25 replies to this topic

[BackOnTop]

FIA- Grosjean ban ‘not just for affecting the championship’
http://www.f1fanatic...alty-explained/

FIA stewards have given rare insight into how penalties are decided in a feature for the FIA’s new magazine Auto.

One of the most contentious decisions of the season was Romain Grosjean’s one-race ban for causing a collision at the start of the Belgian Grand Prix which removed himself, Lewis Hamilton, Fernando Alonso and Sergio Perez from the race.

Grosjean’s ban, the first for an F1 driver in 18 years, attracted much discussion at the time, particularly over the stewards’ admission that it was levied in part because “it eliminated leading championship contenders from the race”.

FIA Institute deputy president Garry Connelly, who served as a steward at the several races this year including the Belgian Grand Prix, explained the thinking behind Grosjean’s ban: “That incident could have completely changed the outcome of the FIA’s premier championship.

"But what Romain got the extra penalty for was not that, or at least not wholly for that."

“When you’re a relatively new driver to Formula One and you have the privilege of driving in a potentially winning or podium finish car, you’re mixing it with a group of drivers who have many years more experience than you do at the sharp end of the field.

“It therefore behoves you, in our view, to exercise greater care and attention because you are, in our view, with all due respect, the new kid on the block and maybe a little out of your league compared with the guys around you at that end of the grid.

“It was a very serious decision and one that was taken only after lengthy weighting of the facts, the evidence, history, everything. However, every decision weighs heavily on the stewards’ minds. No decision to penalise a driver is ever taken lightly.”

FIA Auto Magazine- http://www.fia.com/m...ia/fia-inmotion

Edited by BackOnTop, 10 December 2012 - 07:32.

[BackOnTop]

So what the FIA are saying is that if you are lucky enough to get a drive with a good team, you better show you are good enough yourself to mix it up with the big great boys on the grid when you qualify in the Top 10.

It's a great mentality that lets pay drivers/ manager backed drivers taking seats in competitive teams, making them aware of what it takes to prove they are deserving to start races alongside Vettel, Alonso, Raikkonen, Hamilton & Button by driving in a car similar to theirs.... who have worked hard in Formula 1 for many many years to reach this level in the first place.

What Grosjean did was qualify higher in a good car, which if driven by any decent. F1 driver would reach good spots in any case. But what it takes to actually race in pressure situation on Sunday's takes years of experience, or something these World Champions were born with.

In a major outcome, it will usually be these 5 drivers fighting for wins & the leading towards World Championship points. If people like Grosjean & Maldonado keep interfering with the major battles at the front, they better be good enough to keep it together.

It is pretty obvious that Grosjean did affect this Championship, even though Vettel is correctly the Champion due to other mishaps. Maybe a suggestion that Grosjean first needs to learn traffic driving skills by joining Marussia for a year. I think it is generally regarded that most F1 drivers are fast, but it's not the reason why drivers win World Championships, there is more to that.

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[CrashPad]

The punishment for a crime should not depend on the identity of the victims, if you ask me

[selespeed]

3 race ban was more appropriate for the idiocy of mr. grosjean.

[bourbon]

The punishment for a crime should not depend on the identity of the victims, if you ask me

Everything else equal, that would be true, but everything else wasn't equal. The stewards are correct; everyone makes mistakes, but taking history into consideration, Grosjean had showed problems in that regard and a tougher sanction was warranted. At the front, there is an extra responsibility because sport is consumer/sponsor driven and since the majority are focused on those at the sharp end of the grid, neither group is happy if a top contender is taken out. It is the same when top contenders are out of place or passing backmarkers. There is no need to hop out of the way, but extra care should be taken against undue risk. It is dicey enough without these types of incidents.

[Sakae]

Small mistake with big consequences, marred with questionable judgements all around. What I would like to know rather that it has taken several (7?) similar incidents by the same driver, before stewards reacted against him specifically, and not against other drivers. (Maldo for example).

I am puzzled that series of mishaps was allowed to escallate, and problem wasn't addressed internally by Lotus much earlier. Lotus could and should have reprimanded or even suspended their driver internally much earlier on; no need for seven incidents.

[KirilVarbanov]

FIA really don't want to deal with the real problem, right?
Next year we have more rookies coming, and I'm by no means sure that these guys are ready for F1. They can't be properly ready, as the feeder series are nowhere near close to what's really in F1, nor the young drivers tests are enough. So, no training - more and more incidents.

[AlexS]

The punishment for a crime should not depend on the identity of the victims

Championship competitors does not mean Identity. It could have been anyone in that place. There was more damage to the show hitting 2 championship competitors .
Other than that i agree that is an iffy situation because of definition of what is championship competitor and when it starts to be a championship fight.


I think Grosjean is a special case - btw i think he should have got the race ban or even more and not related to championship issue- a driver that forgets that another driver is in front of him is too dangerous.

[CrashPad]

Championship competitors does not mean Identity. It could have been anyone in that place.

Yeah, my point was that had Grosjean started from 16th and taken out, let's say, a couple of Toro Rosso's and a Williams, the punishment should have been the same he received now. But apparently that might not have been the case, if that piece of news is anything to go by. And I think that is a bit silly.

[One]

Championship competitors does not mean Identity. It could have been anyone in that place. There was more damage to the show hitting 2 championship competitors .
Other than that i agree that is an iffy situation because of definition of what is championship competitor and when it starts to be a championship fight.


I think Grosjean is a special case - btw i think he should have got the race ban or even more and not related to championship issue- a driver that forgets that another driver is in front of him is too dangerous.

For the outcome of 2012 WDC it made huge impact that Alonso could have won the title. But it is like anyother thing, like three championships of Michael Schumacher did not go as he wished after his comeback. You may neber know if Grosjean had not the crash if Alonso might have won the title.

From the team's point of view as Grosjean is a fast driver with much potential it wants Grosjean to learn by himself rather than prohibiting his action thereby diminishing the potential. Just like in the case of Maldonado or whoever new boy, the team will let the boys race in order to take max out. The teams operates in very self centered fashion, and that is part of the game of sport.

But from FIA's point of view, it wants to assure that the championship is carried out in the most fair and competitive manner. It is unusual for FIA to give out race ban, tho. Any ban will implicated carrier and money stream to the team and driver and that is a heavy penalty to give out. I certainly believes that FIA will not give out such decision like éveryday' decision.

I personnaly was surprised that it happened, but at the same time, I understood the necessity. It may calm down Grosjean who is fast but a bit careless driver. Anymore of actions like that would most certainly devastate the out come of the championship. FIA was correct to make example of such action for the quality of the championship.

Someone mentioned that the 2013 grid will be filled more with rookies. We all think that Good driver like Kamui should get seat, instead of these rookies. So, I agree that for example, Esteban might get race ban or two if he does not behave accordingly. If his carrier and the team's reputation to be damaged by the FIA ban, then I would say Esteban is just not ready for it.

Like Bernie ever said, Formula One is for Big Boys. If your are ready then step in, if not get ready for being trashed if he does not perform at the highest level. Formula one need to maintain its level of skill.

[BackOnTop]

A Rookie driver basically shouldn't be allowed to "learn his basic driving skills" in a race-winning car! If he has lucked into a very good car because of contacts without any proven record... then he better show that he can come out in one piece and is not considered a dangerous driver crashing a very fast car.

If you ain't good enough to keep it together in almost 60% of the races per season.... you rather he start dead last in a slow car, which really is what his skills deserve for that season. Grosjean in a Lotus is not good enough to racing alongside the top 10 at the moment.

People keep harping that he has raw speed... which is bullsh!t. His raceday comparision to his teammate is awful to say the least- 18-2 approx, ban included.... along with Kimi's 2 year sabbatical.

Even Petrov got a podium, but his talent was deserving of a slower car like Caterham after he kept spinning and crashing his faster Renault. First learn to drive a Sedan, then apply for a Lamborghini!

Petrov hardly crashes anymore since the switch to a slower/steadier car.

Edited by BackOnTop, 10 December 2012 - 11:17.

[joshb]

I feel uncomfortable when drivers get penalised for taking out championship contenders. It implies to me if they did the same to the Caterhams/Marussias, its less of a problem
Also, I do feel the top drivers do tend to get away with 50/50 decisions more than those in the lower ranked teams.

[noikeee]

Yeah, my point was that had Grosjean started from 16th and taken out, let's say, a couple of Toro Rosso's and a Williams, the punishment should have been the same he received now. But apparently that might not have been the case, if that piece of news is anything to go by. And I think that is a bit silly.

100% agreed there.

[Clatter]

A Rookie driver basically shouldn't be allowed to "learn his basic driving skills" in a race-winning car! If he has lucked into a very good car because of contacts without any proven record... then he better show that he can come out in one piece and is not considered a dangerous driver crashing a very fast car.

If you ain't good enough to keep it together in almost 60% of the races per season.... you rather he start dead last in a slow car, which really is what his skills deserve for that season. Grosjean in a Lotus is not good enough to racing alongside the top 10 at the moment.

People keep harping that he has raw speed... which is bullsh!t. His raceday comparision to his teammate is awful to say the least- 18-2 approx, ban included.... along with Kimi's 2 year sabbatical.

Even Petrov got a podium, but his talent was deserving of a slower car like Caterham after he kept spinning and crashing his faster Renault. First learn to drive a Sedan, then apply for a Lamborghini!

Petrov hardly crashes anymore since the switch to a slower/steadier car.

First off it's nonsense to think that a rookie learns their basic driving skills only when they reach F1. They have to learn and prove themselves in the minor series first.

Secondly, just because RG has had problems adjusting is not a good reason to expect all rookies to be condemned to the back of the grid. If that were the case we would have missed the likes of LH pushing a WDC in his rookie year.

[Ulysses777]

FIA really don't want to deal with the real problem, right?
Next year we have more rookies coming, and I'm by no means sure that these guys are ready for F1. They can't be properly ready, as the feeder series are nowhere near close to what's really in F1, nor the young drivers tests are enough. So, no training - more and more incidents.

Another thing to note, with the retirement of Schumacher, next year there is now the prospect of possibly the first time ever, an F1 driver lineup where not one driver has participated an an F1 event where another driver has been killed.

[Clatter]

Another thing to note, with the retirement of Schumacher, next year there is now the prospect of possibly the first time ever, an F1 driver lineup where not one driver has participated an an F1 event where another driver has been killed.

And what difference do you expect that to make?

[undersquare]

They should penalise behaviour, not the outcomes, and not according to status.

Grosjean's penalty was fine afaic, being for a long series of contacts, but for example Vettel should have had one for his dangerous sideways jink in Austin, and another for recklessly claiming the apex at T4 in Brazil when he couldn't see but knew he was in a pack.

But it's hard to achieve this degree of consistency when emotions naturally pull them in other directions. F1 would have erupted if these penalties had been given to Sebi.

Still, it sounds like the stewards don't even really understand the principles.

[BackOnTop]

First off it's nonsense to think that a rookie learns their basic driving skills only when they reach F1. They have to learn and prove themselves in the minor series first.

Secondly, just because RG has had problems adjusting is not a good reason to expect all rookies to be condemned to the back of the grid. If that were the case we would have missed the likes of LH pushing a WDC in his rookie year.

I did mention some drivers are born with racecraft.. reference to the 5 Champions on the grid who immediately showed they won't go crazy on the first lap. Hamilton has been a rare exception to have shown it in a race winning car immediately.

That's the whole issue basically, it is feasible to keep Hamilton over Grosjean for a top team based on their first year. Grosjean would have fared better if he had started his career with a lower ranked team than 4th & 5th (Mercedes).

But Grosjean could become excellent next year, Lotus might continue with him at a risk. But the FIA's "assessment" of Grosjean suggests that they think he has not yet earned that "privilege" of a Top 4 car. FIA is suggesting Grosjean couldn't safely handle a top 4 car which is going to race with the championship contenders.

Also, Spa 2009 where he was involved with 1st Lap accident with Button (WDC contender) & Hamilton.


FIA Institute's Grosjean Assessment:
“When you’re a relatively new driver to Formula One and you have the privilege of driving in a potentially winning or podium finish car, you’re mixing it with a group of drivers who have many years more experience than you do at the sharp end of the field.

“It therefore behoves you, in our view, to exercise greater care and attention because you are, in our view, with all due respect, the new kid on the block and maybe a little out of your league compared with the guys around you at that end of the grid".

Edited by BackOnTop, 10 December 2012 - 14:39.

[Fastcake]

FIA really don't want to deal with the real problem, right?
Next year we have more rookies coming, and I'm by no means sure that these guys are ready for F1. They can't be properly ready, as the feeder series are nowhere near close to what's really in F1, nor the young drivers tests are enough. So, no training - more and more incidents.

You shouldn't need to drive F1 cars to learn basic race craft, that should of been learnt in feeder series long before you start driving in F1.

[Rikhart]

GP2 is very similar to F1 now, so that "need to learn" stuff is rubbish. He´s just complete bonkers, its unbelievable the number of crashes, especially during starts, he caused. Hope lotus drop him! Also please remember he had previous experience of F1, and was similarly bad.

[LaoTze]

You shouldn't need to drive F1 cars to learn basic race craft, that should of been learnt in feeder series long before you start driving in F1.

[Craven Morehead]

GP2 is very similar to F1 now, so that "need to learn" stuff is rubbish. He´s just complete bonkers, its unbelievable the number of crashes, especially during starts, he caused. Hope lotus drop him! Also please remember he had previous experience of F1, and was similarly bad.

He just seems a little 'over his head' at times doesn't he? It seems Maldonado learned more from Grosjean's ban the Romain.

[hijinx]

He just seems a little 'over his head' at times doesn't he? It seems Maldonado learned more from Grosjean's ban the Romain.

it certainly seems that way doesn't it?

[Skinnyguy]

Small mistake with big consequences, marred with questionable judgements all around.

True. In the end, what Romain did is exactly the same Alonso did in Suzuka start, or in Monza start exiting T2 on first lap. If you look at the incident itself, what he did maybe deserves a DT/grid penalty for next event, not enough for a ban.

But hey, if you take a look at the previous events involving Romain, it starts making sense. I think in the end the decission was right.

[Rinehart]

1. All crashes affect the championship
2. If this had happened at the first race of the championship, how would they know the crash had affected a legitimate challenger?
3. What about the HRT "affecting the championship", variously coming into contact with JB and Vettel earlier in the season.

Basically its ridiculous to consider the identity of the drivers involved and their position in the championship or not. Its subjective and also unfair. A worse accident in terms of driving standards and resultant injury could escape penalties because it didn't matter as much???

Just judge driving based on its competence or not FIA and stop making everything so unnecessarily complicated and political.

[Wolfie]

According to TS Grosjean's seat is under threat since FIA had to drop him as a spokesman for their Road Safety -campaign, which was their intention in the first place. Has anyone heard about it?