53 replies to this topic

[weareracing]

....the Sebastian Vettel/Bruno Senna incident/crash at turn 4, lap 1 in the Brazilian GP.
did the stewards look at this?
If so, what was the outcome.
Not stirring, just curious as it seemed to me at the time that Seb was at fault and just turned in on Bruno.
Thanks for any info.

[showtime]

....the Sebastian Vettel/Bruno Senna incident/crash at turn 4, lap 1 in the Brazilian GP.
did the stewards look at this?
If so, what was the outcome.
Not stirring, just curious as it seemed to me at the time that Seb was at fault and just turned in on Bruno.
Thanks for any info.

There was no investigation.

[weareracing]

Thanks for that Showtime.
That surprises me somewhat.

[EvanRainer]

It's already been discussed but there was nothing to look at because it was a clear racing incident. It only looks like Vettel "turned into" Senna from Senna's onboard. Senna wasn't directly behind Vettel he came from two cars back and was not even visible to Vettel due to DiResta being in between them.

[weareracing]

Thanks EvanRainer, wasn't aware it had been discussed, sorry for the duplicate thread.
Sad person I am having just watched the race again, it looked from the TV footage that Seb took a high line and came in on an unusual line to the corner.

[EvanRainer]

Thanks EvanRainer, wasn't aware it had been discussed, sorry for the duplicate thread.
Sad person I am having just watched the race again, it looked from the TV footage that Seb took a high line and came in on an unusual line to the corner.

There is a good link somewhere that shows the incident from multiple angles including overhead.

Vettel's line in the corner had nothing to do with the incident. Senna was not the car directly behind Vettel, he can't be expected to account for multiple cars behind him especially when they weren't visible.

There was nothing wrong with Senna's move either. If you look at video it becomes clear that DiResta obscured Vettel and Senna from each other. Vettel never knew Senna was even there and Senna couldn't see Vettel until the last moment either.

[CrucialXtreme]

....the Sebastian Vettel/Bruno Senna incident/crash at turn 4, lap 1 in the Brazilian GP.
did the stewards look at this?
If so, what was the outcome.
Not stirring, just curious as it seemed to me at the time that Seb was at fault and just turned in on Bruno.
Thanks for any info.

Everyone has their own take on the situation. Here's video from Sky which is the best because it shows it from overhead. On-board with either driver sucks because you can't see anything until its too late.

[kpchelsea]

Everyone has their own take on the situation. Here's video from Sky which is the best because it shows it from overhead. On-board with either driver sucks because you can't see anything until its too late.

Looking at that Vettel takes an unusual wide line and its purely a racing incident

[Alfisti]

I can understand that his view was blocked but the man on the outside cannot expect to just swoop over to the apex when there's a gaggle of cars about. If you're that wide you stay wide but yeah, it looked like no one could see each other anyway.

[Brother Fox]

If Bruno was the one wide and swept across and took out Vettel, id bet the farm there'd be an investigation.

[Alfisti]

This whole blaming the inside guy by defaul thing is bugging me, as you can tell. One has a right to take the inside line, the car on the outside needs to allow some space, if inside man washes wide and causes a crash then yeah it's his fault. But wide man cannot just take the apex like no one is there.

[Bruce]

If Bruno was the one wide and swept across and took out Vettel, id bet the farm there'd be an investigation.

Absolutely.

Fact is, Hulkenberg's accident was far less egregious than Vettel's, although it did lead to Hamilton's unfortunate race end. However, Hulkenburg simply lost traction at the end of the braking and turn in for turn 1 - THAT was a racing accident. In the case of Vettel, it was not premeditated - but it certainly falls into the "avoidable accident" category, and, although this is only their opinion, Brundle and co. immediately exonerated Senna.

Perhaps they felt that Vettel had already suffered enough, being chucked to the back of the field? I'll bet senna disagrees though.

Regardless - it's meaningless, as in all likelihood the later safety car would have brought him far enough up to get the minimum spot he needed.

[halifaxf1fan]

Everyone has their own take on the situation. Here's video from Sky which is the best because it shows it from overhead. On-board with either driver sucks because you can't see anything until its too late.

That was a very quick reaction and save by Raikkonen. If he had collided with Vettel at that speed the Red Bull would have been done.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 30 November 2012 - 03:19.

[CrucialXtreme]

That was a very quick reaction and save by Raikkonen. If he had collided with Vettel at that speed the Red Bull would have been done.

Agreed! It shows Kimi's awareness of the bigger/larger situation at hand and he didn't want to be responsible for costing a driver, or at least being blamed for, costing a driver the WDC. Kudos to him for the lighting quick response time.

I do believe its a racing incident with no particular driver at fault but I do also agree with some that if it was Senna(or Massa for instance) that came into Seb(or Lewis or even Fernando) people would be up in arms depending on whether or not it was their driver on the receiving end of the collision.
It's quite easy to call it a racing incident, because there are many different factors involved, Evan touched on the visibility issue, that's definitely at play here. But Alfisti definitely has a very valid point regardless who the offending driver/s are.

This whole blaming the inside guy by defaul thing is bugging me, as you can tell. One has a right to take the inside line, the car on the outside needs to allow some space, if inside man washes wide and causes a crash then yeah it's his fault. But wide man cannot just take the apex like no one is there.

100% agree regardless of who is involved.

Edited by CrucialXtreme, 30 November 2012 - 03:37.

[itsademo]

All we need to do is remember its the first lap only a moron does not think if I go wide into the first corner there is not going to be a car going for the apex on the inside!!
Alonso showed how you take the first corner entry wide and stay wide and he took places because of it.
Vettel went wide to apex and went backwards rapidly.
Its his big weakness spaceial awareness, he lacks badly as we have seen repeatedly.
But having said that it was stupid and a silly mistake but clearly not deliberate.
He paid the price (thought Senna may disagree)
end off.
IMHO of course

[apoka]

Vettel probably didn't see him and vice versa with Di Resta in between, so it's probably a racing incident.

If you stop the video at the 50m mark, you can see that Senna was still 2 car lengths behind, so he was much faster (also compared to other cars) into that corner indeed. Without Vettel seeing him, there was not much reason to stay to the right of the racing line. And I don't think that Vettel should always expect someone to go inside at that speed trying to overtake two cars. In hindsight, of course, he should have done it, but if you always do this then you lose a lot of time in the first laps - especially in the wet when you have much more grip on the racing line. Actually, I put more blame on Senna, because he was taking that corner at high speed (more than required for overtaking Di Resta) and taking the risk of spinning in the first lap of a GP in wet conditions. We have to keep in mind that drivers did not know the conditions at that point.

Edited by apoka, 30 November 2012 - 07:45.

[sofarapartguy]

What amuses me is that there was no ivestigation at all. I don't mind that stewards didn't punish Vettel, but heck he took off Senna and caused a crash. And nobody didn't even care to look at it.

[sofarapartguy]

Vettel probably didn't see him and vice versa with Di Resta in between, so it's probably a racing incident.

If you stop the video at the 50m mark, you can see that Senna was still 2 car lengths behind, so he was much faster (also compared to other cars) into that corner indeed. Without Vettel seeing him, there was not much reason to stay to the right of the racing line. And I don't think that Vettel should always expect someone to go inside at that speed trying to overtake two cars. In hindsight, of course, he should have done it, but if you always do this then you lose a lot of time in the first laps - especially in the wet when you have much more grip on the racing line. Actually, I put more blame on Senna, because he was taking that corner at high speed (more than required for overtaking Di Resta) and taking the risk of spinning in the first lap of a GP in wet conditions. We have to keep in mind that drivers did not know the conditions at that point.

Senna was on a perfect racing line - he would've made that corner without any troubles had there not been Seb.

[Konsta]

Senna was on a perfect racing line - he would've made that corner without any troubles had there not been Seb.

I disagree - at the point of contact there was plenty of room between BS and the apex. He carried too much speed (thinking he could outbrake the ForceIndia that much) and went wide.

[garoidb]

There seems to more latititude for deeming such contacts to be "racing incidents" on the first lap. I imagine they would have had a quick look at it to see if something outrageous had been done, but not followed up with a detailed investigation.

[EvanRainer]

Some of the reasoning here is incredible.

First of all, SENNA IS NOT TO BLAME. IT'S A RACING INCIDENT.

Secondly, the argument that Vettel took Senna out and that Senna had the racing line is inane. SENNA WAS NOT OVERTAKING VETTEL TO CLAIM THAT VETTEL TURNED IN ON HIM.

Maybe from now on every car should go wide in every corner just in case someone from three cars back makes a move. Vettel did what he should have, made sure he had cleared DiResta. It was impossible to account for a car that he never saw and never knew would be there.

People keep arguing as if Senna was right behind Vettel and overtaking him.

[tifosiMac]

Seb should have checked his mirrors as Bruno was alongside. Racing incident and Seb was lucky it didn't end his title hopes.

[AlexS]

The fault here is obviously Vettel, and there wasn't any investigation because the Championship was being disputed and it is "bad PR" that a title could be decided in this way.


F1 is a Show, that is the reason.

[EvanRainer]

Seb should have checked his mirrors as Bruno was alongside. Racing incident and Seb was lucky it didn't end his title hopes.

Senna was obscured by diResta. This is the whole point, Vettel couldn't see him. Do you know what F1 mirrors are like? They are a joke. Not to mention the conditions.

[EvanRainer]

The fault here is obviously Vettel, and there wasn't any investigation because the Championship was being disputed and it is "bad PR" that a title could be decided in this way.


F1 is a Show, that is the reason.

Whatever fits your agenda pal.

[abc]

Racing Incident, there was still place to the inside for Senna, he took risk going as quick as that. Vettel could also go that half meter wider line, but its probably not easy to go on more slippery part. They didnt see each other, thats why they collided.

Suggesting any sort of punishment for Vettel in this situation is f... joke obviously.

[george1981]

Martin Brundle said at the time that Vettel should have expected someone to be on the inside line and left space, regardless of whether he could see them or not. It was the first lap and they'd been racing 3/4 abreast up until the corner so it was likely someone might have been there. It was a racing incident but Vettel could have done more to avoid it, maybe nerves and the bad start affected his concentration.
I thought it was rather telling that it wasn't investigated, had the stewards thought Senna was at fault he might have faced a similar penalty to Grosjean for taking out a championship contender.

[DrivenF1]

Vettel was at fault for the Raikkonen, Senna and Kobayashi incidents so probably should have received an investigation at least. He would have won the title regardless of the outcome.

[tifosiMac]

Senna was obscured by diResta. This is the whole point, Vettel couldn't see him. Do you know what F1 mirrors are like? They are a joke. Not to mention the conditions.

I would say Vettel was more at fault in that incident but don't think any punishment should have been brought to him. It was a racing incident pure and simple. Yes I do know what F1 mirrors are like and they are not easy things to use, but in a situation where you know you are bunched up amongst other cars, its usually a time when they are used the most. The incident could have been avoided by Vettel taking a slightly wider line IMO. Senna had a Sauber up his backside and had made the pass on two cars with Seb coming back across for the racing line. Vettel was very lucky he didn't take himself out and hopefully he'll learn the lesson finally he didn't learn in Malaysia.

[fdspd]

I think Vettel is so used to having a nice 1 sec buffer by Turn 2 that that would've been his usual sweeping line. Regular midpack fighters wouldn't have taken that line. I'm not saying Vettel can't race or any such thing, just that being in the midfield at the start is something he's not used to in recent times.

[EvanRainer]

I would say Vettel was more at fault in that incident but don't think any punishment should have been brought to him. It was a racing incident pure and simple. Yes I do know what F1 mirrors are like and they are not easy things to use, but in a situation where you know you are bunched up amongst other cars, its usually a time when they are used the most. The incident could have been avoided by Vettel taking a slightly wider line IMO. Senna had a Sauber up his backside and had made the pass on two cars with Seb coming back across for the racing line. Vettel was very lucky he didn't take himself out and hopefully he'll learn the lesson finally he didn't learn in Malaysia.

Vettel DID stay wide and make sure Raikonen and diResta behind him were not diving on the inside, then turned in. Senna came from NOWHERE. How many cars behind him can a driver possibly be expected to account for?

Malaysia? Seriously?

[tifosiMac]

Vettel DID stay wide and make sure Raikonen and diResta behind him were not diving on the inside, then turned in. Senna came from NOWHERE. How many cars behind him can a driver possibly be expected to account for?

Malaysia? Seriously?

Vettel was wide on entry and closed the space as he attempted to rejoin the racing line on the apex. He may not have been able to see a car alongside but he should have anticipated a car was there. Simple as that. Vettel has a history of not using his mirrors when alongside drivers and they either need an overhaul on the design, or he needs to anticipate more.

I'm not arguing this point because I think its pretty clear cut who carried more of the blame. Many of the pundits and F1 journalists are of the opinion Vettel was lucky not to take himself out. Simples.

[EvanRainer]

You know what, whatever, I give up.

[tifosiMac]

You don't need to convince me.

[TT6]

... does Ferrari need a clarification on this matter too, perhaps? Is the Spanish press already at work to get Vettel disqualified because of reckless driving?

Let's reopen something-week!

[tifosiMac]

... does Ferrari need a clarification on this matter too, perhaps? Is the Spanish press already at work to get Vettel disqualified because of reckless driving?

Ferrari are lodging a complaint against Christmas so this isn't too far off the radar.

The Ferrari F1 team has announced that it is ‘evaluating’ whether to launch an official protest against Christmas.

‘Last December we became aware that a man travelled the world giving gifts to children whilst wearing a suit that made unauthorised use of the signature red and white Ferrari colours,’ said Maranello spokesman Paul Oozer. ‘Since then we have been carefully examining footage of this ‘Christmas’ event and, although we did not mention it at the time, we now believe we have a case against the gentleman who infringed our copyright, Mr Claus, which we can string out in an over-dramatic and pathetically childish way.’

http://sniffpetrol.c...enge-christmas/

[stillOrange]

Ferrari are lodging a complaint against Christmas so this isn't too far off the radar.


http://sniffpetrol.c...enge-christmas/

So it's not Muslims that question Christmas but Ferrari ?!?!

I think FIA needs to step in NOW before it is too late and ban Hamilton.

[Konsta]

So it's not Muslims that question Christmas but Ferrari ?!?!

I think FIA needs to step in NOW before it is too late and ban Hamilton.

Maldonando and Grosjean too just to be on the safe side.

[apoka]

http://sniffpetrol.c...enge-christmas/

I wonder whether people will leave da space in the chimney for Alonso.

[matzy]

The incident was so early in the race that I think it is hard to suggest it was anything other than a racing incident. Basically, I think the racings stewards tend to be more relaxed about incidents at the start, because all hell is usually breaking loose!

[Fourjays]

What amuses me is that there was no ivestigation at all. I don't mind that stewards didn't punish Vettel, but heck he took off Senna and caused a crash. And nobody didn't even care to look at it.

That was what surprised me too. Pretty much all incidents are investigated and then penalised these days. While I didn't think it deserved a penalty by any means (was a racing incident, just like Hulkenburg on Hamilton) I was shocked that there was not even an investigation. Stupid FIA yet again.

Would be nice if in future they could treat all incidents equally and then only penalise those where there is a gross negligence on the part of one driver (like Grosjean at Spa). And additionally, come down like a tonne of bricks on those who use their car as a weapon (Maldonado at Spa/Monaco). The current philosophy of penalties based on who gets damaged, how much and by who, is damaging to the sport IMHO.

[EvanRainer]

To be fair, just because there was not official "investigation" announced doesn't mean they didn't look at the footage.

[CrucialXtreme]

To be fair, just because there was not official "investigation" announced doesn't mean they didn't look at the footage.

+1

[karne]

As someone else said earlier in the thread, we all know that if it had been the other way around, Bruno probably would have been DSQ immediately!

The fact that there wasn't even an investigation was a joke. The stewards didn't have enough balls to correctly penalise a championship contender. Vettel was allowed to get away with destroying Senna's race purely because he is Vettel.

[boldhakka]

Very unusual line by Vettel there. Clearly his mistake and almost lost the WDC because of it. More than made up for it during the rest of the race.

[AlexS]

Whatever fits your agenda pal.

My agenda? How do you explain that Hulkenberg got a penalty because if lost the rear of his car just a bit over the limit - it was nothing outrageous - in a wet track ruining Hamilton race but nothing happens to Vettel by doing much worse - it could even have ended his race -?

[undersquare]

As someone else said earlier in the thread, we all know that if it had been the other way around, Bruno probably would have been DSQ immediately!

The fact that there wasn't even an investigation was a joke. The stewards didn't have enough balls to correctly penalise a championship contender. Vettel was allowed to get away with destroying Senna's race purely because he is Vettel.

Yeah I agree. Well, DT let's say.

Great shame for Senna, his home race and quite likely his last F1 race.

[wingwalker]

IMO it's on Vettel, but stewards often let such things go in the first corners of the GP. It's the 4th corner of the race and a one after a straight, It's not unusual at all to have cars going two wide through a corner at this stage. Vettel was on the outside at the entry and should have stayed outside instead of cutting towards the apex - that's asking for an accident, especially just after the start. Also, there was no need for him to do such an risky move AT ALL, if his race and championship campaign would have ended there (and it was so close) he would be the only one to blame.

[Racer3]

Great shame for Senna, his home race and quite likely his last F1 race.

That's why I was really impressed by Senna who didn't show any anger when interviewed thereafter and called it a racing incident, arguing that neither of them could see the other one. IMHO, typical Bile con Karne...

[scheivlak]

How do you explain that Hulkenberg got a penalty because if lost the rear of his car just a bit over the limit - it was nothing outrageous - in a wet track ruining Hamilton race but nothing happens to Vettel by doing much worse - it could even have ended his race -?

It was Senna who was doing much worse by divebombing into that corner and it could have ended Vettel's race.
I think the only reason why there wasn't an investigation was because the offender was already out.