38 replies to this topic

[RedFever]

It is always sad to see how low some fans can go to justify their team or drivers defeats. I have read several pathetic posts of people who questioned the use of a pace car in yesterday's race or that it was employed for too long. Some amateurs fans even stated that after 2 laps, the conditions were OK for anyone to drive safely.

However, maybe some people know a little better than these sour losers, so I went and checked what the experts (read REAL F1 DRIVERS!!!!!!) thought about the conditions. I am not including a quote from David Coulthard, because I hear the interview on Italian TV, so I can't quote it exactly, but David said that for over 5 laps after he changed tires, the Pace Car was faster than him where it was wet, since there was TOO MUCH water and the aquaplanning was excessive. Now more quotes that I can actually comfirm:


Fisichella:
When the rain set in, I was lucky to get in for an early pit-stop for wet tyres, then even behind the safety car it was almost impossible to drive as the track was so wet and the rain so intense.

Verstappen:
"Behind the safety car I didn't mean to do anything but there was so much spray and it was impossible to see and I went past Frentzen. I saw boards about safety car and let him by me and that was it, nothing else."

Barichello:
It was a pity I could not pit then, because I spun three or four times. Then, two laps later I was lucky not to hit Coulthard and Trulli. When the water gets under the car there is nothing you can do, but I found I had drive in fifth gear and managed to continue.

DC:
I spun off with Trulli just before I went into the pits and at that time we believed wet tyres would be the correct choice.

HHF:
Then the rain came and cars were spinning everywhere. I found myself in second place after a stop to change to wet tyres

Trulli:
On lap three, both Ferraris left the track and I was leading. Then I came across some standing water on the pit straight and the engine cut out. I lost control and spun but managed to get the engine restarted and get to the pits where I changed to wet-weather tyres.

JPM:
We decided to stay out one more lap but I couldn't make it to the pit because there was so much aquaplaning. I let the throttle go but again there was so little traction in the rear that the engine stopped and I spun.

Bernoldi:
I got a good start and was up to 11th but lost it in Turn Eight as it was just too slippery.

Irvine:
Then it started to rain as I came into the last corner and three of us spun off in a row.

Button:
These conditions were really difficult to drive in. The team did a great job to get us both in to the pits when the rain started. Then I made a mistake and went off, which left me at the back.

Alonso:
The hardest time, though, was when it started to rain and my car did not go well in the corners.

Heidfeld:
The race was okay to begin with, when it was only drizzling on the second or third lap, but then on the fourth we all encountered standing water and I just aquaplaned into the gravel. I tried to keep the momentum going and to keep the car rolling, but instead of going quicker I just got bogged down.

Villeneuve:
At the back of the track it started to rain really hard and turned into a downpour. We were on dry tyres and there were no wet lights so we couldn’t see where we were going and suddenly I started to slide into the gravel trap.


Now Fisichella said it was almost impossible to drive BEHIND the Pace Car and that was AFTER getting wet tires. So, he agrees with using the pace car.

And Jos didn't even see HHF in front of him, yet some moron suggests the pace car wasn't appropriate. Thankfully, F1 drivers understand a little bit better when a pace car is indeed needed, regardless of the teams leading or stuck in the pits...........ferrari was lucky in the instance, but as amply demonstrated by evert driver's comments, the pace car utilization was absolutely required.

[Max Torque]

I wonder why you don't mention my name once in your post.
It is clear that you are talking about me.

I see your crusade is holding strong...;)

[Alien]

Nice post, it is true that some people seem to beleive that they know more about the rain situation at Sepang than the real drivers....

This comments show how many drivers spun on Sunday and that it didn´t show on TV. I think that the rain was making driving those cars very difficult not to say impossible, imagine when the drivers lifted the throttle and the engine cut out due to the lack of traction!!!!! That happened to Montoya and Trulli, even Barichello who is very good on the rain spun three times!!!

[Peeko]

Max you're paranoid:p . You're not the only one that feels that way regarding the safety car.

[RedFever]

No, Max, actually there other posters that went far beyond what you stated in other threads, trust me!!!!!!!

another quote from Ron Dennis, to support my point:

"The decision to put both drivers on wet tyres was the only responsible option when faced with the severity of the downpour," Dennis said. "You can't play around with drivers' lives. David (Coulthard) told us he was aquaplaning at 60mph behind the safety car."


aquaplanning at 60mph, yet someone said she could drive herself after 2 laps...........

[Max Torque]

I see...
I feel better now.
Talking about "crusade" I meant something else actually. I wonder if RedFever knows what I mean, it is something I told him a week ago, don't know if he read it though...

Oh well...

[Fabiola]

It amazes me that someone can be so narrow minded, and unwilling to consider anything other than what is in front of your nose. Perhaps you still believe the world is flat.

[Peeko]

Nope, just your head

[RedFever]

let me see, Fabiola......trust what a paranoid poster says......or what 22 professional top drivers say.......mmmmhhhhh....the difficult decisions in life.......... base the decision on my 4 years of racing in karts and Formula Italia or on a TV expert like yourself?..........mmmmmmmmhhhhhhh..... the difficult decisions in life......

Too bad you find it so hard to digest a defeat. get ready, more are just behind the corner!!!!!!

[RedFever]

Fabiola - what was under my nose??? 22 cars spinning, even three at the same corner simulataneously. Now, I am wondering what was under your nose............

[tifosi]

Yes it is amazing how many fans watching the (at least according to everyone on this BB) crappy world feed know more about the condition of the track than the drivers. David Coulthard was on the radio reporting conditions and the SC was NOT going to come in until he was happy. Even at the time I did not realize the huge number of cars spinning. What people seem to continue to fails to grasp is that the cars themselves were aquaplaning due to the ride heights of an F1 car. The tyres made absolutely no difference at this point.

Coulhard has made it very clear that the track was not ready. Some idiots on this BB actually said the track was clear within two laps. What an imbecile.

When I saw it on TV I too wondered why the safety car was out so long. But I also accepted the fact that the drivers know far more than me, evidently a lot of people around this BB think that they are more knowledgable about track conditions than the drivers. Anybody that questions the length of time the SC was out after seeing the remarks by Coulthard is just being plain pathetic.

[RedFever]

and be it clear, I am not discussing whether the Pace Car was supposed to stay out 6 laps, 9 laps, or 12 laps.

What pisses me off is the pro-Ferrari conspiracy theory, people saying the Pace Car was out so long to help Ferrari.

Instead, because David Coulthard was the leader at that point, the race direction made their decisions based on David Coulthard's radio feedback. He, a McLaren driver, kept Denis informed that he was aquaplaning at 60mph, so Denis reported that to the FIA delegate and they kept the Pace Car out. Until david finally said it was OK to go back to race conditions. So, for all you paranoid pro-Ferrari conspiracy theorist....if you are mad that the Pace Car was employed for so long, please go to David Coulthard and complain with him. ferrari really has nothing to do with this at all!!!!!!

[Fabiola]

It amazes me of the amount of limited grey matter there seems to be around. Having tried to impress upon you the point that comments made were made prior to the conditions improving. If the conditions were so bad when the SC went off why were wets no longer the right tyres. You guys are either too patriotic or just ... The proof of the pudding will be public comment that come out later. Give it a few days.
And as for red , what a crock of.. actually you tend to get way too personal with people you know nothing about. It amazes me how anyone could spend 6000 hours on the net doing this.Sad.

[Max Torque]

So, what you are basically saying RedFever, is that Ron Dennis was the one who gave Ferrari their win.

And you dare call him a bad loser!

[tifosi]

hehe Max, that was actually pretty good, LMFAO.

Fabiola, regarding the issue of the tyres, Ferrari had done a test at Fiarano last week with intermediates and full wets. The tests demonstrated that the intermediates worked just as good as the full wets under heavy water conditions. That is why they used them. They were going to intermediates irregardless of the SC because their tests demonstrated that they could.


This follows onto another comment made by David Hobbs on the US telecast. According to Hobbs, one of McClarens problems is that they cannot test right now due to the fly-away races. Now this may be a problem for Minardi or Prost, but McClaren. Just what the hell is wrong with them. Ferrari went back to Europe and tested, why can't McClaren?

[RedFever]

listen, I had enough patience with you.

First, you offended me, called me a kid still drinking milk, then you can't take your own medicine.

You clearly proved 100% to be a total idiot. I say that without anger or resentment, just obvious to anyone reading this BB.

13 cars flew out, fisichalla, Coulthard and Verstappen said it was impossible to drive at lap 3-4.

At that point the Pace Car came out, because of that. This is the reality.

Than the leader was david Coulthard. The FIA delegate that communicates with the pace car was in contact with Ron Denis, team manager of the leader of the race. David Coulthard, a real F1 driver who was there in the middle of the race, said to his team manager that the pace car was faster than him. He said he was acquaplaning at 60mph. So Mr. Denis did the right thing and told the FIA delegate that it was IMPOSSIBLE to drive in race conditions yet.

So, the director kept the Pace Car out. This is a fact, as stated by DC, Dennis and Co. The pace car remained on the track until David Coulthard, a McLaren driver, confirmed it was OK to go back to racing. This is reality as comfirmed by Mr. Ron Denis himself.

So, before you accuse me of stupidity and nationalism, maybe you ought to look at youself in the mirror and see the face of hypocrisy staring at you. I guess it's very hard for a British fan like youself to digest a team and driver from a different country winning. get used to it, it just started!!!!!

[RedFever]

Max -

"So, what you are basically saying RedFever, is that Ron Dennis was the one who gave Ferrari their win.

And you dare call him a bad loser! "


Incidentally, yes, Ferrari has to thank Ron Dennis. But the reality is that Ron based his advise to the FIA delegate based on David's ffedback. As the race leader, they reacted to his feedback. If David told Ron he was aquaplanning at 60mph, why are we still having this conversation??? an idiot thinks she could have driven a car in those conditions when the driver currently 2nd in the WDC stated it was impossible? fine, I can't force her to get on Prozac, but I value the feedback from David more. McLaren knew Ferrari had intermediate tires, yet they asked for the pace car to stay out based on DC's feedback. Simple as that. It was fortunate for Ferrari, but in no way the finger can be pointed at the Maranello squad by anyone that can read plain English and reads Ron Dennis statements.

[gray_cat]

Here is what actually happened :

Within the next few seconds the track disappears in a monsoon style rain shower with cars spinning everywhere. J.Verstappen goes over the grass, J.Villeneuve retires in the gravel, J.Trulli and D.Coulthard (now 1st and 2nd) spin around and around over the gravel at the hairpin, a surprising number of cars survive their time off track. J.Villeneuve, N.Heidfeld, E.Bernoldi, E.Irvine and J.Montoya do not.
All the top 10 pit at the end of lap 4 just as the Safety Car comes on track.

So not only Ferrari took advantage of SC

15 cars are still in the race on lap 10 as the Safety Car pits, the track is now very wet in places but dry in others. The top 10 after the pit stops are: D.Coulthard, H.Frentzen, J.Verstappen, M.Hakkinen, J.Trulli, J.Alesi, G.Fisichella, R.Schumacher, G.Mazzacane, R.Barrichello. M.Schumacher is 11th

Since MS & RB are not the last cars in line, it is incorrect to say that SC was kept on track enough time for Ferrari to catch-up.

Normal service was resumed by lap 16 with M.Schumacher and R.Barrichello tearing up through the field like guided missiles often lapping 5s faster than everyone else on circuit. The top 10 are now M.Schumacher, R.Barrichello, D.Coulthard, J.Verstappen, M.Hakkinen, R.Schumacher, H.Frentzen, J.Trulli, G.Fisichella, L.Burti.

J.Verstappen, M.Hakkinen, R.Schumacher also improved their positions, besides, even if SC was on track 2-3 laps less, it would not affect the natural process of water evaporating off the very hot track surface. Ron and others simply made a mistake, and Mika is known to be very cautious in the wet, whereas MS and RB are equally known for taking risks and going on slicks or intermediates when everybody else are on wets

Ron Dennis: “You couldn’t possibly change to intermediate tyres with that amount of water. Even on rain tyres the drivers were saying ‘we’ve got massive aquaplaning’. We were informing Charlie [Whiting] that the drivers were complaining of aquaplaning. He had to take a view on how long the safety car should stay out. Obviously all the main water was dispersed when the safety car came in, and it played to an intermediate tyre choice. But at the point we had to decide, that was the right decision"

Curiously enough, early off-track helped MS and RB - they didn’t have to drive in standing water much - they were already in the pits by then. Other guys came into the pits with all sorts of horror stories, which made their teams to panic and go for full wets without much thought.

[daveturbo]

I'm sorry, gray_cat, but you have a couple of factual errors; you say "All the top 10 pit at the end of lap 4 just as the Safety Car comes on track" but at 5:30 after the start the cars pass the start/finish to start another lap and at 6:10 Murray Walker states that the Safety car is out. This means that it was public knowledge that the safety car was out 40 seconds into the lap BEFORE the pitstops.

This means that ALL THE TEAMS KNEW that the pace car was out LONG before they pitted.

At 7:20 Trulli went off (with David I think) and this MUST have been BEFORE their pitstops (Am I wrong?). Therefore ALL the teams had WELL OVER A MINUTE between the pace car being out and their driver coming in !

You also say "off-track helped MS and RB - they didn’t have to drive in standing water much - they were already in the pits by then" but this is simply wrong. Rubens recovered from his off to 3rd place and Michael to 7th. They did ANOTHER lap and pitted at EXACTLY THE SAME TIME as everyone else, bar the Bennetons and a Minardi !

See my thread "The truth about Malasyia".

Other than that, a good post.

[MattFoster]

Great post Red, really shows what a pack of twits some of these arm chair experts are.

[Thank-U]

Originally posted by RedFever
and be it clear, I am not discussing whether the Pace Car was supposed to stay out 6 laps, 9 laps, or 12 laps.

What pisses me off is the pro-Ferrari conspiracy theory, people saying the Pace Car was out so long to help Ferrari.

Instead, because David Coulthard was the leader at that point, the race direction made their decisions based on David Coulthard's radio feedback. He, a McLaren driver, kept Denis informed that he was aquaplaning at 60mph, so Denis reported that to the FIA delegate and they kept the Pace Car out. Until david finally said it was OK to go back to race conditions. So, for all you paranoid pro-Ferrari conspiracy theorist....if you are mad that the Pace Car was employed for so long, please go to David Coulthard and complain with him. ferrari really has nothing to do with this at all!!!!!!

So DC is REALLY a Cubehead!!!
He should have kept the pace car for 50 laps!
that would have given McLaren a 1-3 finish with Ferrari out of the points!

[100cc]

I'm going to post my pictures on the net within a week or so and you'll see how many cars we saw going off. Its pretty funny actually, I have 3 pictures of fisi going wide and then my next two pictures are coulthard and trulli going wide at the last corner with the big-screen showing fisi re-joining the track, the cars were flying everywhere, I watched the race on tv, and they didn't show half the spins/outs that I saw from where I was sitting.

Barrichello went onto the grass on the inside, on a straight, it was as if he suddenly wanted to test the grass to see if he could find more traction.

Many of the spins were after the safety car was already on the track=)

[SchuMic]

Originally posted by RedFever
Fabiola - what was under my nose??? 22 cars spinning, even three at the same corner simulataneously. Now, I am wondering what was under your nose............

COCAINE!!!

To see the race that these people have seen, they had to be on really HARD drugs!!!

Remember, WINNERS DON'T USE DRUGS!

[bleakuzs]

RedFever:
Save your fight for another day, these twits are not worth the effort, as they obviously have no experince with a racing type situation. They don't realize that race stewards take all drivers input in the type of situation that was encountered in Sepang, they want to make sure that the track is safe for everyone, and if it benifits someone, then so be it, but then, there great conspiracy theorys wouldn't hold up.

[Wishbone]

Redfever,

I didn't know that you'd driven in karts. You've never mentioned it in any of your other posts (e.g MS is king, Why Ferrari is better than all the others, Why should MS waste his time with big fat losers? and , my personal favorite for it's ironic value, Why Frans MSH is a krank ).

I've been following F1 since 1986 Australia (not a bad race to start with I think you'll agree ) but have been gradually losing interest since MS joined the grid. Not, before you say because I'm envious of his success, but because of fans of his like you. Nothing he does can be bad/wrong/a simple mistake. In your eyes he is GOD and all those who waver must be weak in the mind. I admit I don't particularly like the man, but then I don't hate him either.

I used to browse through the Readers Comments threads for interesting views and gossip, but now find myself checking the original poster to see if it's going to be soley Ferrari thread (e.g. Ferrari have pasta for lunch!!) in which Ferrari fans pat themselves on the back for supporting the richest and most famous team in F1. Genuine Ferrari fans don't take this the wrong way, Man Utd have decent fans but also have fans who support the club because it's the most successful and so it looks good on them (just see the growth in the club over the past few years).

I am a motor racing fan and enjoy seeing a good race. But frankly F1 today has nowhere near the same appeal as when I started watching it. The races are only exciting when there are freak conditions and the driver input seems to diminish everyday. I'm not watching F1 anymore for the sport but for the technical innovations.

Before you come back with a tirade about how I'm just a crackpot/MSH/stupid bias Brit/... you'll be glad to know that this isn't just aimed at you but all the narrow minded fans who seem incapable of admitting that their driver/team has any weaknesses.

There...out of my system.

You'll also be pleased to know that your posts have not been in vain, they've put me off F1 until the day that they bring back racing and get rid of the multi-billion-$ 'show' (which may incidently be never) which, in retrospect has seemed like an enormous joke over the past few years (sorry mika, but it's true).

bye bye 'til then, and don't forget to have the last word (pop in your racing career, it always goes down well in terms of moral superiority)

Wishbone....signing off.

p.s. The sig. seems strangly appropriate....

p.p.s. There is such a thing as a bad winner as well as a bad loser.

[RedFever]

Wishbone -

Are you OK????

First, you must confusing me with someone else? RedBaron maybe??? in fact, if you had any clue whatsoever about me, you wouldn't post anything as silly as "(e.g MS is king, Why Ferrari is better than all the others, Why should MS waste his time with big fat losers? and , my personal favorite for it's ironic value, Why Frans MSH is a krank )."

Normally, you can gather usefull info about a poster from their profile. You would have noticed Schumacher is not even one of my three favorite drivers..............

The rest of your missinformed post (or directed to the wrong person) is completly off the mark as well. Thank you for the Manchester Utd. fans analogy.......maybe you missed that Ferrari fans didn't have much to cheer for 21 years. Missed that??? since I have followed Ferrari since 1974, when F1 was not this popular and there weren't millions of pseudo-Ferrari fans with flags at each circuit (that would happen only in Italy back then), and I have endured a total draugh from 1979 to 2000, but never, never lessened my support for the team, I feel your remarks are completly wrong. You are barking at the worng tree.

If you din;t like my thread, you should maybe question rather than Ferrari fans 'patting their back" after 21 years of pain, those idiots that find a conspiracy theory even in pace cars, passing in gravel traps (yes, people asked for a 10" penalty for Rubens for passing Schumi in the gravel!!!). These idiots that will do anything to trow mud on Ferrari's success after a 21 year wait, these are the ones damaging F1, certainly not me defending a legitimate square and fair victory in Sepang.

Now, what about Schumacher?????

PS. as you are playing the role of moral superior because F1 today is not what it was and I am responsible for your losing interest (calling me a fanatical Schumi fan, when I never was one in the first place) and that F1 today is a joke unlike when you started watching in 1986.....let me break the news to you, F1 in 1986 was already a joke, it was exactly the same it was today. Only three years later, the darkest days of F1 strated with Prost and Senna introducing the ramming driving tecnique. F1 the real thing, the stuff of the heros, the stuff of the fair gentlemen was over in Zolder on May 8, 1982. I am sorry you never witnessed it, because you would have spared me such an ignorant accusation.

[Todd]

Astounding. I try to be all the things that RedFever stands accused of being, but I get no recognition. Last time I checked, RedFever's only loyalty to MS was based on the color of his driving suit.

Did Michael's fans ruin the sport for you? What a joke. Senna's fans were far more given to tunnel vision. Hill's fans thought they were on a moral crusade, and the majority of JV's fans in '97 were a bunch of drunks that had discovered the sport in '96. They didn't turn you off? I don't think it is the fans. It is some sort of issue with Michael himself.

[gray_cat]

Originally posted by Wishbone
In your eyes he is GOD and all those who waver must be weak in the mind. I admit I don't particularly like the man, but then I don't hate him either.

you'll be glad to know that this isn't just aimed at you but all the narrow minded fans who seem incapable of admitting that their driver/team has any weaknesses.

I've lost count of times people on this BB say that others think MS is GOD and MS fans incapable of admitting that their driver/team has any weaknesses. Grano/YR, Bruce and whole army of hard core Brits and Latin-Americans - everybody keep repeating that MS is GOD

Would you Wishbone be the first one who can actually quote somebody among MS fans saying so ? Did RedFever ever say so ?

You have to be able either give a quotation or admit that you are making things up, fabricating things, if you wish. Where are your quotes, Wishbone ?

[RedFever]

"p.s. The sig. seems strangly appropriate.... "

Yes, isn't it??? it has been for years "Gilles Forever" and it will soon go back to its glorious original. Unfortunately, for the past 3-4 weeks, I had to listen to the myriad of whiners accusing Ferrari of cheating and using illegal systems, the same systems that used by McLaren are a simple footnote in F1 history. As long as there will be one-sided detractors as yourself and one-sided accusers like the ones you know, I felt it was necessary to remind you all that Ferrari is not doing anything different than any top team. It's just that you lot love to hate Ferrari.

[RedFever]

Todd -

"Astounding. I try to be all the things that RedFever stands accused of being, but I get no recognition. Last time I checked, RedFever's only loyalty to MS was based on the color of his driving suit."




Grey-Cat -

a quote to support Wishbone's statements against me would be a good idea. Then again, he wouldn't be able to find any. Too bad he will not show up again on this thread, typical of posters like him, he first slaps me in the face and then hides away. Why am I not surprised.....

[RedFever]

of course, he still hasn't showed up..........

[Wishbone]

[Edited by Wishbone]

oops, posted before I'd finished by accident.

[Wishbone]

Firstly, I'd like to explain that I didn't really have any intention of posting on this board again as I tried to explain on my other post for the given reasons. But I admit that I was curious how it would be replied to, and after reading the responses I feel I should respond.

1) Sorry to Redfever for confusing you with someone else, but rabid ferrari fans all seem alike to me.

2) Man Utd waited 26 years (5 more than Ferrari) before they won the 1st/Prem. division again in 1993. Now that they are (arguably) the best team in the world they seem to have a few more fans than in their dry seasons, bit like Ferrari IMHO.

3) It was my sig that I was reffering to, not yours.

4) Redfever -

PS. as you are playing the role of moral superior because F1 today is not what it was and I am responsible for your losing interest (calling me a fanatical Schumi fan, when I never was one in the first place) and that F1 today is a joke unlike when you started watching in 1986.....let me break the news to you, F1 in 1986 was already a joke, it was exactly the same it was today. Only three years later, the darkest days of F1 strated with Prost and Senna introducing the ramming driving tecnique. F1 the real thing, the stuff of the heros, the stuff of the fair gentlemen was over in Zolder on May 8, 1982. I am sorry you never witnessed it, because you would have spared me such an ignorant accusation.

As I didn't see any live F1 before 1986 I can't comment on the standard before then except to say that the clips I have seen indicate that, yes, it was much better. All I was saying was that since I started watching I thought that it had gone downhill. Would you disagree?

5) No, I wasn't particularly fond of Senna either, I view him in the same way I view MS, i.e. a very good (maybe the best) current driver but nothing special as a person. I didn't like sennas fans any more than I like MS fans because they were always trying to elavate him to a class above anyone else and therefore never willing to admit any faults in him. They had no objective view either.

6) Todd -

Did Michael's fans ruin the sport for you? What a joke. Senna's fans were far more given to tunnel vision. Hill's fans thought they were on a moral crusade, and the majority of JV's fans in '97 were a bunch of drunks that had discovered the sport in '96. They didn't turn you off? I don't think it is the fans. It is some sort of issue with Michael himself.

Redfever -

I felt it was necessary to remind you all that Ferrari is not doing anything different than any top team. It's just that you lot love to hate Ferrari.

I repect MS as a driver, I think he's one of the current best. I just don't think he comes across very well in person. I repeat I don't have a problem with MS, it's his fans who get me annoyed. If he went out with a big flashing neon sign saying "I'm using an illegal form of traction control" while on slicks and knocked everyone off the track you would be the first to dismiss it all as a vicious rumour. I think you've got your helmet on back to front.
And I don't hate Ferrari any more than I hate ice-cream. (which I quite like by the way, even though it's not in my profile)

7) Redfever -
I'm not going to waste my life going through the BB looking for quotes which, admittedly , I know aren't there. It isn't what you say but the topics you cover, and please tell me if I've got any of these wrong, I'm going from memory

RD (because he apparently cheated with water ballast, although as I recall JT also cheated in rallying)
DH (as a joke, cough , because posters bash MS)
MS (because he's being driving crap cars until this years ferrari)
Ferrari (How they don't cheat)
Bennetton (How they don't cheat)
Anti-MS posters (how mad they are and how balanced you are)
Ferrari (How good the team is but how it's not the best car)

The thread I'm picking up here is - you're a rabid ferrari fan. That's my problem with you, a Ferrari fan I can respect and deal with. You take it too far.

8) As I said before, because of the declining proportion of driver skill into driving the cars and some of the F1 fans I won't be posting on this BB any more, unless of course you make some valid points.

9) And I didn't run away after slapping you, I told you I was leaving and then went.


Wishbone...

[Smooth]

Originally posted by Wishbone
9) And I didn't run away after slapping you, I told you I was leaving and then went.


Wishbone...

Who wrote this, then?

[gray_cat]

Originally posted by Wishbone
If he went out with a big flashing neon sign saying "I'm using an illegal form of traction control" while on slicks and knocked everyone off the track you would be the first to dismiss it all as a vicious rumour.

Do YOU state that MS used "an illegal form of traction control", Wishbone ?

[RedFever]

Wishbone, considering your reply was entirely based on your fantasy world rather than reality, I will not miss you as you leave.

If I was a rabid Ferrari fan (you clearly showed you are a rabid poster, regardless of your team preferences), I wouldn't be able to have civil and interesting conversations with people like A3, Bruce, etc, who are FAR from being Ferrari supporters, as everyone here knows. However, they criticize Ferrari with facts, arguments, opinions they like to discuss, not immature biased finger pointing with no substance or evidence. You immaturity makes it impossible to have a conversation with you.

"but rabid ferrari fans all seem alike to me." Apart from offending me tewice in one post, this shows clearly your personal limitations, one says "I'm a Ferrari fan" and you already draw your conclusions. Perfect example of open mind......

"you would be the first to dismiss it all as a vicious rumour. I think you've got your helmet on back to front. " ANd finally you need to resort to lies in order to look good. I have always stated that I am pretty convinced Ferrari has cheated at one point or another (sorry for your reading skills), however I believe so do all the other major teams. In this year's case, I am unconvinced and here is why:

1) HHF said system was legal although unfair advantage to Ferrari and McLaren (funny how you ALWAYS omit McLaren uses same system - typical balanced view......)

2) FIA comfirmed it (for what is worth, I agree)

3) Ron Dennis comfirmed it's legal (now, nobody loves more than Ron to get Ferrari in trouble, this is STRONG support of innocence)


What do I have on the other side as evidence that Ferrari is cheating?

1) Whishbone's opinion

2) Hartley Hare's opinion

3) FRANS' opinion

4) Danger Mouse's opinon

5) Samurai's opinion


After a careful examination of the support provided against and in favor of Ferrari, it is my conclusion (personal, mind you) that while it is not possible to say with certainty that Ferrari is racing legal cars, there is not a single minor element of evidence that the team is cheating. Hence, until someone will have any evidence to prove the case, Ferrari is using legal systems. That is what in a democratic country is done. Of course, you are free to sentence anyone without any evidence if fascism is the style you rather adopt.

[A3]

RedFever, good post, I can totally understand your feelings, but it's a bit too agressive IMHO.


Wishbone , didn't expect that from you. Crap posts.


Talking about sigs: I think mine is the best, although Verstappen is not a car.

[RedFever]

Wishbone -

All started from your comment:

"Before you come back with a tirade about how I'm just a crackpot/MSH/stupid bias Brit/... you'll be glad to know that this isn't just aimed at you but all the narrow minded fans who seem incapable of admitting that their driver/team has any weaknesses."

Clearly you have no idea of what you are talking about and are inconsistent with your accusations.

1) First, you accused me of being a Schumi fan. Everyone here knows I am not, so you attack me without even knowing who I am and you even admitted of confusing me with someone else.....

2) I have discussed an accepted "any weakness" of my team any time they have shown some. And they have many times over the years. Just because I defended the team from accusations WITHOUT evidence of using an illegal suystem, automatically you label me "narrow minded". I would say it appears that it's clearly the other way around, you accuse me and offend me only because I am a Ferrari fan, without knowing anything about me (you listed the hundreds of posts I made on Schumi is God, etc, when I never made one in my life).

Your ridiculous and childish behavior is clear to anyone who wants to see it. You just gave us a perfect example of the very same behavior you accuse others of doing.

[A3]

Originally posted by RedFever
I wouldn't be able to have civil and interesting conversations with people like A3, Bruce, etc,

RedFever, I love you too. ;)