42 replies to this topic

[tifoso]

I gotta say I'm bored with these whining posts about Ferrari cheating. I'm reminded of an old quote from a NASCAR crew chief when asked about the frequency of cheating: "Does a bear s**t in the woods?"

They all cheat as much as they can without getting caught. I think McLaren has been running traction control since 1998 -- there were photos proving this three years ago (i.e., rear brake discs glowing under acceleration). So what.

If you don't want to watch a racing series where money can buy the best talent and the best technology, watch IRL or NASCAR -- spec series.

These things go in cycles....since I've been watching F1, McLaren, Williams, McLaren, and now, finally, Ferrari have dominated. (I didn't include Benetton because as we saw in 1996, 94-95 were the result of the driver, not a dominant car.)

I enjoyed reading the replies to my post asking when people started following F1. Many have been for a long time and are Ferrari fans. They've been waiting since 1979. And we're going to enjoy it.

I think we need to start an anti-Ferrari forum so those who aren't objective have a place to post and reply

[F1Rulz]

Mika's exit from the pit box on his second stop was very strange. Listen to the engine and note how the rear wheel behave. I didn't think much of it at first then watching the replay the wife made note of it too... makes you wonder???

[Mrv]

Yes I noticed that also about Mika's engine sound. It was strange and I have never heard that before.

[tifoso]

In defense of McLaren (can't believe I'm saying this), they had some wild exhaust "pipes" mounted on the top of the side pods just in front of the rear wheels. I posted about them here as I'd never seen them before. Several people replied that McLaren had used these before on certain tracks. Maybe venting the exhaust different made the engine sound different.

[GraDee]

Those funnels have been used dince the beginning of 2000 on and off.

They aren't exhausts, they are vents from the rads to aid cooling on the hotter tracks.

Ferrari experimented with them befor the French GP but decided against them. I think they employed them at 1 race towards the end of the season though.

[Romulus]

Of course Ferrari don't use TC. They simply built a car that is way much better than all the rest (probably with alien help) and can drive circles against the nearest competitor. This combined with the god like driving abilities of MS and RB is the natural explanation .

OMG im starting to feel like Frans. But for gods sake open your eyes...
Even the other drivers seem to think that something stinks

[Smooth]

Originally posted by Romulus
Of course Ferrari don't use TC. They simply built a car that is way much better than all the rest (probably with alien help) and can drive circles against the nearest competitor. This combined with the god like driving abilities of MS and RB is the natural explanation .

OMG im starting to feel like Frans. But for gods sake open your eyes...
Even the other drivers seem to think that something stinks

Ferrari's 'domination' is still much less severe than that of McLaren the last few years. No comments on that, though. Ron Dennis is an angel, huh? And by 'other drivers' you are referring to the one who was punted off the track by a Ferrari, and then held up by a much less experienced driver in a Ferrari powered car? Yeah, he wouldn't have any motivation to throw about hints and allegations.

[Blue]

Best defence for Ferrari I have come with so far is that: If they are cheating they wouldn’t do it so clearly.

So if they are cheating it’s likely that drivers wouldn’t know that. Well dunno how that would be possible

[Greg Boyce]

i'm new to your site but not new to racing by any means. What i saw from malaysia was nothing short of ridiculous! The Ferrari's were out accelerating everyone one the wet bits like the others were in F3 cars. How intermediates gave this advantage I don't know. But something smells a little fishy in Maranello.

The unfortunate thing is that this blind pace will be put down to MS god like ability behind the wheel and not the car. It will only get blame from MS followers if MS doesn't win.

Maybe MS ability in changing cond. comes down to a very clever "form" of traction control- which his cars have been accused of having since 94- and not MS himself. MS did't look like Superman in a GP car in 92, 93. He was often looking over his should for Martin Brundle. I think MS is good but not as good as most would think.

I'm with Prost go back to manual boxes, no driver aids of any kind, big fat tyres, little wings, and may the fastest driver- not engineer-WIN.

[tifoso]

Greg,

Welcome. Don't agree with many of your comments in the post, but do heartily agree with this one:

I'm with Prost go back to manual boxes, no driver aids of any kind, big fat tyres, little wings, and may the fastest driver- not engineer-WIN.

[Chris G.]

Traction control doesn't seem to explain the faster straight-line speed of the Ferrari. Are they somehow cheating with that now???

I would expect Ferrari to do nothing less than EVERYTHING POSSIBLE to win. Ron Dennis does, why shouldn't Ferrari? If they do something wrong and get caught, they should be punished.

With all the focus on cheating and TC, there is no way Ferrari is doing anything illegal right now. They probably developed something, ran it past the FIA and were cleared, and only they know about it. Not a big mystery really.

[PrixTex]

If Ferrari have traction control, then why does Schumacher make such terrible starts. And, why do the McLarens make such good ones.

[Amadeus]

Oh boy! How many times!!!
IF Ferrari/MS/anyone was cheating and had the sort of FIA collusion that is normally refered to on this BB don't you think the other teams, fed up of racing at an unfair advantage would form a breakaway race series (as they did in the US, and as innumerable sports have)????

F1 is about innovation - if Ferrari have 'twisted' the rules to get a performance advantage then great - that is what the sport used to be about (Colin Chapman must be spinning in his grave - none of his cars would pass scruitenering these days)

ALL teams would cheat if they could!

Manual gearboxes? Great idea, but who will pick up the pieces when Driver A goes from 5th to 4th rather than 5th to 6th, rapidly decelerates and Driver B, right behind him, launches off the back of his car and into the crowd? Remind you of Australia?

As has been said TC would help through the bends but the two Ferraris breezed past everyone else on straights as well - must be ruinning a bigger capacity engine - the cunning fiends!

[scokim]

Originally posted by Amadeus

Manual gearboxes? Great idea, but who will pick up the pieces when Driver A goes from 5th to 4th rather than 5th to 6th, rapidly decelerates and Driver B, right behind him, launches off the back of his car and into the crowd? Remind you of Australia?

Since when a manual gearbox caused an accident or fatality ? and even if it does, is this solved by having an auto box ?

[Vetinary]

Originally posted by Amadeus

F1 is about innovation - if Ferrari have 'twisted' the rules to get a performance advantage then great - that is what the sport used to be about (Colin Chapman must be spinning in his grave - none of his cars would pass scruitenering these days)

I thought F1 is all about racing.
As for the manual gearboxes, I didn't see them in australia, and yet a car had launched itself.

Originally posted by Amadeus

ALL teams would cheat if they could!

Agreed. However, you should have said : All the teams are cheating because they can, but sometimes they just don't get it right ;)

[Amadeus]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Amadeus

ALL teams would cheat if they could!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Agreed. However, you should have said : All the teams are cheating because they can, but sometimes they just don't get it right

spot on!

As to your point about F1 is about racing - you're right it is, but innovation has always been a major part, groundbreaking and exciting cars that push the performance envelope coupled with drivers of sublime ability that can take them to the very edge of the performance envelope, competing as a team - that is F1. Too many F1 'fans' concentrate on the driver when F1 is a team sport. Like in soccer, just because Michael Owen scores the goal doesn't mean that he is the one to credit with the entire victory. The guy who passed him the ball had a part to play. Likewise in F1 the designers, engineers, mechanics, etc all play a part in putting a car on the podium.

My point about manual gearboxes is that a move back to them is not the global panacea that some think it is:

- manuals would lead to more DNFs through the higher wear rates.

- A true manual system would dramatically increase the chances of a repeat of the Australia incident. You are of course correct when you say that there were no manuals there, but the explanation originally offered by JV was that RS slowed dramatically in front of him and he didn't have time to react. Imagine that hapening two or three times a lap as drivers miss gears.

Less aero, more mech grip makes racing more fun!

[BuzzingHornet]

Traction control could help your straightline speed because with extra traction you could come out of a corner faster and carry that speed down the straight... for the first half of the straight or more you would have a mph advantage. also the power would go down smoothly on the track

Chris G., the reason TC is coming back is cos they can't police it... so they are letting everyone have it (which implies that someone already does surely). So if not Ferrari, who? who is it that is forcing the FIA to give in?

[Ursus]

Originally posted by BuzzingHornet
So if not Ferrari, who? who is it that is forcing the FIA to give in?

Mac?
Williams?
Jordan?
Jaguar?
BAR?
Benetton/Renault?

[Peter]

Oh why did I not realise it earlier - of course Ferrari are cheating!

Not because they are using traction control but because they don't / can't prove that they aren't!!!

Actually, the real reason that they are fastest in a straight line is that they are using their old design of 12 cylinder engines, with only 10 cylinders switched on until they are out of the scrutineer's view on the track. Then MS pushes the green button on his steering wheel and gets 20% extra power


Why is it so hard for some people to believe that it was just an inspired choice of tyre - the intermediates just happened to be ideal for the conditions - coupled with one of the best drivers in those conditions who was fired up because he had just lost the lead.

Martin Brundle, in his race commentory, could not understand why the other teams did not pit for inters. The extra speed would easily have made up for the pit time lost.

[Cinquecento]

Yeh, why not admit they all try whatever they can, because that surely is the case. A journalist in the local paper had the goddamned nerve to preach about how Adrian Newey hates traction control because Benetton's TC in 1994 led to Senna's death, and now that Ferrari have TC already, Newey cars have a disadvantage until Barcelona... what the hell kind of ******** insinuation is that?

You can get away with a lot in a local little newspaper, but when this fecker believes that in his attempt to lick his wound he doesn't have to have any regard either to facts or to the feelings of Finnish Ferrari and MS fans, it's time to send him a little e-mail. Just to help him drop the compulsive public masturbation disorder.

[Spot]

During the hyperbole following Frentzen's supposed allegation of illegal software on the Ferrari engine, no-one actually denied that Ferrari have traction control. What they denied is that Ferrari have a REactive traction control system. So, obviously, what they have is a legal PROactive traction control system.

This is obviously why:

a) the FIA have been forced into allowing reactive TC back into F1 (no-one else (apart from the big bad Mac) can afford the time and expense of developing something similar thus giving Ferrari an unfair advantage), and:

b) Ferrari and it's customers wanted it delayed as long as possible.

[BuzzingHornet]

Traction control is banned in ANY FORM, they are ALL illegal... there is no such thing as LEGAL traction control, at least not until Barca. You can dress it up or call it what you like but they should not be using it. Any technology that is 'reactive' means that it is in essence reacting to the cack-handedness of the driver and apologising for him to the engine

[JDeRosa]

I've got two things to say to all you anti-Ferrari.............

GROW UP AND STOP WHINGING!!!!

Sick and tired of these threads turning into seas of allegations. What ever happened to good sportsmanship. Beaten fair and square.
How many times is this record going to be played??? :yawn:

[king_crud]

*My point about manual gearboxes is that a move back to them is not the global panacea that some think it is:

- manuals would lead to more DNFs through the higher wear rates.

- A true manual system would dramatically increase the chances of a repeat of the Australia incident. You are of course correct when you say that there were no manuals there, but the explanation originally offered by JV was that RS slowed dramatically in front of him and he didn't have time to react. Imagine that hapening two or three times a lap as drivers miss gears. *

er...............F1 used manual gearboxes until 1989, and i don't know how long you kids have been watching but i don't recall drivers missing gears two or three times a lap, and when they used to miss gears there were never any accidents from it. At least it would give more element of chance and bring back some skill into what is fast becoming a sport for robots

[TheDestroyer]

Smooth,

McLaren's "domination" was also built up over a number of years - it didn't happen over night.

When you look at Ferrari pre-Schumi that team was in complete shambles - sorry to all you Alesi fans but he and Ferrari did not have a positive symbiotic relationship.

When you consider that McLaren's "domination" was still frought with Schumi kicking them in the tail with a sub-par car on more than several occasions. Even when McLaren "dominated" the Ferrari-Schumi pairing still were able to take it to McLaren.

Domination would have been Schumi in that McLaren when Mika won those championships - that would have been awesome.

[BuzzingHornet]

you're underestimating Hakkinen of you say that, remember his 1998 form, he was awesome.

[TheDestroyer]

king_crud,

I agree. The unknown, introduced, safety issues could have tremendous adverse effects to driver, spectator, and marshall safety.

We're talking about some damn powerful, fast, quick cars that require every moment of attention to keep them on the road - witness Schumi's momentary loss of concentration (and my near damn heart attack) at Indy last year... These cars are pretty close to flying a jet fighter...

I wish all of those techno phobes would leave this damn sport alone and quite trying to turn it into CART/IRL/NASCAR.

If I wanted to watch a sport with tons of regulations aimed at "levelling" the playing field I would watch CART/IRL/NASCAR and get bored to f%^&*(g tears....

I watch this sport because the technology is awesome, it's damn exciting, and it also requires tremendous amounts of strategy.

[Damop]

Originally posted by BuzzingHornet
you're underestimating Hakkinen of you say that, remember his 1998 form, he was awesome.

Or were his illegal driver aids awesome

Addendum - Mika is a fantastic driver, but while people are making silly accusations about Ferrari's TC and neatly ignoring the tire choice, might as well use the same blind logic agains Mika.

[Spot]

As a rule of thumb, a system which detects wheelspin and reacts to it (a closed-loop control system) is currently illegal, whereas a system which includes pre-emptive measures built into a fixed engine map is not.

This comes from the Autosport News website. It clearly states that PROactive TC is legal, as it is not a closed loop system.

[TheDestroyer]

Damop,

Last years awesome continual race starts by Mika make me sit up and think that some for of traction control was being used... Not to say that Ferrari weren't themselves, but I think TC is more readily apparent from a dead stop.

[The RedBaron]

It's not only TC that is coming back in Spain,Ferrari was against this, not because of traction control alone, as there were many other things to be done after Barcelona and they were simply not ready at the beginning of the season.

[BuzzingHornet]

RedBaron, i'm not saying this this is my opinion but the cynics might say that by Barcelona, any top team that was cheating might have a very handy lead in the WDC/WCC ;) Thats the flip side of the coin. As for Ferrari not being ready come on, pull the other one They are one of the world's great car companies... if Minardi had said that then I might have believed them but Ferrari..? they could just throw somw money at it

[The RedBaron]

Spot- your about two weeks behind, the finer points of TC has been discussed over and over and over again.....try looking at page 2 or 3 of the threads listing......there's plenty of TC threads for you to get your teeth in. The whole subject has got so stale.....this seems to be the the last bastion for the antis to cling onto, since the Reds are soundly kicking everyone's arse on the track.

It's amazing how many sore losers we have on this BB....wonder if they are such negative individuals in real life???

[TheDestroyer]

So Red, does that mean a sore loser is incredibly positive?

[The RedBaron]

sore loser= negativity, a character weakness:drunk:

[RedFever]

Buzzing, Ferrari is not using traction control. It is utilizing engine mappings to create a limit on the wheel spin in an anticipatory manner, without reacting to real conditions utilizing sensors. And indeed in the current rules nowhere it is stated you can't do that. Hence it is legal. By the way, McLaren is utilizing the same system, just not as efficient, but pretty close if you respect HHF's opinion.

PS. please keep in mind that if you DSQ the 4 drivers that were utilizing this system last year, Michael, Rubens, Mika and David, it will still be a Schumacher that wins the 2000 titile.......

[TheDestroyer]

Red,

well if i could type....

mean to say sore winner = positive

[coyoteBR]

Let's remind the late 80's and early 90's. McLaren was so dominant they won 15 of 16 races a year. People all gazzed in wonder about the miraculous Honda Engine and the fantastic habilities of the Professor Alain Prost and senna. The same engine* in a Lotus, made Nelson Piquet's year miserable. Was solelly the fault of Gerard Doucarrouge project?

Now, the same happens today. The diference is that Ferrari and Michael Schumacher are cheating.

Makes sense



* and I do mean the same engine. Sauber and Prost today use a one-year old Ferrari.

[Spot]

Originally posted by The RedBaron
Spot- your about two weeks behind, the finer points of TC has been discussed over and over and over again

I have been reading these threads over and over. No-one, however, pointed out that Ferrari have admitted to using a legal form of traction control, and that Mosley has acknowledged that fact, which is what I am doing.

I am not being a sore loser, or saying that Ferrari shouldn't do this - people seem to be putting words into my mouth.

FACT - Ferrari are using proactive traction control, and have admitted as much

FACT - the FIA are aware of this

FACT - HHF pointed this out on his website

FACT - the method used for applying this TC is legal, as it does not involve a closed-loop system

GENERALLY ACCEPTED - Mac are doing the same, as are most, if not all, of the other teams

[Smooth]

Originally posted by TheDestroyer
Smooth,

McLaren's "domination" was also built up over a number of years - it didn't happen over night.

When you look at Ferrari pre-Schumi that team was in complete shambles - sorry to all you Alesi fans but he and Ferrari did not have a positive symbiotic relationship.

When you consider that McLaren's "domination" was still frought with Schumi kicking them in the tail with a sub-par car on more than several occasions. Even when McLaren "dominated" the Ferrari-Schumi pairing still were able to take it to McLaren.

Domination would have been Schumi in that McLaren when Mika won those championships - that would have been awesome.

McLaren has more 'ebbed and flowed' based on design changes and engine choice. Ron Dennis is a shrewd team manager, and getting the right powerplant, and top designers is paramount to his success. Did they build up to their 1998 level? Of course, but the symbiosis of Newey, Bridgestone, Hakkinen and Ilmor all had as much to do with it as the appointment of Luca Montezemelo at Maranello. Luca took a team with no clear direction, kicked some ass, appointed Jean Todt, who immediatly cleaned house, recruited Schumacher/Brawn/Byrne, and set about working toward what they have now. It wasn't overnight, and I would bet they have worked a tad harder than McLaren the last couple years. they wanted it more, it seemed. Ferrari have never had the luxury of chasing down the flavor of the day in the engine dept., and they now ARE the flavor of the day. If (when) regulations change again, we may see someone else react quicker, and better, and we may well see McLaren (or Williams, Jordan, etc....) partner with someone else and dominate. McLaren and Ferrari are the benchmark currently, and Williams has always been top-flite, but are just getting their back after the loss of Renault and Adrian Newey. Jordan is a wild card, but they will be a strong contender for a few years.

I agree that Schumacher in a McLaren on 98/99 would have been a bit more boring, and I savor what we have had as fans...... to bad so many others seem so bitter! They just don't appreciate it!

[355 boy]

Re-active Traction Control or Clever Engine Mapping for idiots.

1. The engineers know that at a given speed in a given gear with maximum traction, the engine can increase revs at a given rate.

2. The engine mapping will only allow revs to rise at this rate by cutting fuel ignition.

Result - psuedo tration control.

Real Traction control.

1. Wheel spins

2. Spin dectected by sensor.

3. Drive from engine decreased until wheel stops spinning.

See the difference?

So whats everybodies problem?

Some teams just have better electronic engineer than others.

One more point. Has Ferarri not lost a single member of their electronic design team in the past x years. I don't know for sure but I would imagine that at least one programmer has left for another team, after all, staff are constantly poached in F1. If one has left, isn't it likely that he would spill the beans to his new employer? You would have to be particularily senior in the relevant department to know if illegal TC was being employed.

[Amadeus]

Originally posted by king_crud
as posted by Amadeus
*My point about manual gearboxes is that a move back to them is not the global panacea that some think it is:

- manuals would lead to more DNFs through the higher wear rates.

- A true manual system would dramatically increase the chances of a repeat of the Australia incident. You are of course correct when you say that there were no manuals there, but the explanation originally offered by JV was that RS slowed dramatically in front of him and he didn't have time to react. Imagine that hapening two or three times a lap as drivers miss gears. *

er...............F1 used manual gearboxes until 1989, and i don't know how long you kids have been watching but i don't recall drivers missing gears two or three times a lap, and when they used to miss gears there were never any accidents from it. At least it would give more element of chance and bring back some skill into what is fast becoming a sport for robots

I really don't want to get dragged into a who can pee higher contest, but I have been watching F1 for long enough, thank you! I also have driven competitivly in rally cars and karts and have enough mechanical understanding to have a little bit of an idea what I am talking about.

Manuals cause drivers to miss gears - that is a fact, otherwise people wouldn't want them back! It's this missed gear and subsequent sudden loss of speed that causes the overtaking oppertunity. In a field of 22 drivers all driving on the limit there will be missed gears somewhere in the field two or three times in a lap. At moments of high stress (eg the dive for the first corner) this is more likely and that could cause carnage. In a recent accident a driver blamed a coleague for slowing unexpectedly. I pointed out that this sort of error is more probable (and so the type of accident more probable) in a field using manual boxes.

You are right, drivers did use manuals back then. But they also had 101 other differences in thier cars to today - turbos (for some of the time), or active suspension, different fuels, different aero regs, etc. Changing one element in isolation and expecting it to bring back the good old days will not work. Manual shifts are unsuitable for modern, twitchy F1 cars. If you really want to watch manual F1 cars go watch the BOSS series - personally I prefer modern, cutting edge auto technology (or as modern as MM allows)

And no serious race series uses manuals anymore! Even at Micky Mouse local club rally level there are more and more sequential shifts appearing. Even street cars have them. Do you really want F1 cars to be more primitive than a Vauxhall Corsa!!! What next, carbs? Ban all electronics? Hell, lets all go watch NASCAR!!!

[Greg Boyce]

I have to say, after 4 days on this forum reads of this site are more partisan than our (US) Congress and Senate. Its good to see such objectivity from these devoted F1 fans(not!). Maybe, just maybe will get back to real competitiveness with more factory entries and we can see races with UNPREDICTABLE outcomes and some real racing. Its pretty sad that we all get excited by seeing 2 cars (Ralf and Frentzen)go thru 2 corners side by side. When I raced Skip Barber myself and another racer traded the lead 10 times on the first lap @ Road America! We were side by side thru 10 of the 14 corners. Its to bad F1's rule makers can't see the light and go to cars that let drivers race. Let the manufacturers put their tech into engines. I think if you put Clark, Fangio, Ascari, G. Villeneave in one of todays cars they would be bored (after they got over the increased performance).