay in US race with NK is bizzare. HRT guy has mouthful of explanations that his unyielding driving is not against rules, but if so, one could say that this is not a very good track, since with all odds driver already faces, a hostile driver can manipulate race against following car and simply get away with it. I am not sure that is what we want to see in the future.

I think something will hit the fan when in future one of the TR drivers will slow down in the front of Alonso, and Alonso will consequently lose a race; we will learn very quickly then how Ferrari likes it.

I think the real problem is only HRT who get lapped multiple times. F1 kept them on for making up numbers but they really had no business in F1.

What they should do is enforce the 107% more stringently and we will have less problems with back markers.

[Clatter]

I think the real problem is only HRT who get lapped multiple times. F1 kept them on for making up numbers but they really had no business in F1.

What they should do is enforce the 107% more stringently and we will have less problems with back markers.

How many time were they outside the 107% then?

[jonpollak]

He may not be popular on here...actually, who is?

Exactly...
A forum full of frustrated racing knowitalls/wannabe's with firmly embedded chips on shoulders.

Those that can DO..Those that can't drag down those that have with churlish missives sent from their bedrooms.

Jp

[P123]

This delay in US race with NK is bizzare. HRT guy has mouthful of explanations that his unyielding driving is not against rules, but if so, one could say that this is not a very good track, since with all odds driver already faces, a hostile driver can manipulate race against following car and simply get away with it. I am not sure that is what we want to see in the future.

I think something will hit the fan when in future one of the TR drivers will slow down in the front of Alonso, and Alonso will consequently lose a race; we will learn very quickly then how Ferrari likes it.

Driver loses 0.5s behind a back marker? Happens in every race. Sometimes there are consequences apart from mere time loss, sometimes not. Perhaps you only see it now due to who was involved.

[wepmob2000]

Yeah I am sure the Schumi fanboys of the time absolutely loved Hakkinen. And everyone loved Williams in the mid 90s? LMAO please, get real. Williams was absolutely hated by Senna fans, McLaren fans, Ferrari fans, Schumacher fans....

Were they? Really? Really? I didn't detect any real dislike from those who took a mature view of the sport, i.e: those who didn't behave like football fans. Being unhappy because your man/team didn't win is entirely different from being unhappy because team/driver x,y,z did win. Back in 2008 I was rooting for Hamilton, but didn't really mind when Massa/Ferrari won, since they were gracious in victory, and very gracious in defeat (see Brazil 2008). The same goes for most teams and drivers.... You are confusing typical healthy fan rivalries with a more immature 'fanboyish' attitude, which is mainly the domain of keyboard warriors.....

Ohhhh yeah you are so objective aren't you. Show me a NEUTRAL i.e. non McLaren/Hamilton/Ferrari/Alonso fanboy who thinks that "Horner and his boy-wonder do themselves no favours with their overarching smugness and complete lack of humility when victorious, and their constant whining when things don't go to plan".

What you perceive as "smugness" is simply you being annoyed at someone you have decided you don't like winning.

Unless of course you want to show me some examples of this "smugness" and "lack of humility"

Wrong again, I'm afraid, and as it goes I am very objective I have no reason to dislike Vettel and Red Bull, and am the first to admit that Seb can be extremely likable, his appearance on Top Gear was a perfect example of that. At the Grand Prix, its a different matter, and I do perceive a smugness and arrogance I don't see from most other drivers, regardless of whether I 'support' them or not. Despite being ostensibly a McLaren fan, I have a pretty laid back view of the sport and generally want to see the best drivers winning in a sporting fashion - like Alonso this year. What I don't want to see is overly aggressive and unsporting track tactics, gloating in victory and whining in defeat - all of which I'm afraid Vettel and Horner are guilty of....

[Bartel]

Just because you Horner annoys you because he is beating your team doesn't make him "arrogant" or "smug" like someone else said. That is just your perception because he spoils your party.

Do you even know what the word "arrogant" means? I'd love to see you show me an example of Horner being arrogant. If anything he is one of the class acts of F1.

The fact Red Bull are beating McLaren has nothing to do with it, I applaud that, it would take a great team to beat McLaren. I've watched your posts on this forum and I find it laughable the amount of times you try to speak down on other posters, and excuse me for thinking I have the right to an opinion, but I believe I do, so next time you want to try and take the high ground, maybe instead of telling me I'm wrong and I don't know anything, why don't you ask why I think this? Can your brain compute that or does the red mist come down every time someone says something you don't agree with?

[paulrobs]

The fact Red Bull are beating McLaren has nothing to do with it, I applaud that, it would take a great team to beat McLaren. I've watched your posts on this forum and I find it laughable the amount of times you try to speak down on other posters, and excuse me for thinking I have the right to an opinion, but I believe I do, so next time you want to try and take the high ground, maybe instead of telling me I'm wrong and I don't know anything, why don't you ask why I think this? Can your brain compute that or does the red mist come down every time someone says something you don't agree with?

Luckily, EvanRainer had previously informed me that my opinions of RBR/Horner/Vettel were wrong. I'm a much better person nowadays....

[EvanRainer]

The fact Red Bull are beating McLaren has nothing to do with it, I applaud that, it would take a great team to beat McLaren. I've watched your posts on this forum and I find it laughable the amount of times you try to speak down on other posters, and excuse me for thinking I have the right to an opinion, but I believe I do, so next time you want to try and take the high ground, maybe instead of telling me I'm wrong and I don't know anything, why don't you ask why I think this? Can your brain compute that or does the red mist come down every time someone says something you don't agree with?

How did I tell you, you are wrong? Because I asked you to prove your claim?

Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one. What you DON'T have the right to do, is present your opinion as fact and then expect it to remain unchallenged.

You DON'T have the right to claim whatever you want and then complain when someone asks you to show them so evidence.

And of course you fail completely to present ONE example for your claim. Not that I expected you to do so.

Edited by EvanRainer, 30 November 2012 - 22:17.

[Sakae]

Evan Rainer so much talk about 'fanboyism'. Once you will grow up you will see beeing a fanboy of anybody is childish, take off the posters from your wall and follow the sport like a mature one. Horner, Marko and Vettel, the way they act, the way they talk is genuinly unlikeable. Despite I'm not a fan of anybody else. There is a reason athletes like Michael Jordan, Roger Federer, Mika Hakkinen are liked across the board, while other sportsman dont get as much sympathy.

In general people like successful athlete who stay classy, respect themselfs, respect the sport, respect there opponents. Vettel comes across like a snotty nosed brat. His team follows along with the exception of Newey and Webber. Calling Karthikeyan an 'Idiot' with no apologies after he did everything right, bashing Webber after Vettel turned into him in Turkey, Horner saying Brunno Senna is "stupid" after Vettel drove all the way across the track to hit him, and Vettels authority finger acting ******** after a win. It is no surprise they come across as no class unlikeable bunch of ignorant

I am not sure if it matters for you at all, but Vettel is not alone in calling other drivers idiots. In Napels you may hear that word from other drivers at every second street corner, unless you drive like them (maniacs), and in process disregarding every traffic rule in the book. This year in F1 I also heard the same from Webber, and Button, yet you seems to be strongly focused exclusively on one driver only; funny, isn't it?

[Taxi]

It's normal that people still don't like him. He's the new kid on the block that walked trough the established stars. Horner/vettel don't need to be worried: When Sebastien is 28-30 and get a season or two fighting in a bad car people will start to admire his skills. Schumacher was not really popular when he started to beat Senna/Prost/Piquet/Mansell. But he eventually got his own fans and the respect of others.

If I were Vettel i would prefer to win than to be popular.Its a non issue.

[gillesthegenius]

Were they? Really? Really? I didn't detect any real dislike from those who took a mature view of the sport, i.e: those who didn't behave like football fans. Being unhappy because your man/team didn't win is entirely different from being unhappy because team/driver x,y,z did win. Back in 2008 I was rooting for Hamilton, but didn't really mind when Massa/Ferrari won, since they were gracious in victory, and very gracious in defeat (see Brazil 2008). The same goes for most teams and drivers.... You are confusing typical healthy fan rivalries with a more immature 'fanboyish' attitude, which is mainly the domain of keyboard warriors.....




Wrong again, I'm afraid, and as it goes I am very objective I have no reason to dislike Vettel and Red Bull, and am the first to admit that Seb can be extremely likable, his appearance on Top Gear was a perfect example of that. At the Grand Prix, its a different matter, and I do perceive a smugness and arrogance I don't see from most other drivers, regardless of whether I 'support' them or not. Despite being ostensibly a McLaren fan, I have a pretty laid back view of the sport and generally want to see the best drivers winning in a sporting fashion - like Alonso this year. What I don't want to see is overly aggressive and unsporting track tactics, gloating in victory and whining in defeat - all of which I'm afraid Vettel and Horner are guilty of....

... but most of the other succesful drivers are not guilty of?

Three cheers to objectivity.

[Bartel]

How did I tell you, you are wrong? Because I asked you to prove your claim?

Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one. What you DON'T have the right to do, is present your opinion as fact and then expect it to remain unchallenged.

You DON'T have the right to claim whatever you want and then complain when someone asks you to show them so evidence.

And of course you fail completely to present ONE example for your claim. Not that I expected you to do so.

Firstly you told me why I dislike Horner and told me I had based my opinion on something absurd, secondly you questioned my intelligence, and thirdly you told me what he is without backing up your claim, now how is that third point any different to what I did? Where did I say it was fact? The only thing relating to assholes here is that is the exact place you seem to be pulling your responses from. Im not here to argue with pig headed posters, we can discuss (thats what a forum is for), but what you do, doesn't interest me in the slightest.

[wepmob2000]

... but most of the other succesful drivers are not guilty of?

Three cheers to objectivity.

Not to anything like the degree of Vettel and Horner, particularly with regard to on-track behaviour / sportsmanship, so I am still very objective, haha

[gillesthegenius]

Not to anything like the degree of Vettel and Horner, particularly with regard to on-track behaviour / sportsmanship, so I am still very objective, haha

Let me make it five cheers to objectivity then.

This I say, keeping in mind, 'ten seconds' a certain sportsman spent in his pit box without realising that those very ten seconds would ultimately cost him a third world title that has eluded him ever since.

[Kelateboy]

Let me make it five cheers to objectivity then.

This I say, keeping in mind, 'ten seconds' a certain sportsman spent in his pit box without realising that those very ten seconds would ultimately cost him a third world title that has eluded him ever since.

He was stationary for a good 40s as he was having a discussion about the tyres with his engineer.... Oh and btw, he did not realize that a certain teammate was queeing up behind him

[gillesthegenius]

Objectivity; sportsmanship and on-track behaviour. My foot.

[Iremos]

I'm reminded of a quote - think it might have been Ian Hislop:
"Peter Tatchell thinks people hate him because he's gay - in fact they hate him because he's Peter Tatchell".

This is brilliant!

[DanardiF1]

People like underdogs. That's hardly a surprise is it.

And ironically it's how RBR bill themselves as the underdog that makes them even easier to dislike...

[wepmob2000]

And ironically it's how RBR bill themselves as the underdog that makes them even easier to dislike...

Yes, one of if not the biggest budget in F1, and still the 'underdogs' picked on by the bigger teams.......