228 replies to this topic

[showtime]

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104812

AUTOSPORT team principals' top ten:

1. Fernando Alonso 269
2. Sebastian Vettel 198
3. Lewis Hamilton 177
4. Kimi Raikkonen 176
5. Jenson Button 104
6. Mark Webber 66
7. Nico Hulkenberg 50
8. Nico Rosberg 30
9. Sergio Perez 30
10. Felipe Massa 27

[Anderis]

Obvious bias towards drivers having top cars.

[LiJu914]

Yeah let´s start a thread for every single poll.

Great idea.

[KavB]

How is Button fifth and so far ahead of Webber? He barely finished in front of him in the championship despite having a faster car.

Sometimes I think even the team bosses can't distinguish the ability of drivers from the performance of the cars they drive.

[Vickyy]

Obvious bias towards drivers having top cars.

Exactly, really surprised to see Button and Webber so up there.

[jonpollak]

Mark Hughes' Top 10
Jp

[NadsatII]

Oh. wait! It's team principals voting... Yeah, they must be really biased...

From Alonso Twitter:

Fernando Alonso ‏@alo_oficial
Estos jefes de equipo "alonsistas cegados" que te reconocen todos los años tu trabajo...es lo mejor para seguir trabajando duro. Mil gracias

"These team principals, 'die hard alonsist' who recognize your work every year... that's the best thing to keep you working so hard. Thanks so much"

[kosmos]

F1 Team Principals = Alonso fanboys that try to hard to diminiss Vettel success.

[Atreiu]

Yawn.

[H2H]

Oh. wait! It's team principals voting... Yeah, they must be really biased...

From Alonso Twitter:

Fernando Alonso ‏@alo_oficial
Estos jefes de equipo "alonsistas cegados" que te reconocen todos los años tu trabajo...es lo mejor para seguir trabajando duro. Mil gracias

"These team principals, 'die hard alonsist' who recognize your work every year... that's the best thing to keep you working so hard. Thanks so much"

Indeed.

The top ten according to the team principals over the last 5 years. Counted just full seasons. The factor to adjust the 09 and 08 results was 2.6 (rounded from 2.589) as it was the value closest to get a similar amount of points from both point systems. If you use 2.5 it doesn't change much.

Vettel 191
Alonso 183
Hamilton 179
Button 113
Raikkonen 108
Kubica 95
Webber 72
Massa 63
Rosberg 38
Hulk'berg 34

It is pretty clear that the bosses also think that there are three top drivers, with the 3xWDC slightly ahead of the 2xWDC and a WDC. Then follow two WDCs with Button and Raikkonen with Kubica not far off. Webber and Massa are paired close as well as Rosberg and Hulkenberg.

P.S: As Excel does just need a single change the same parameters with a point-adjustment factor of 2.5... Keep in mind the numbers are of course rounded.

Vettel 188
Alonso 182
Hamilton 176
Button 112
Raikkonen 106
Kubica 93
Webber 71
Massa 61
Rosberg 38
Hulk'berg 34

Even if you get the Paf as stupidly low as 2 it really doesn't change much.

Vettel 177
Alonso 173
Hamilton 160
Button 105
Raikkonen 97
Kubica 83
Webber 68
Massa 51
Rosberg 38
Hulk'berg 34

Edited by H2H, 13 December 2012 - 12:38.

[H2H]

F1 Team Principals = Alonso fanboys that try to hard to diminiss Vettel success.

Touché - as seen over the last 5 years...

[matthewf1]

Another boost for the Samurai's enormous ego.....

[H2H]

For those looking for the data of the last 5 years here I have them collected. Some are not directly from the Autosport page so I can not vouch for IIRC 09 and 08.

2012 AUTOSPORT team principals' top ten:

1. Fernando Alonso 269
2. Sebastian Vettel 198
3. Lewis Hamilton 177
4. Kimi Raikkonen 176
5. Jenson Button 104
6. Mark Webber 66
7. Nico Hulkenberg 50
8. Nico Rosberg 30
9. Sergio Perez 30
10. Felipe Massa 27

2011

1. Vettel 241 UP 1
2. Button 200 UP 4
3. Alonso 188 DOWN 2
4. Hamilton 122 DOWN 1
5. Rosberg 90 UP 2
6. Webber 70 DOWN 2
7. Di Resta 44 NEW ENTRY
8. Sutil 38 RE-ENTRY FROM 2009
9. Kovalainen 26 RE-ENTRY FROM 2008
10. Schumacher 23 NEW ENTRY

2010

1. Alonso 229
2. Vettel 220
3. Hamilton 196
4. Webber 146
5. Kubica 129
6. Button 86
7. Rosberg 68
8. Hulkenberg 17
. Massa 17
10. Barrichello 11

2009

1. Sebastian Vettel 76
2. Jenson Button 67
3. Lewis Hamilton 65
4. Fernando Alonso 39
5. Rubens Barrichello 35
6= Kimi Raikkonen 30
6= Mark Webber 30
8. Felipe Massa 19
9. Robert Kubica 10
10. Adrian Sutil 8

2008

1. Lewis Hamilton (88 points)
2. Felipe Massa (86 points)
3= Fernando Alonso (50 points)
3= Robert Kubica (50 points)
5. Sebastian Vettel (37 points)
6. Kimi Raikkonen (27 points)
7. Timo Glock (13 points)
8. Heikki Kovalainen (10 points)
9. Nick Heidfield (4 points)
10= Adrian Sutil (3 points)
10= Jarno Trulli (3 points)

Edited by H2H, 13 December 2012 - 13:09.

[Seanspeed]

List seems fine to me.

As far as it being biased towards top cars, its no coincidence the best drivers are in the top teams. Doesn't need to be bias.

Also, thanks H2H for the compiling. Interesting.

Edited by Seanspeed, 13 December 2012 - 13:02.

[prty]

Indeed.

The top ten according to the team principals over the last 5 years. Counted just full seasons. The factor to adjust the 09 and 08 results was 2.6 (rounded from 2.589) as it was the value closest to get a similar amount of points from both point systems. If you use 2.5 it doesn't change much.

Vettel 191
Alonso 183
Hamilton 179
Button 113
Raikkonen 108
Kubica 95
Webber 72
Massa 63
Rosberg 38
Hulk'berg 34

It is pretty clear that the bosses also think that there are three top drivers, with the 3xWDC slightly ahead of the 2xWDC and a WDC. Then follow two WDCs with Button and Raikkonen with Kubica not far off. Webber and Massa are paired close as well as Rosberg and Hulkenberg.

P.S: As Excel does just need a single change the same parameters with a point-adjustment factor of 2.5... Keep in mind the numbers are of course rounded.

Vettel 188
Alonso 182
Hamilton 176
Button 112
Raikkonen 106
Kubica 93
Webber 71
Massa 61
Rosberg 38
Hulk'berg 34

Even if you get the Paf as stupidly low as 2 it really doesn't change much.

Vettel 177
Alonso 173
Hamilton 160
Button 105
Raikkonen 97
Kubica 83
Webber 68
Massa 51
Rosberg 38
Hulk'berg 34

Touché - as seen over the last 5 years...

And as we like numbers it seems, I computed the correlation factor between team principal ranking and the position of their cars in WCC that year - gives an indication on how the votes are influenced by having a better car - For Vettel: 0.866, For Alonso: 0.794. Uh oh

[Velocifer]

Agree with the list except that Maldonado should be in it. Strange that winning in a lower car is not worth more than what for example Massa has done.

[mnmracer]

And as we like numbers it seems, I computed the correlation factor between team principal ranking and the position of their cars in WCC that year - gives an indication on how the votes are influenced by having a better car - For Vettel: 0.866, For Alonso: 0.794. Uh oh

So you're going to assume that the team principals are idiots that have fastest car bias -as evidenced by this year...- just so you can talk down Vettel?
Is that what your life revolves around these days?

[Fontainebleau]

Indeed.

The top ten according to the team principals over the last 5 years. Counted just full seasons. The factor to adjust the 09 and 08 results was 2.6 (rounded from 2.589) as it was the value closest to get a similar amount of points from both point systems. If you use 2.5 it doesn't change much.

Even if you get the Paf as stupidly low as 2 it really doesn't change much.

I am a bit lost about the way you define the adjusting factor. Correct me if I am wrong, but that would mean that the points system has been changed lineally, but it hasn't - the differences between 1 and 2, for example, has increased far more than the difference between 2 and 3.

So, rather than applying a factor to the total points, wouldn't it make more sense to first come up with a "fake race list" for each year, and then adjust scores?

[mnmracer]

Anyway, with the knowledge that 8 bosses voted for Alonso 1st, I've tried to figure out how the drivers ranked.
Of course this is only a guess, but there are only so many ways you can reach those points over 12 votes.

Fernando Alonso: 8 times 1st, 3 times 2nd, 1 time 3rd
Sebastian Vettel: 3 times 1st, 3 times 2nd, 1 time 3rd, 2 times 4th, 3 times 5th
Lewis Hamilton: 1 time 1st, 3 times 2nd, 4 times 3rd, 2 times 4th, 3 times 5th, 1 time 7th
Kimi Räikkönen: 3 times 2nd, 6 times 3rd, 1 time 4th, 2 times 5th

[Rinehart]

How is Button fifth and so far ahead of Webber? He barely finished in front of him in the championship despite having a faster car.

Sometimes I think even the team bosses can't distinguish the ability of drivers from the performance of the cars they drive.

Well, for I don't know how many season running, I have an almost identical list to the principals. I have Hulkenburg higher, that is about it.

There must be things that me and the principles are considering, which you are not...

[H2H]

Just before work starts:

Teammates (averages over the last 5 years)
Alonso 9
Vettel 72
Hamilton 83

This shows the amount of points the relative teammates got over the last 5 season. In Hamiltons case thus the average from Button+Button+Button+Kova+Kova. Alonsos teammate score does really stand out, could almost not believe it. Of course if we use the supposed correlation result as prty we can suffer from a fallacy. In this case is the WCC standing of teams with Alonso in it so bad because according to the team bosses Alonsos teammates did perform so badly, making Alonso look much better in the correlation.

[LiJu914]

And as we like numbers it seems, I computed the correlation factor between team principal ranking and the position of their cars in WCC that year - gives an indication on how the votes are influenced by having a better car

That´s just your personal assumption and would furthermore mean, that the team principals´ ranking has no more relevance than any other ranking - as you imply that they´re prone to the same errors of judgement as everbody else.

Edited by LiJu914, 13 December 2012 - 13:38.

[GT Racing Online Magazine]

Anyway, with the knowledge that 8 bosses voted for Alonso 1st, I've tried to figure out how the drivers ranked.
Of course this is only a guess, but there are only so many ways you can reach those points over 12 votes.

Fernando Alonso: 8 times 1st, 3 times 2nd, 1 time 3rd
Sebastian Vettel: 3 times 1st, 3 times 2nd, 1 time 3rd, 2 times 4th, 3 times 5th
Lewis Hamilton: 1 time 1st, 3 times 2nd, 4 times 3rd, 2 times 4th, 3 times 5th, 1 time 7th
Kimi Räikkönen: 3 times 2nd, 6 times 3rd, 1 time 4th, 2 times 5th

Pretty sure Boullier voted Kimi but you never know of course

[H2H]

I am a bit lost about the way you define the adjusting factor. Correct me if I am wrong, but that would mean that the points system has been changed lineally, but it hasn't - the differences between 1 and 2, for example, has increased far more than the difference between 2 and 3.

So, rather than applying a factor to the total points, wouldn't it make more sense to first come up with a "fake race list" for each year, and then adjust scores?

No problem. I tended naturally towards the 2.5 as it gives the same value to a win but also compared the total points available under both systems. In this case 101 and 39. 101/39=2.589, and as both results are so close I felt it a good yard stick. It would be interesting to see other, arguably more accurate methods but I think it won't change much.

[prty]

That´s just your personal assumption and would furthermore mean, that the team principals´ ranking has no more relevance than any other ranking - as you imply that they´re prone to the same errors of judgement as everbody else.

OK - then remove that sentence from my post, and leave it the rest for interpretation:

Team principal ranking vs WCC correlation factor - For Vettel: 0.866, For Alonso: 0.794

And we don't have to forget that there is an extra Red Bull team principal who also votes - Franz Tost.

Also, it's interesting that over the last five years these are the averages:

Vettel 191
Alonso 183
Hamilton 179
Button 113
Raikkonen 108
Kubica 95
Webber 72
Massa 63
Rosberg 38
Hulk'berg 34

Given that in those years, Vettel won 3 WDCs while Alonso none.

Edited by prty, 13 December 2012 - 13:52.

[w00dy]

So 4 TPs don't think Alonso was the best.

Horner, obviously.
Tost probably is contractually obligated to vote whichever way Mateschitz wants

The other 2 are more trickier...
I'd say Whitmarsh is crazy enough to vote Lewis as #1, but he is hurt because of him leaving so that's probably a no.
Boullier is in love with Kimi, so he is the 3rd.
I don't know who is the last one, any guess?

[LiJu914]

OK - then remove that sentence from my post, and leave it the rest for interpretation:

Team principal ranking vs WCC correlation factor - For Vettel: 0.866, For Alonso: 0.794

And what does that change?

Principals were asked to rate the drivers. They did. If you put "correlation factors" next to that, you still imply that their opinions are skewed.

Either you accept the principals´opinions in the last years or you don´t. That´s completely up to you.

Edited by LiJu914, 13 December 2012 - 13:52.

[Rinehart]

And as we like numbers it seems, I computed the correlation factor between team principal ranking and the position of their cars in WCC that year - gives an indication on how the votes are influenced by having a better car

The better drivers generally have the better cars.
And the ones that don't, e.g. Hulkenburg, stand out.
Its not a surprise!

[showtime]

So 4 TPs don't think Alonso was the best.

Horner, obviously.
Tost probably is contractually obligated to vote whichever way Mateschitz wants

The other 2 are more trickier...
I'd say Whitmarsh is crazy enough to vote Lewis as #1, but he is hurt because of him leaving so that's probably a no.
Boullier is in love with Kimi, so he is the 3rd.
I don't know who is the last one, any guess?

Horner, Tost, Boullier, Whitmarsh.

[Rinehart]

So 4 TPs don't think Alonso was the best.

Horner, obviously.
Tost probably is contractually obligated to vote whichever way Mateschitz wants

The other 2 are more trickier...
I'd say Whitmarsh is crazy enough to vote Lewis as #1, but he is hurt because of him leaving so that's probably a no.
Boullier is in love with Kimi, so he is the 3rd.
I don't know who is the last one, any guess?

I bet Frank Williams voted for Lewis! Don't see why that was crazy, Did Hamilton drive worse than Alonso this year? This vote has got nothing to do with the points. People just don't get it. Saying things like "what did Jenson do this year apart from win 3 race"? Apart from win 3 races.... Are these people serious. Wins aren't for sale on Amazon ffs!

[bub]

Obvious bias towards drivers having top cars.

And

I think even the team bosses can't distinguish the ability of drivers from the performance of the cars they drive.

If you're not a big name and have a poor car, what you do goes unnoticed.

[mnmracer]

The better drivers generally have the better cars.
And the ones that don't, e.g. Hulkenburg, stand out.
Its not a surprise!

Don't forget Vettel was voted 5th in 2008.

[mnmracer]

And more numbers, this year is the 5th year the team bosses have voted.

• Over the last, the honors for the top 10 have been divided amongst 19 drivers.
• The highest ranked -at the time- non-winner in those 5 years was Nico Rosberg, who received 86 points for 6th in 2010.
• The highest ranked non-winner over 5 years is Adrian Sutil, with 68 points.
• The highest ranked non-winner over 5 years average per (participated) season is Nico Hülkenberg, with 34 points average per season.
• In those 5 years:
  
• Sebastian Vettel was voted best twice and 2nd best twice. In 2008, he was voted 5th best.
• Fernando Alonso was voted best twice, and 3rd best twice. In 2009, he was voted 4th best.
• Lewis Hamilton was voted best once, and 3rd best three times. In 2011, he was voted 4th best.

The 5 year running total top 10 (2008 & 2009 adjusted with factor 2,73):

• Sebastian Vettel: 967
• Fernando Alonso: 929
• Lewis Hamilton: 912
• Jenson Button: 573
• Mark Webber: 364
• Kimi Räikkönen: 331
• Felipe Massa: 330
• Robert Kubica: 293
• Nico Rosberg: 188
• Rubens Barrichello: 106

The 5 year running total top 10 average per season:

• Sebastian Vettel: 193
• Fernando Alonso: 186
• Lewis Hamilton: 182
• Jenson Button: 115
• Kimi Räikkönen: 110
• Robert Kubica: 98
• Mark Webber: 73
• Felipe Massa: 66
• Nico Rosberg: 63
• Nico Hülkenberg: 34

[showtime]

The effort from some forum members to draw the attention away from this season bringing a lot of data from other seasons is amazing. Coincidently (or not) they are part of the group always eager to open or contribute to Alonso bashing threads. I miss some names but they will come, I'm sure. It has to be pretty difficult to deal with the fact that, after all the work done trying to undermine Alonso, people that really work in F1 have named Fernando the best driver of the season by a record margin. I don't understand why instead of celebrating Vettel's championship you waste your time on a crusade against other driver, it's quite sad really.

[mnmracer]

The effort from some forum members to draw the attention away from this season bringing a lot of data from other seasons is amazing. Coincidently (or not) they are part of the group always eager to open or contribute to Alonso bashing threads. I miss some names but they will come, I'm sure. It has to be pretty difficult to deal with the fact that, after all the work done trying to undermine Alonso, people that really work in F1 have named Fernando the best driver of the season by a record margin. I don't understand why instead of celebrating Vettel's championship you waste your time on a crusade against other driver, it's quite sad really.

Does everything you do revolve solely around 'driver x is the best' or 'driver y is the worst'?
Were you offended when the 2006 year review not only said Alonso was champion, but also remarked how Schumacher got the record for most pole positions?
Why don't you just enjoy your driver's win? Why the sour grapes over information?

[joshb]

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104812

AUTOSPORT team principals' top ten:

1. Fernando Alonso 269
2. Sebastian Vettel 198
3. Lewis Hamilton 177
4. Kimi Raikkonen 176
5. Jenson Button 104
6. Mark Webber 66
7. Nico Hulkenberg 50
8. Nico Rosberg 30
9. Sergio Perez 30
10. Felipe Massa 27

Hulk only 7th! What season were they watching???

[P123]

Hulk only 7th! What season were they watching???

One that was 20 races long and not just the last half dozen?

[showtime]

Does everything you do revolve solely around 'driver x is the best' or 'driver y is the worst'? No, only when posting on a thread about a ranking (shocking eh?)
Were you offended when the 2006 year review not only said Alonso was champion, but also remarked how Schumacher got the record for most pole positions? Obviously not but totally unrelated to this thread anyway
Why don't you just enjoy your driver's win? What win?
Why the sour grapes over information? I just find sad that on a thread about this season's ranking two Vettel fans have the need to bring the rankings from other years to make a conveniently new average ranking were, oh surprise, Vettel is ahead. Talking about sour grapes...

[P123]

The effort from some forum members to draw the attention away from this season bringing a lot of data from other seasons is amazing.

I think you are seeing something that wasn't the intention of the stats. They are interesting, especially the averages, as it gives an insight into the perception of the drivers that the team principles have- rating the performances of Vettel/ Alonso/ Hamilton most highly over a period of time, with a gap then to JB and Kimi, and then a gap to the rest of the grid. I think most people would place those 5 drivers as the current top 5 in F1.

[showtime]

I think you are seeing something that wasn't the intention of the stats. They are interesting, especially the averages, as it gives an insight into the perception of the drivers that the team principles have- rating the performances of Vettel/ Alonso/ Hamilton most highly over a period of time, with a gap then to JB and Kimi, and then a gap to the rest of the grid. I think most people would place those 5 drivers as the current top 5 in F1.

I find a bit naive that you think that was the intention. Maybe if you take a look at previous threads/posts from this people you would change your opinion. Maybe is just coincidental, maybe...

[SpaMaster]

Team principals are not immune to the hype created early in the season. Otherwise, how do you explain McLaren hiring Perez? What I find interesting is how close Raikkonen has been rated to Hamilton even though lot of people rated Hamilton no.1 here. So, they are not that bad!

Seriously, what the hell is Massa doing in any top category? For waking up for the last few races?

Edited by SpaMaster, 13 December 2012 - 14:57.

[prty]

I find a bit naive that you think that was the intention. Maybe if you take a look at previous threads/posts from this people you would change your opinion. Maybe is just coincidental, maybe...

No, it's not coincidental

[joshb]

One that was 20 races long and not just the last half dozen?

Button should be lower than him then, he only turned up in 5 or 6. Webber too.
Hulk was a clear best of the rest behind the 'big 3' and not far behind Kimi in 4th for me

[discover23]

Team principals are not immune to the hype created early in the season. Otherwise, how do you explain McLaren hiring Perez? What I find interesting is how close Raikkonen has been rated to Hamilton even though lot of people rated Hamilton no.1 here. So, they are not that bad!

Perez has talent and needs to be polished. Hulk has more experience but who is to say that if you put them both in a top car, Hulk would win? .. no one can tell you this.

[discover23]

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104812

AUTOSPORT team principals' top ten:

1. Fernando Alonso 269
2. Sebastian Vettel 198
3. Lewis Hamilton 177
4. Kimi Raikkonen 176
5. Jenson Button 104
6. Mark Webber 66
7. Nico Hulkenberg 50
8. Nico Rosberg 30
9. Sergio Perez 30
10. Felipe Massa 27

My list had 9 out of this 10.. I just did not include Rosberg and had Maldonado in 10th. Not a bad list.

[Afterburner]

Now what sounds better, "2012 F1 World Drivers' Champion" or "Voted Best in 2012 by F1 Team Principals"?

[SpaMaster]

Perez has talent and needs to be polished. Hulk has more experience but who is to say that if you put them both in a top car, Hulk would win? .. no one can tell you this.

Don't think experience is such a difference maker in the showing of these two drivers. Most people who watched F1 think otherwise.

[mnmracer]

I find a bit naive that you think that was the intention. Maybe if you take a look at previous threads/posts from this people you would change your opinion. Maybe is just coincidental, maybe...

You perceive everything not praising Alonso as trashtalk.
You are so blindly biased, all you can see is checkmarks: [this says something positive about Alonso] = good, [this says something positive about Vettel] = bad
You don't give a damn about discussing Formula One, you're only interested in burning any post that fails to glorify Alonso.
There's more than just Alonso. Get over it.

[boldhakka]

Looks about right. The gap between Vettel and Lewis is too big in terms of points. Hulk should be higher. And I'd add Michael instead of Perez or Massa.

I'm not sure why team principals would know any better than dedicated fans or reasonable journalists, so I'm not sure how much more to weigh this than the other ones.

[showtime]

You perceive everything not praising Alonso as trashtalk.
You are so blindly biased, all you can see is checkmarks: [this says something positive about Alonso] = good, [this says something positive about Vettel] = bad
You don't give a damn about discussing Formula One, you're only interested in burning any post that fails to glorify Alonso.
There's more than just Alonso. Get over it.

There's many people with opinions about Alonso different to mine, I respect them even if I do not agree. But if I think is just pure hating & bashing I speak clear.
I don't have any problem with Vettel really, I've never opened a bashing thread (or any other kind) about him. Not post much on his thread, in fact the last time I posted there I think it was because congratulations were in order.
If you have facts to back you accusations I would like to see it.