57 replies to this topic

[Dolph]

It's off season so forgive me...


Kubica vs. Räikkönen vs. Rossi in rally cars. Who is better?

[Trust]

This isn't comparable. Don't know what you want with this thread.

[Jovanotti]

Hard to tell and I only know little about Rossi's attempts, but I'd say Kubica and Räikkönen similar and a bit better than Rossi, mostly down to the fact that they are race car drivers and have more experience there.

Edited by Jovanotti, 04 December 2012 - 19:04.

[Szoelloe]

If I would be forced to put money on either, I would bet on Kubica. Should be pretty close between KR and RK.

[thuGG]

I'd say Kubica, but I'm biased:)

[sheSgoTthElooK]

Based on my intuition, I'd say Kubica > Räikkönen but not sure about Rossi (honestly I didn't know that he had already a rally adventure)
And plus I´m not a Rally 'enthusiast' as I had to learn that a rally weekend is really time consuming - if you want to 'watch' or rather follow all stages your weekend is full.

[darkkis]

Räikkönen! He has the most experience from rallying.

[DrProzac]

I'd say Kubica, but I'm biased:)

+1

[Muppetmad]

Depends which surface. Kubica has little experience on gravel or snow, so on those surfaces I'd say Raikkonen. On tarmac though, I'd say Kubica.

[Dolph]

OK, but Kubica has wone a couple of rallys and almost won rally du Var which Latvala said was a tough rally. Has Räikkönen or Rossi won any?

[Trust]

When Kubica starts competing in WRC and when we see those results, then we can speculate who is better. I see no argument here that would prevail in either Kubica or Kimi's way.

[Jovanotti]

OK, but Kubica has wone a couple of rallys and almost won rally du Var which Latvala said was a tough rally. Has Räikkönen or Rossi won any?

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/86817 plus one or two WRC stage wins if I remember correctly.

http://www.crash.net...rally_show.html

I think the rallye wins of RK and KR are fairly comparable - "minor" national rallyes mainly against cars from different categories. Nogier also said that Kubica has more experience in rallying atm than Räikkönen had when he entered WRC in 2010.

Edited by Jovanotti, 04 December 2012 - 19:40.

[2ms]

No contest. Look at the drivers Raikkonen drove against and won stages against in WRC. Look at the rally categories he won before he even started WRC. And look how much experience he had when he won them -- practically zero. Don't think there's been any driver in history who's come close to being able to do what Raikkonen did in such short period of time rallying.

[Pothead4Philosopher]

No contest. Look at the drivers Raikkonen drove against and won stages against in WRC. Look at the rally categories he won before he even started WRC. And look how much experience he had when he won them -- practically zero. Don't think there's been any driver in history who's come close to being able to do what Raikkonen did in such short period of time rallying.

Point made. Amen.

[Taxi]

Raikkonen drove against the best rally drivers in the world. He was clearly faster than Ken Block, or Armindo Araújo for instance. He was more or less on pair with Wilson/Henning Solberg/ and just a bit slower than Ostberg/Peter/Sordo. Make no mistake what Kimi did in WRC was awesome. He scored 1 stage win and some very decent results from 5 th to 10th.

Until Kubica do something similar i say Kimi hands down.

[Jovanotti]

Yup, I also feel people should give Kimi a bit more credit for his rallye efforts - maybe it's just ignorance, but I often read or hear about his "rather lacklustre", "uninspired", "not very successful adventures" in WRC...

Edited by Jovanotti, 04 December 2012 - 21:09.

[InfectedPumpkin]

Raikkonen average on tarmac and average on gravel, while Kubica very good on tarmac and weak on gravel.

[Taxi]

Yup, I also feel people should Kimi a bit more credit for his rallye efforts - maybe it's just ignorance, but I often read or hear about his "rather lacklustre", "uninspired", "not very successful adventures" in WRC...

That makes me furious. Seriously. What were those experts expecting? Rally wins and fighting for the championship? Only someone who does not understand nothing about rally can think that way. I believe that had he stayed for 2012 he could have scored some podium co's he was improving all the time.


I say something else: Kimi's 2 years at WRC were an immense success because he brought attention to the sport, and he as a driver was very fast since the beginning and cope quite well with the comparison of the top drivers. He proved he could drive at the top level in both championships.

And I have a theory: This 2 years at WRC made him a better racer at F1. His reflexes in unexpected circumstances were stellar this year.

[Fubaaarrr]

Actually, I did read that Kimi was faster than Loeb when Kimi knew the route and did not have to rely completely to notes.

[BRG]

Actually, I did read that Kimi was faster than Loeb when Kimi knew the route and did not have to rely completely to notes.

Ah, but who was quicker when they both knew the route intimately?

As for the OP, there seems little to chose between the three as rally drivers. They all crashed too often.

[Fubaaarrr]

Ah, but who was quicker when they both knew the route intimately?

Yes, on testing route or something similar which they both did run many times.

Edited by Fubaaarrr, 04 December 2012 - 21:24.

[Panch]

This is Kimi onboard in Rally Finland 2009. I think this was Kimis second rally.

[Lone]

Ah, but who was quicker when they both knew the route intimately?

As for the OP, there seems little to chose between the three as rally drivers. They all crashed too often.

Little to choose between the three, really?

I guess you could say that as well when by comparing a F3 driver, a GP2 driver and a F1 driver and coming to the conclusion that there seems little to choose between them even though they drove in little league, minor league and the majors.

[BRG]

Little to choose between the three, really?

I guess you could say that as well when by comparing a F3 driver, a GP2 driver and a F1 driver and coming to the conclusion that there seems little to choose between them even though they drove in little league, minor league and the majors.

Both Rossi and Kimi have competed in WRC. Kubica hasn't yet but may be about to. So all at about the same level.

[Lone]

Both Rossi and Kimi have competed in WRC. Kubica hasn't yet but may be about to. So all at about the same level.

So not at the same level, and Rossi at the same level as Räikkonnen, really? You're just f''king with me, right? Remind me, if I'm not wrong Rossi attended a Rally in Mexico or something. Wasn't he hopeless in that Rally?

No, I'll give this a rest, anyone who thinks Rossi is at the same level as Räikkonnen deserves a thank you, for giving me a good laugh, honestly thank you.

[Myrvold]

Rossi have a 11th from New Zealand in 06 with a 04 Subaru (not a top car) and a 12th in GB in 08, with a 07 Focus, which was a better car.
However, these are both gravel rallies, and, at least back in 06, there was more good drivers&cars in WRC than what's been the trend the last few years.

That's actually not bad results.

[MadYarpen]

Wow, I have to say the off season was to long already! Should Robert compete in WRC in 2013, there will be ground for comparison. Sure he has shown some speed, but seriously...

I got the feeling that RK would be good on tarmac at least, though:)

Edited by MadYarpen, 04 December 2012 - 23:34.

[choyothe]

Kimi > Kubica > Rossi, pretty clearly I'd guess.

[rubbersoul]

Yes Kimi is definitely the best of the three (Kimi, Kubica and Rossi) If these three (Kimi, Kubica and Rossi) device to drive in a full WRC season, Kimi would win hands down. Rally is the big boys hustle narrow roads between the trees. Formula 1 is child's play in compariso

Edited by rubbersoul, 05 December 2012 - 00:04.

[Pothead4Philosopher]

Raikkonen average on tarmac and average on gravel, while Kubica very good on tarmac and weak on gravel.

That's just a silly thing to state. Kubica has driven small, hence relatively insignificant rallies. Kimi competed with the top dogs.

Seriously, Robert is sure OK, but c'mon.

[Ramses1348]

Based on current results achieved it is clearly KR > VR > RK. Once we see RK competing with the big boys the picture might change...

[InfectedPumpkin]

That's just a silly thing to state. Kubica has driven small, hence relatively insignificant rallies. Kimi competed with the top dogs.

Seriously, Robert is sure OK, but c'mon.

This thread is to speculate so I speculate ;)

[Pothead4Philosopher]

This thread is to speculate so I speculate ;)

That's too cute to contradict.

;-))

[santori]

No contest. Look at the drivers Raikkonen drove against and won stages against in WRC. Look at the rally categories he won before he even started WRC. And look how much experience he had when he won them -- practically zero. Don't think there's been any driver in history who's come close to being able to do what Raikkonen did in such short period of time rallying.

Kimi did well, but Carlos Reutemann was better: 2 WRC starts; 2 podium finishes. Jim Clark and Stirling Moss were good, too.

Edited by santori, 05 December 2012 - 07:39.

[piszkosfred]

A little bit hard to compare them. Kimi and Kubica raced cars their whole life so adapting was easier for them. Also they made more testing before. Rossi participated in 3 WRC gravel rallies (2002 RAC,2006 NZ and 2008 RAC), in 3 different car. I don't think the Monza rally qualifies as a real event. He crashed in 2002 on the first stage (typical RAC weather). No testing before the events. In the other 2 rallies, he posted comparable times to M.Wilson on the 3rd day.

[noikeee]

My money would be on Kubica even after the injury. I remember Kimi's first few attempts before moving fulltime to the WRC, and how he compared to the other drivers at that level, ex. other S2000 cars and local/lower-level international drivers. Kimi was fairly impressive then but Kubica is being even more so in my opinion. He's quick out of the box objectively, whereas Kimi looked good but only if you factored in the lack of experience (a very big factor of course - the difference is Kubica does lack the same experience but you don't need to bring that caveat to embelish his stage times).

Ultimately Kimi's time in WRC was disappointing for me. Don't get me wrong I do realize the gigantic nature of the task that is to move from F1 to there. Driving to pacenotes on full trust of your co-driver instead of getting into a solitary trance-like rhythmn lap after lap, the different surfaces, the completely different kind of car. It's a completely different sport, plus the opposition were world class and all had years and years of advantage in preparation. It is still a nice achievement to have been able to go there, match and even slightly outperform WRC journeymen like Matthew Wilson. Or as previously mentioned, double PWRC champion Armindo Araújo. What frustrated me about Kimi was that I saw very little improvement in pace after 2 full years, and the frequency of crashes remained the same as well. I do realize rally drivers take years and years to mature properly, I still would have expected a tangible, steady improvement. It wasn't there. I also never saw the hype "ohhh he's going to be so much better on tarmac" materialize into anything.

Whereas I look at Kubica's times and think he's already slightly better than Kimi was at the beginning, and wouldn't expect him to have the same lack of progress if he moves to the WRC as has been speculated.

Rossi I haven't really followed.

[JeePee]

Kimi didn't really drive a lot of tarmac. His last year in France he collided with Henning on the route to stage 3. First year there was in the rain. First year in Spain he cracked his rollcage on the shakedown and couldn't participate. Last time there he had an engine failure on day 1 before going to tarmac. I remember Bulgaria where he was really impressive on tarmac (4th overall close behind the leaders) but crashed out. And in Germany he went OK with ofcourse the powerstage win. Last time there he had a flat tyre in the first few corners, but was still faster than Block and just a few seconds of Loeb haha!

[spinster]

OK, but Kubica has wone a couple of rallys and almost won rally du Var which Latvala said was a tough rally. Has Räikkönen or Rossi won any?

in his first year of rally Kimi he one rally du var by miles...

I don't think we can compare those 3... but I'm sure Kimi will be faster due to experience no matter which surface

[JRodrigues]

My money would be on Kubica even after the injury. I remember Kimi's first few attempts before moving fulltime to the WRC, and how he compared to the other drivers at that level, ex. other S2000 cars and local/lower-level international drivers. Kimi was fairly impressive then but Kubica is being even more so in my opinion. He's quick out of the box objectively, whereas Kimi looked good but only if you factored in the lack of experience (a very big factor of course - the difference is Kubica does lack the same experience but you don't need to bring that caveat to embelish his stage times).

Ultimately Kimi's time in WRC was disappointing for me. Don't get me wrong I do realize the gigantic nature of the task that is to move from F1 to there. Driving to pacenotes on full trust of your co-driver instead of getting into a solitary trance-like rhythmn lap after lap, the different surfaces, the completely different kind of car. It's a completely different sport, plus the opposition were world class and all had years and years of advantage in preparation. It is still a nice achievement to have been able to go there, match and even slightly outperform WRC journeymen like Matthew Wilson. Or as previously mentioned, double PWRC champion Armindo Araújo. What frustrated me about Kimi was that I saw very little improvement in pace after 2 full years, and the frequency of crashes remained the same as well. I do realize rally drivers take years and years to mature properly, I still would have expected a tangible, steady improvement. It wasn't there. I also never saw the hype "ohhh he's going to be so much better on tarmac" materialize into anything.

Whereas I look at Kubica's times and think he's already slightly better than Kimi was at the beginning, and wouldn't expect him to have the same lack of progress if he moves to the WRC as has been speculated.

Rossi I haven't really followed.

Tend to agree with almost everything you say. But have to add somethings: Kubica owned a Skoda WRC before (if I'm correct it was a Skoda) and 'played' with it often, so there might be a slight advantage in the beginning. Raikkonen's pace improved just a little, but he didn't crash as much in the 2nd year. Also, in his 2nd year, there were more cars competing, so he had more competition in the middle-field.

I might be wrong, but I don't think Kubica every finished a rally (at least since his accident), and so never one any.

[MadYarpen]

I might be wrong, but I don't think Kubica every finished a rally (at least since his accident), and so never one any.

I'm sorry, but I heve no idea what does this sentence mean.

[Pothead4Philosopher]

I'm sorry, but I heve no idea what does this sentence mean.

I believe he is saying that Kubica never finished a rally and hence never could have won one.

[MadYarpen]

I believe he is saying that Kubica never finished a rally and hence never could have won one.

Well so he is wrong, and I don't mean grammar.
He already won two rallies since his comeback, and would have won du var also, but it ended in flames sadly thanks to sticky pages.

[Reinmuster]

Kimi had compete in WRC, Kubica and Rossi did not.

But here's a thought. If they compete in F1, MotoGP and Rally and accumulated their times, I'm sure Rossi gonna win it.

[VoltagE]

Kimi had compete in WRC, Kubica and Rossi did not.

But here's a thought. If they compete in F1, MotoGP and Rally and accumulated their times, I'm sure Rossi gonna win it.

I would think that Kimi would win that regardles if you normalize the results or not as Kimi would be better on F1 and Rally and only lose on MotoGP.

If you would not normalize Rally would dominate too much at least if you compare lap times to stage times as stages are so much longer in comaprison.

[Myrvold]

Interesting to see how many that actually followed Kimi while rallying, and also knows a lot about Kubica & Rossi rallying! We miss you in the yearly rally threads...!

[RaikkonenZn]

Kimi drove against some of the best rally drivers in the world and continuously held his own as a rookie! There were times when he performed amazingly on certain stages! He was always on par with Wilson and most of the time faster! The guys who actually followed his WRC adventure would know that at times he did superbly to be able to match guys like P Solberg etc. He was rookie of the year for a reason - not because of the popularity but because for somebody to come in to rally and acclimatise to the pace so quickly and be able to turn out the times that he did was exceptional! His inexperience showed in his crashes but given a few years most of the WRC stars reckoned Kimi would be up there fighting for podiums and wins!

However who has the better potential between these 3 is hard to compare as their is not enough data but certainly if you put all 3 in a rally car right now - I know Kimi would leave them in the dust! Just to add though -In my opinion - I reckon no matter the experience of all 3 - Kimi would still own them! He was amazing at Rally - and I hope he goes back after he finishes in F1

[SpaMaster]

OK, but Kubica has wone a couple of rallys and almost won rally du Var which Latvala said was a tough rally. Has Räikkönen or Rossi won any?

This is always going to be a vain thread. Raikkonen participated in a much higher series and fought with much tougher opponents. He had some very impressive fourth, fifth and sixth positions there along with a couple of stage wins. That is much higher than winning a lower class rally(which Raikkonen has also done). Kubica has taken a more conventional route and may go on to be a better rally driver than Raikkonen. But so far, what Raikkonen has done is much more impressive. You really cannot compare what these three have done in rally.

Edited by SpaMaster, 05 December 2012 - 13:48.

[noikeee]

Kimi drove against some of the best rally drivers in the world and continuously held his own as a rookie! There were times when he performed amazingly on certain stages! He was always on par with Wilson and most of the time faster! The guys who actually followed his WRC adventure would know that at times he did superbly to be able to match guys like P Solberg etc. He was rookie of the year for a reason - not because of the popularity but because for somebody to come in to rally and acclimatise to the pace so quickly and be able to turn out the times that he did was exceptional! His inexperience showed in his crashes but given a few years most of the WRC stars reckoned Kimi would be up there fighting for podiums and wins!

However who has the better potential between these 3 is hard to compare as their is not enough data but certainly if you put all 3 in a rally car right now - I know Kimi would leave them in the dust! Just to add though -In my opinion - I reckon no matter the experience of all 3 - Kimi would still own them! He was amazing at Rally - and I hope he goes back after he finishes in F1

P Solberg? Henning maybe, at a push. Even Petter's not all that anymore.

He did acclimatize to the pace quickly but then I never saw him build on that. "Amazing at rally" is a quite funny way to put it. That's like saying Bruno Senna is amazing at F1, after all he lacks experience to everyone big time because he never did karts, and is a decent journeyman midfielder. Amazing.

I like Kimi as my favorite F1 driver no doubt, but there's no need to embellish his achievements beyond reality. He did fine to move to a completely different branch of the sport and be competitive there, but nothing beyond that: "competitive".

Edited by noikeee, 05 December 2012 - 13:48.

[EightGear]

Interesting to see how many that actually followed Kimi while rallying, and also knows a lot about Kubica & Rossi rallying! We miss you in the yearly rally threads...!

But it is just a shame most of them only follow(ed) rallying because of Kimi or Rossi. (While, actually, rallying is so much better than F1! )

[Taxi]

P Solberg? Henning maybe, at a push. Even Petter's not all that anymore.

He did acclimatize to the pace quickly but then I never saw him build on that. "Amazing at rally" is a quite funny way to put it. That's like saying Bruno Senna is amazing at F1, after all he lacks experience to everyone big time because he never did karts, and is a decent journeyman midfielder. Amazing.

I like Kimi as my favorite F1 driver no doubt, but there's no need to embellish his achievements beyond reality. He did fine to move to a completely different branch of the sport and be competitive there, but nothing beyond that: "competitive".

Agree. But when I say amazing in rally I state that because of the lack of experience he had. He was amazing co's one would just consider him or another F1 circuit driver for 10 years to be less competitive, something like Al Qassimi. To use Bruno Senna it's like if now Williams gave a seat to Peter Solberg and he could match him over a season. It would be awesome in a relative way. Kimi scored 55 points in two incomplete seasons, and got himself in the speed mix. He just needed a bit more experience to stay on the road.

Edited by Taxi, 05 December 2012 - 14:57.