47 replies to this topic

[D.M.N.]

Maurice Hamilton
A lot of unhappy prospective 2013 F2 drivers as Jonathan Palmer and MSV suddenly pull the plug on the series. No word from FIA yet.
2:32 PM - 6 Dec 12

https://twitter.com/...695636471062528

[Risil]

If the only people who're unhappy about the news are prospective F2 drivers, that tells its own tale.

[Fastcake]

A shame, since the idea behind F2 was a good one. As it happened though very few drivers seemed to gain anything concrete from it - apart from the bill to cover, and no one in the motor racing world took it seriously.

[Anja]

I'm hardly surprised, it didn't quite work out as imagined.

[Ross Stonefeld]

"a lot" but presumably not enough to keep the series going...

[KateLM]

A bit out of the blue, but I don't think anyone can say they saw the series having much of a future. There may be a place for a low-cost series without teams somewhere, but it wasn't under the F2 banner. Trying to position what was basically a souped-up version of Formula Palmer Audi as an alternative to GP2/WSbR was never going to work. And GP3 launching the year after pretty much killed off any chance of it finding a legitimate place on the feeder ladder.

[jonpollak]

Too many sub series that amount to nothing...
The loss is a Wheat from Chaff type thing.

Kate's right too..GP3 is more relevant.
Jp

[Vitesse2]

Too many sub series that amount to nothing...
The loss is a Wheat from Chaff type thing.

Kate's right too..GP3 is more relevant.
Jp

Nail.

Head.

[maverick69]

They should have had F2 on the F1 bill from the start........ But that wouldn't have lined Bernie and Flav's pockets.......

Shame. And the fact that a young man's life was lost during the short lived project makes it even more of a farce.

[pingu666]

I think we can conclude that those with money dont want to compete on a equal footing

[Risil]

I think we can conclude that those with money dont want to compete on a equal footing

Not to mention away from the glances of the F1 paddock.

[Felix]

They should have had F2 on the F1 bill from the start........ But that wouldn't have lined Bernie and Flav's pockets.......

Shame. And the fact that a young man's life was lost during the short lived project makes it even more of a farce.

Another failed Mosley initiative.

[Clatter]

I think we can conclude that those with money dont want to compete on a equal footing

Not sure that is a valid conclusion. GP2 and 3 is doing Ok. I'd say the main problem is that is wasn't really a stepping stone to F1, and that's what the drivers would be aiming for.

[pingu666]

gp2 and 3 you have a spec car with different teams, and f2 you had one big team and the personal running the cars where always swapping about

being away from the f1 circus was the biggest downside to it

[BRG]

This was always about politics rather than about racing. We didn't need F2, it was just invented to screw with GP2 & 3. Something called Formula 2 should be an open series sitting between F1 and F3, not a total spec series.

[rhukkas]

This game is about money. Anyone who has read Alex Lloyd's article on Jalopnik will know.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I'm not sure someone like Alex Lloyd can really complain.

[kosmic33]

I'm not sure someone like Alex Lloyd can really complain.

LOL

Cant say I care about the loss of F2.
Crap series
Crap cars
Average drivers

Anything that helps reduce the dilution of the single seater ladder is a good thing in my mind!

Edited by kosmic33, 07 December 2012 - 11:54.

[BackmarkerUK]

Regardless of the merits of the series (I was personally a fan), Formula Two closing down means that there are a number of hardworking mechanics who now find themselves out of jobs. I hope that these guys find work soon.

[BullHead]

I think that the arrive and drive, car supplied format, didn't quite cut it for an FiA series calling itself F2, and although the prize was a F1 test - I don't think it was looked at too seriously as a step in the ladder, well certainly not the step it was at first purported to be, so drivers stopped looking at it as somewhere to spend their budget.
MSV and Palmer are now getting this F4 series going which at least is encouraging team participants and whilst having the accessability spirit of the foregone Formula Palmer Audi, and is a spec series, it is not just arrive and drive. Who knows, if F4 is successful, and it looks good to me so far, then the F2 idea may come back in the future, with a better model for the format.

[skinnylizard]

why isnt there a feeder series with more F1 teams involved? like a one car junior team run by Williams, McLaren etc?

probably coz plenty of 19 year olds get hired straight into F1 card i suppose.

[noikeee]

The problem was that setting this up as a theoretical alternative to GP2 didn't make sense. The cars were far too slow for that. So instead of F1 hopefuls we ended up with a bunch of kids that graduated from lesser, obscure F3 series or other lower levels, that didn't have the money to move to series like GP3, British/Euroseries F3 or WSR instead.

It was a good idea executed in a half-assed way that never fit together right.

Ideas that could have fixed it:

- Considerably quicker car even if it pumped up the budget, be it through better aero or meatier engines
- More relevant racing towards F1 with things like DRS and F1-style Pirelli tyres, even if it pumped up the budget
- Given it can't be a support series for F1 as GP2/GP3 are already in that deal, make it a permanent support series for the other FIA championships like WTCC and WEC.
- Give a prize testing day for the winner with a F1 team, like WSR have.

This would simply force a better talent pool, as drivers who have some cash but not enough to do GP2 or WSR would move here instead. Even with the better cars that would ramp up the costs, a series where FIA controls the money would surely always be better value for money than GP2 and WSR, where the organizers, the teams and/or Dallara take massive sums into their pockets.

Would make far more sense than a poor alternative for F3 named F2.

Edited by noikeee, 07 December 2012 - 10:16.

[FerrariV12]

Great news!!

Still hoping for a proper F2 (i.e. an open series positioned between F1 and F3) to re-emerge in my life-time, although I'm not holding out much hope of that.

[Fastcake]

Joe Saward seems to think that axing the existing series was to clear the way for a new and improved Formula Two to be made by the FIA. Which, if they can keep the costs low, would be a very good thing.

Not sure that is a valid conclusion. GP2 and 3 is doing Ok. I'd say the main problem is that is wasn't really a stepping stone to F1, and that's what the drivers would be aiming for.

I wouldn't say they're doing that well. The costs in GP2 have rocketed up in recent years, and we're getting a lot of Teixeria types with no talent but big wallets occupying too many of the seats. And the organisers don't care, they're simply sitting there extorting as much money as they can.

It was a good idea executed in a half-assed way that never fit together right.

Ideas that could have fixed it:

- Considerably quicker car even if it pumped up the budget, be it through better aero or meatier engines
- More relevant racing towards F1 with things like DRS and F1-style Pirelli tyres, even if it pumped up the budget
- Given it can't be a support series for F1 as GP2/GP3 are already in that deal, make it a permanent support series for the other FIA championships like WTCC and WEC.
- Give a prize testing day for the winner with a F1 team, like WSR have.

This would simply force a better talent pool, as drivers who have some cash but not enough to do GP2 or WSR would move here instead. Even with the better cars that would ramp up the costs, a series where FIA controls the money would surely always be better value for money than GP2 and WSR, where the organizers, the teams and/or Dallara take massive sums into their pockets.

Would make far more sense than a poor alternative for F3 named F2.

You've got the same opinion as me - a good idea that didn't work. I do hope a new lower cost series will learn from it's mistakes, we need something that is cheaper but with a higher quality field. A better car/s would be the first step, but it'll have to be built by someone who doesn't ramp up costs just to line their pockets. There will probably need to be a strict cost control, especially if they want to try for a non-spec series.

On your last two points, I'm not sure how it has been this year but in the past it was often a support race for the WTCC, although I'm not sure how much of an advantage that really brings. Also, Williams did provide a test for the champion, being the ones who constructed the cars.

[noikeee]

I went to look it up and Williams did indeed test Bortolotti and Stoneman the past 2 years, I'd missed it. Presumably they'll give a day in the car to Bacheta next time.

[Ross Stonefeld]

He already had it, but it seemed to be more of a demo run.

[ezequiel]

This could benefit AutoGP, as it is already cheaper than GP2 or FR3.5 and running a much interesting car than F2.

[rhukkas]

The reason no-one cares about F2 is that those who do it can't afford to pay for an F1 drive, hence why they do it.

The game is getting worse, and no wonder no one gives a **** about anything other than F1 because it's mostly a bunch of rich-kids or government backed kids.

[ebeneezer2]

Another vote for 'good idea, shame it didn't work'. I think Formula 2 was a good model for how all series below F1 should work - the problem is, as long as there are other series alongside that do allow richer drivers to go faster, that's where the drivers you've heard of will go, so the drivers in Formula 2 will be perceived as weaker drivers. I remember comments along the lines of 'well if Andy Soucek can win Formula 2, that shows how bad the field is - he wasn't any good in GP2'. This seemed like a shallow argument, he didn't do well in GP2 because he drove for one of the worst teams, surely you can get a better idea of how good a driver is in a genuine one-make series than you can in a series where the performances are distorted by the size of budget a driver has brought.
Also the lack of attention from Formula 1 teams I suggest comes down to the money issue too. Given that new drivers are being required to bring in huge sponsorship deals, it's inevitable that the rich GP2 drivers are going to be the ones that end up being promoted - nothing to do with the Formula 1 teams thinking the Formula 2 drivers aren't good enough (unless they are also falling for the 'Soucek fallacy').
I'm also a bit confused by how often people say they wish that the lower formulae were multi-chassis, multi-engine, multi-tyre even. This would drive the costs up, would make it even harder to see who the better drivers were (as opposed to who's bought/lucked into the best package), and at the end of the day are there really that many people who care whether Mercedes or Volkswagen make better Formula 3 engines?

[maximilian]

This is probably a stupid question, but what would happen if you'd throw all the defunct and semi-defunct series cars together into ONE series (Formula 2, AutoGP, Superleague, Formula Nippon, leftover old spec Dallara Indycars, any others out there?) and just let them have at it?

Would there be too great a disparity between them to clearly favor one spec, and clearly leave behind others? Or could it actually make for an interesting playing field?

[Ross Stonefeld]

There'd be seconds a lap differences between cars. Even if you could find a way to equalise them for weight, downforce, and power; over time there would be an ideal car and most people would move in that direction.

[jonpollak]

In that case...
Cross thread alert!!!
QUESTOR GRAND PRIX

Jp

[maximilian]

There'd be seconds a lap differences between cars. Even if you could find a way to equalise them for weight, downforce, and power; over time there would be an ideal car and most people would move in that direction.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I figured. It was before my time, but I guess something somewhat similar was in place with Formula 5000, but maybe there were easier ways to make it work back then. Seems like such a waste to just let all these half-ass series/cars languish around, instead of pooling them all into one and making it an interesting spectacle.

[noikeee]

I'm also a bit confused by how often people say they wish that the lower formulae were multi-chassis, multi-engine, multi-tyre even. This would drive the costs up, would make it even harder to see who the better drivers were (as opposed to who's bought/lucked into the best package), and at the end of the day are there really that many people who care whether Mercedes or Volkswagen make better Formula 3 engines?

I agree but that argument isn't about grooming drivers, but rather grooming teams and car designers/engineers/etc for Formula 1. Currently there isn't a ladder to F1 for them at all. Best case scenario you get to design a LMP car, or work for a Dallara type spec-series constructor where you have no competition.

[billm99uk]

Well obviously someone must have been watching it, since Tuscher won AUTOSPORT's Rookie of the Year award:

Matheo Tuscher wins Rookie of the Year

Confess I can't remember if that's one of the ones that's decided by a vote or someone just picks the winner, though

[DrProzac]

- Give a prize testing day for the winner with a F1 team, like WSR have.

I think the price was a test for Williams F1.

A bit shame, I watched a few races, it wasn't that bad.

This was always about politics rather than about racing. We didn't need F2, it was just invented to screw with GP2 & 3. Something called Formula 2 should be an open series sitting between F1 and F3, not a total spec series.

Yeah , but it looks like we wont get any non-spec series in foreseeable future. Actually F1 regulations changes slowly moves it towards a virtually spec series.

[dank]

Well obviously someone must have been watching it, since Tuscher won AUTOSPORT's Rookie of the Year award:

Matheo Tuscher wins Rookie of the Year

Confess I can't remember if that's one of the ones that's decided by a vote or someone just picks the winner, though

Voting was conducted through the Autosport website.

[HP]

Another failed Mosley initiative.

You nailed it. Mosley's main concern was about control. Hence when it was set up, political considerations (sold with a price tag of being affordable) were too strong to be interesting for people mainly interested in racing.

IMO they way to go forward is to see where F2 historically did fit in, and how it developed. Not all would work in this day and age. Still soon there is a pile of F1 retired engines available again to be used somewhere. So maybe the closing down of the current F2 series is a a prelude to that.

[Bleu]

Sadly, the first thing to come into my mind about this series is the death of Henry Surtees.

[Ross Stonefeld]

You nailed it. Mosley's main concern was about control. Hence when it was set up, political considerations (sold with a price tag of being affordable) were too strong to be interesting for people mainly interested in racing.

IMO they way to go forward is to see where F2 historically did fit in, and how it developed. Not all would work in this day and age. Still soon there is a pile of F1 retired engines available again to be used somewhere. So maybe the closing down of the current F2 series is a a prelude to that.

Id actually say F2 was more about the racing than the politics. It was down to the driver to get on with it. The genesis may have had political issues but things always do.

[handel]

You nailed it. Mosley's main concern was about control. Hence when it was set up, political considerations (sold with a price tag of being affordable) were too strong to be interesting for people mainly interested in racing.

IMO they way to go forward is to see where F2 historically did fit in, and how it developed. Not all would work in this day and age. Still soon there is a pile of F1 retired engines available again to be used somewhere. So maybe the closing down of the current F2 series is a a prelude to that.

There won't be tons of V8s just sat around though. Even these engines are not designed to do more than about 4 races, and on top of that they need trained engineers, manufacturer backed computer equipment and of course parts! Making an affordable series is just not possible with F1 tech of any era.

[Rubens Hakkamacher]

The problem with all of these series is that people, the organizations, are looking at it in reverse.

Again - car racing is *entertainment*.

Making up a formula, trying to gather up teams and THEN getting venues and doing a little bit of promotion isn't going to work anymore.

Someone should try to secure the rights to use 10 tracks. Secure prize money, promotion.

Then, announce a "reversed" spec: you can run anything with 4 wheels that has a certain power/weight requirement, minimum/maximum wheelbase. Old F1 cars, retired A1GP, whatever - figure out what a minimum would be so the stronger cars could be ballasted.

You could then have plenty of entrants with existing cars, not to mention it would be closer to F1 than existing F1. Probably a lot cheaper, obviously. Run a 34 car field.

I would love to watch that.

[kosmic33]

The problem with all of these series is that people, the organizations, are looking at it in reverse.

Again - car racing is *entertainment*.

Making up a formula, trying to gather up teams and THEN getting venues and doing a little bit of promotion isn't going to work anymore.

Someone should try to secure the rights to use 10 tracks. Secure prize money, promotion.

Then, announce a "reversed" spec: you can run anything with 4 wheels that has a certain power/weight requirement, minimum/maximum wheelbase. Old F1 cars, retired A1GP, whatever - figure out what a minimum would be so the stronger cars could be ballasted.

You could then have plenty of entrants with existing cars, not to mention it would be closer to F1 than existing F1. Probably a lot cheaper, obviously. Run a 34 car field.

I would love to watch that.

Boy do I have a treat for you!
http://www.interserie.org/
http://www.icon.co.z...vinw/page6.html
http://www.castlecombecircuit.co.uk/Circui...ck!/182.htm

[DrProzac]

Still soon there is a pile of F1 retired engines available again to be used somewhere. So maybe the closing down of the current F2 series is a a prelude to that.

Well, probably after detunning for reliability the engines would have the same power as F1 cars will have in the future

[PayasYouRace]

It seemed like a great idea but it was pitched wrongly. It certainly wasn't the step below F1 and wasn't high profile enough for the F2 name. But the idea of providing reasonably quick cars for young talents to thrash about on equal terms is a good one.

There are often complaints about how there are too many feeder series. I can understand this point of view from the perspective of trying to spot the next big thing. However, from the point of view of the young man or woman who wants to go racing, something like what F2 was doing seems like a great option.

[Rubens Hakkamacher]

Boy do I have a treat for you!
http://www.icon.co.z...vinw/page6.html

Yeah, that's cool! I'm sure there's a lot of interesting comparisons/speculations as to the relative performance of the cars. *That* is almost the only reason non-TF drag racing is popular: everyone weighing their thoughts on which car's mechanical combination works best.

Something missing from F1 with the frozen engines, spec tires, etc. Oh well.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Can you imagine the rows if cars weren't running to the same rules? I mean really. Performance balancing and different engine types is already a massive problem in touring and sportscar racing.

You can run those kinds of series if you have amateur drivers who are happy to drive around.

[kosmic33]

You can run those kinds of series if you have amateur drivers who are happy to drive around.

It could be a success then - well Max Chiltons bought into the concept anyway (or at least his dad literally has anyway)