228 replies to this topic

[Skinnyguy]

Your post is either a wonderful display of sheer trolling, or a wonderful display of lack of knowledge on F1.

I think it´s a good response to stupid claims being made (currently and in the past):

- Alonso is a key/contributing factor in his current team car´s quality.
- Newey is guarantee of success/success has less value when alongside Newey.

Both have been proven wrong over the years.

Alonso is a world class driver, nothing more, nothing less. He has no 6 tenths for a car in the pocket. He has driven good and bad cars over the years. He has had cars getting better and cars getting worse relative to competitors as season went on. He´s just a driver, a really good one. But he has no effect on a car´s design quality.

Newey is a world class engineer, nothing more, nothing less. Having him with you in a team is no guarantee of anything good/bad. He´s just an engineer, a really good one. But he is no guarantee of success.

And that´s all that post says. And it´s quite good.

[Taxi]

I'm sure Vettel is not worried to be second in this ranking. As long he's 1st in the other one.

[bub]

Your post is either a wonderful display of sheer trolling, or a wonderful display of lack of knowledge on F1.

Maybe both but definitely trolling.

[discover23]

I think it´s a good response to stupid claims being made (currently and in the past):

- Alonso is a key/contributing factor in his current team car´s quality.
- Newey is guarantee of success/success has less value when alongside Newey.

Both have been proven wrong over the years.

Alonso is a world class driver, nothing more, nothing less. He has no 6 tenths for a car in the pocket. He has driven good and bad cars over the years. He has had cars getting better and cars getting worse relative to competitors as season went on. He´s just a driver, a really good one. But he has no effect on a car´s design quality.

Newey is a world class engineer, nothing more, nothing less. Having him with you in a team is no guarantee of anything good/bad. He´s just an engineer, a really good one. But he is no guarantee of success.

And that´s all that post says. And it´s quite good.

Is not a stupid claim, RedBull simply has built faster cars, nothing wrong with that.

[RayInTorontoCanada]

I think it´s a good response to stupid claims being made (currently and in the past):

- Alonso is a key/contributing factor in his current team car´s quality.
- Newey is guarantee of success/success has less value when alongside Newey.

Both have been proven wrong over the years.

Alonso is a world class driver, nothing more, nothing less. He has no 6 tenths for a car in the pocket. He has driven good and bad cars over the years. He has had cars getting better and cars getting worse relative to competitors as season went on. He´s just a driver, a really good one. But he has no effect on a car´s design quality.

Newey is a world class engineer, nothing more, nothing less. Having him with you in a team is no guarantee of anything good/bad. He´s just an engineer, a really good one. But he is no guarantee of success.

And that´s all that post says. And it´s quite good.

Exactly!

It was more of a 'devil's advocate'-type response to Nando Lover's claims that Nando brings 6 tenths and Vettel only wins because of Newey.

Nando himself says he was "fighting Newey".

Your post is either a wonderful display of sheer trolling, or a wonderful display of lack of knowledge on F1.

It's a wonderful display...but not of trolling. As per lack of F1 knowledge, don't speak for me.

I've been following F1 for 32 seasons and I know that they used to test at Fiorano and Mugello until only a few seasons ago.

My boyhood hero, Gilles Villeneuve, tested like crazy at Fiorano. So, it's not lost on me.

Bottom line is that Ferrari have the resources and historical and recent pedigree to win Championships. They haven't. And no amout of moaning and crying by Nando and his fans about the Vettel-Newey axis is going to change those lack of results in 2010 and 2012.

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 17 December 2012 - 20:47.

[ASFA2011]

Exactly!

It was more of a 'devil's advocate'-type response to Nando Lover's claims that Nando brings 6 tenths and Vettel only wins because of Newey.

Nando himself says he was "fighting Newey".



It's a wonderful display...but not of trolling. As per lack of F1 knowledge, don't speak for me.

I've been following F1 for 32 seasons and I know that they used to test at Fiorano and Mugello until only a few seasons ago.

My boyhood hero, Gilles Villeneuve, tested like crazy at Fiorano. So, it's not lost on me.

Bottom line is that Ferrari have the resources and historical and recent pedigree to win Championships. They haven't. And no amout of moaning and crying by Nando and his fans about the Vettel-Newey axis is going to change those lack of results in 2010 and 2012.

What exactly are you trying to accomplish on this thread ? What is your point ? That all the team principals made the wrong choice picking Alonso as the best of 2012 ? So according to you these guys's opinion are not right even tho that they are in a infinite better position ( with all the resources they have available ) than you are ? Is that it ?

[showtime]

What exactly are you trying to accomplish on this thread ? What is your point ? That all the team principals made the wrong choice picking Alonso as the best of 2012 ? So according to you these guys's opinion are not right even tho that they are in a infinite better position ( with all the resources they have available ) than you are ? Is that it ?

Don't feed them, I made that mistake too but it's not worth it.

[mey3059]

I haven't read the whole thread.

How closely do the team principals monitor other drivers performance, won't they be too consumed with their own drivers.
Isn't it possible that they go with the general opinion In the paddock on a race day. They see a race result and award points to a driver, they maybe better informed than us, but it is still an opinion influenced by what people have been saying.

For eg. Everyone hails Alonso's Valencia win as incredible. ( was that the race where he did an over the top celebration? )

Here is how the race turned out

Lap 1: Alonso is 8th behind Hulk
Lap 12: Alonso overtakes Hulk, moves to 7th
( lap 14 hamilton pits from P3, rejoins P13 )
Lap 14: Alonso overtakes Maldonado, takes P5, behind kimi

(Lap 15: Kobayashi,Kimi pits - Alonso is P3)
Lap 16: Alonso pits, Joins P9 ahead of Kimi ( in effect P4)

Lap 22: Alonso is P4 overtaking Di Riesta , he is 6 seconds behind Hamilton

Lap 28 safety car deployed and Alonso was 3.6s behind hamilton, kimi is 2.6s behind

Safety car period pitstops : Alonso rejoins P3 behind grosjean

Lap 34: Track clear, Alonso overtakes grosjean and takes P2.
Lap 35: Alonso gains P1 after vettel stops.

I chose to ignore his overtakes on people with different strategy.

What I see is a normal race aided with some great pitstops and failures of others. I am not sure people who see just the race results think so.

[Fontainebleau]

I haven't read the whole thread.

How closely do the team principals monitor other drivers performance, won't they be too consumed with their own drivers.
Isn't it possible that they go with the general opinion In the paddock on a race day. They see a race result and award points to a driver, they maybe better informed than us, but it is still an opinion influenced by what people have been saying.

For eg. Everyone hails Alonso's Valencia win as incredible. ( was that the race where he did an over the top celebration? )

Here is how the race turned out

I chose to ignore his overtakes on people with different strategy.

What I see is a normal race aided with some great pitstops and failures of others. I am not sure people who see just the race results think so.

Maybe other people chose to take into account all the overtakes, given the track? Also, don't forget that overtaking people with different strategies is crucial to make your strategy work.

[gillesthegenius]

I haven't read the whole thread.

How closely do the team principals monitor other drivers performance, won't they be too consumed with their own drivers.
Isn't it possible that they go with the general opinion In the paddock on a race day. They see a race result and award points to a driver, they maybe better informed than us, but it is still an opinion influenced by what people have been saying.

For eg. Everyone hails Alonso's Valencia win as incredible. ( was that the race where he did an over the top celebration? )

Here is how the race turned out

I chose to ignore his overtakes on people with different strategy.

What I see is a normal race aided with some great pitstops and failures of others. I am not sure people who see just the race results think so.

I dont understand the hype about it too. The only reason he won that day was because Seb's engine gave away, and winning in such a manner doesnt leave a sweet taste in the taste buds, as I found out in Singapore. Seb's drive in Spa was atleast as good as Alonso's drive that day, and it did not get as much hype only because Button's engine didnt blow up on that particular day, like Seb's did in Valencia.

In any case Seb's drive in Bahrain and Fred's drive in Germany were better than the above mentioned drives of both drivers imo, because of the 'perfection' - or a level close to perfection - that was required to pull off those two victories.

[mnmracer]

Maybe other people chose to take into account all the overtakes, given the track? Also, don't forget that overtaking people with different strategies is crucial to make your strategy work.

Isn't Vettel slammed all the time for just profiting off Red Bull's strategists?
How often has Vettel won because he overtook the right people at the right time? I don't recall those drives being hailed as super-duper-amazing for that.

[mey3059]

Maybe other people chose to take into account all the overtakes, given the track? Also, don't forget that overtaking people with different strategies is crucial to make your strategy work.

As far as I remember , he overtook senna, schumi and the likes who were soon to pit. I chose to ignore them coz for me it didn't make any difference to the race outcome . He was already past kimi by pitstop 1 , he gained another position in the safety car pitstop ( Lewis ) .
So, the way I see it , he overtook Hulk, Pastor and Romain for positions , that's it , not a bad race , but he didn't come up against a top quality opponent . I'm sure others see it differently, but I ended up seeing this way coz I was a but surprised at how well this race turned out for Alonso and I put in some effort to see how the race went( read: I downloaded the race timing on the iPhone app and followed Alonso's progress ) .
Not sure any of the TPs bothered ( I doubt if even Stefano bothered )

[Fontainebleau]

As far as I remember , he overtook senna, schumi and the likes who were soon to pit. I chose to ignore them coz for me it didn't make any difference to the race outcome . He was already past kimi by pitstop 1 , he gained another position in the safety car pitstop ( Lewis ) .
So, the way I see it , he overtook Hulk, Pastor and Romain for positions , that's it , not a bad race , but he didn't come up against a top quality opponent . I'm sure others see it differently, but I ended up seeing this way coz I was a but surprised at how well this race turned out for Alonso and I put in some effort to see how the race went( read: I downloaded the race timing on the iPhone app and followed Alonso's progress ) .
Not sure any of the TPs bothered ( I doubt if even Stefano bothered )

Why would the fact that a driver was soon to pit diminish the merit of that who overtakes him? I fail to see your reasoning: it is not like those guys were getting out of Alonso's way to let him by, is it?

Actually, and in order to see if I understand you, how close to pit were those drivers exactly? Same lap, one or two laps before pit?

Edit: in fact, and having seen this video of Alonso's overtake of Schumacher , it certainly does not seem at all that he was let by. And correct me if I am wrong: didn't the other drivers behind Schumacher find it difficult to overtake the Kaiser in those same circumstances, once Alonso went by?

Edited by Fontainebleau, 18 December 2012 - 10:21.

[gillesthegenius]

Isn't Vettel slammed all the time for just profiting off Red Bull's strategists?
How often has Vettel won because he overtook the right people at the right time? I don't recall those drives being hailed as super-duper-amazing for that.

Good point. Seb's drive at the Yas Marina is knocked down because of two safety cars, from which it is debatable whether he even gained anything; while Alonso's victory, which was clearly aided by (a) an engine failure for the driver - Vettel - who 'deserved' to win that race, (b) a disasterous pit stop for the driver - Hamilton -who 'should have' inherited the victory after the two alternator failures suffered by the Renault engines and © a safety car that gave him a sniff at Grojean, when a place in the last step of the podium was the the best Fernando could realistically hope for, is hailed as a superhuman effort.

But such double standards can be expected from superficial / one eyed veiwers of f1 when one driver bigs himself up while the other plays himself down.

Edited by gillesthegenius, 18 December 2012 - 14:01.

[Fontainebleau]

Isn't Vettel slammed all the time for just profiting off Red Bull's strategists?
How often has Vettel won because he overtook the right people at the right time? I don't recall those drives being hailed as super-duper-amazing for that.

So are you saying that Vettel's detractors are correct and hence Alonso should be slammed too, or that Vettel's detractors are wrong and hence those praising Alonso's race are correct? Because from your post above it is quite unclear - in fact, it could even seem that you are happy to agree with those slamming Alonso but resent those slamming Vettel.

Good point. Seb's drive at the Yas Marina is knocked down because of two safety cars, from which it is debatable whether he even gained anything, while Alonso's victory which was clearly aided by (a) an engine failure for the driver - Vettel - who 'deserved' to win that race, (b) a disasterous pit stop for the driver - Hamilton -who 'should have' inherited the victory after the two alternator failures suffered by the Renault engines and © a safety car that gave him a sniff at Grojean, when a place in the last step of the podium was the the best Fernando could realistically hope for.

But such double standards can be expected from superficial / one eyed veiwers of f1 when one driver bigs himself up while the other plays himself down.

Don't get me wrong, but from your post and for the same reasons I am asking mnmracer the question above, it would seem that you could be a candidate for those double standards you refer to.

Edited by Fontainebleau, 18 December 2012 - 12:35.

[gillesthegenius]

So are you saying that Vettel's detractors are correct and hence Alonso should be slammed too, or that Vettel's detractors are wrong and hence those praising Alonso's race are correct? Because from your post above it is quite unclear - in fact, it could even seem that you are happy to agree with those slamming Alonso but resent those slamming Vettel.


Don't get me wrong, but from your post and for the same reasons I am asking mnmracer the question above, it would seem that you could be a candidate for those double standards you refer to.

How exactly? Could you please care to explain?

[undersquare]

The poll tells me that what Ant said is true: the TP's don't use data to evaluate drivers they get carried along with the hype and points like all the casual fans and lazy media. Alonso clearly went off the boil towards the end but it gets brushed off, just like Vettel's bad patch and his dodgy races in Austin and Brazil. Massa gets into the top 10 because his reasonable races came near the end and were fresh in the memory. Hamilton's rating is all about his car and team failures. Perez was a complete idiot for a third of the races, how can be be better than Di Resta or Kovy...

Depressing, really, if you're a driver trying to break into F1 on merit.

[mey3059]

Why would the fact that a driver was soon to pit diminish the merit of that who overtakes him? I fail to see your reasoning: it is not like those guys were getting out of Alonso's way to let him by, is it?

Actually, and in order to see if I understand you, how close to pit were those drivers exactly? Same lap, one or two laps before pit?

Edit: in fact, and having seen this video of Alonso's overtake of Schumacher , it certainly does not seem at all that he was let by. And correct me if I am wrong: didn't the other drivers behind Schumacher find it difficult to overtake the Kaiser in those same circumstances, once Alonso went by?

See, I said it changed nothing in the course of the race, he was effectively p4 then and he still was even with the overtakes, so I do not see the importance,sure it shows ability or maybe ferrari's traction or superior top speed ( i genuinely dont know ). Kimi who was behind and who did not overtake any of these cars ( i think )was only 2.6s behind Alonso by the time safety car came. ( I don't want to analyze the race further , that is the way I see the race , maybe I see only what I want to see, but this is it )

[Fontainebleau]

How exactly? Could you please care to explain?

Certainly. As I posted above, the post by mnmracer that you supported is quite unclear in terms of what he intends to say: are Vettel's detractors correct and hence Alonso should be slammed too, or are Vettel's detractors wrong and hence those praising Alonso's race are correct? It could even seem that he was happy to agree with those slamming Alonso but resent those slamming Vettel, which would have meant he was using double standards, wouldn't it? And your support would have meant you fell in the same trap.

[prty]

I think it´s a good response to stupid claims being made (currently and in the past):

- Alonso is a key/contributing factor in his current team car´s quality.
- Newey is guarantee of success/success has less value when alongside Newey.

Both have been proven wrong over the years.

Alonso is a world class driver, nothing more, nothing less. He has no 6 tenths for a car in the pocket. He has driven good and bad cars over the years. He has had cars getting better and cars getting worse relative to competitors as season went on. He´s just a driver, a really good one. But he has no effect on a car´s design quality.

Newey is a world class engineer, nothing more, nothing less. Having him with you in a team is no guarantee of anything good/bad. He´s just an engineer, a really good one. But he is no guarantee of success.

And that´s all that post says. And it´s quite good.

No, not really. Alonso's been proving to be very good at helping with the development of the cars, every team manager he's driven for, and tyre brand front people acknowledged that too. With the trend of doing less and less testing, and less elements to develop (tyres, engine), the influence has become very little. It's stupid to use the situation as it is now to say "hey, I was right over what happened 6 years ago", because you are not.

[gillesthegenius]

Certainly. As I posted above, the post by mnmracer that you supported is quite unclear in terms of what he intends to say: are Vettel's detractors correct and hence Alonso should be slammed too, or are Vettel's detractors wrong and hence those praising Alonso's race are correct? It could even seem that he was happy to agree with those slamming Alonso but resent those slamming Vettel, which would have meant he was using double standards, wouldn't it? And your support would have meant you fell in the same trap.

Excuse me. You just cant come up with a paragraph of assumptions to charge me with double standards, could you? Argue the points if you can, but please dont resort to cheap shots at the poster without any solid basis.

And just to make myself clear, I was only pointing out the double standards maintained by some people who were using different yardsticks to judge the drives of both drivers. There was no attempt to judge either of those drives in that post. If you want a judgement, just read my earlier post on this page. Just to put some perspective on that post, I shall say that I rate Seb's drive in Spa above his one at the Yas Marina.

[Skinnyguy]

No, not really. Alonso's been proving to be very good at helping with the development of the cars, every team manager he's driven for, and tyre brand front people acknowledged that too. With the trend of doing less and less testing, and less elements to develop (tyres, engine), the influence has become very little. It's stupid to use the situation as it is now to say "hey, I was right over what happened 6 years ago", because you are not.

I didn´t talk at any point about the current Ferrari situation, have a proper read. Alonso drove good cars, and bad cars, cars improving as season went on, and cars drifting backwards. And it goes for any era: his 2006 went from easily dominant early on to being consistently beaten on speed. Same for 2005. However, in 2008, his car went from rubbish to pretty good. He drove a piece of **** in 2009, but a great car in 2005. He´s just a passenger of team´s shape, like anyone else.

But hey, believe whatever makes you happy.

[Skinnyguy]

Is not a stupid claim, RedBull simply has built faster cars, nothing wrong with that.

I see. When other teams build better cars, it must be the engineers. When Alonso´s team builds better cars, must be his contributions to development.

I don´t see even the more rabbid Vettel fanboys claiming that he´s a big responsable in the current strong position RB has had for several years. That´d be bullshit frankly.

Now, let´s get this straight before getting into a endless debate: drivers do have a role in car´s speed further than the driving itself. Drivers must try to get every weekend to a point where all they can say about the car´s weaknesses is "car feels good, I just need more downforce/power". They do have a role in technical side. But it´s insignificant compared to what the work of engineers and car´s base speed. Drivers technical ability/lack of can make a car ready to finish 5th and 6th go a bit better/worse. Button´s slump in form this year was technical, and shows that there´s work to do from drivers to get the best possible race car every weekend, and that work needs to be done.

But seriously, if anyone claims that a driver´s extra technical knowledge relative to the others is an important factor in a given team general good/bad shape, that´s plain self-deceit. And that´s all I have to say about this. Vettel can make his RB a bit better/worse than the one in the other garage with his work on Friday, but he won´t make RB go up a tier. Same for any other driver. But hey, believe that my driver-engineer is a car developer stuff it it helps you feel better.

Edited by Skinnyguy, 18 December 2012 - 19:03.

[RealRacing]

Lesson of the thread: if you repeat something long enough people will believe it.

The Ferrari had excellent race and straight-line pace but the qualy pace was missing. That's why FA did not qualify well but was able to climb through the order a lot. Add to that a very reliable car, a great damp and wet conditions car, and yes, an excellent driver, and you have the results of FA and Ferrari. However, the fact that the car had some development problems during pre-season and, after that, the consistent downplaying of it by FA and Ferrari, created the image that the car was worse than it really was. All the top drivers, SV, LH and SV had great drives (and others too), but FA and Ferrari were the ones that talked the most. Heck, maybe if FA had shut up about racing Newey and his car supposedly being crap, he would have gained a bit more respect as a driver AND as a person. Playing the victim is getting tiresome and the Samurai thing is ridiculous. The problem with this guy is he's starting to believe the hype and there's nothing worse than that. Hope his attitude improves in 2013.

[RayInTorontoCanada]

I see. When other teams build better cars, it must be the engineers. When Alonso´s team builds better cars, must be his contributions to development.

That is a scintillatingly good line!

The Nando Lovers see it only one way, don't they?

Shame, really.

We will never really know how much Vettel's contribution was to the Newey-RBR axis. But neither Vettel nor his fans would big him up to the insane level that Alonso and his fans do. Bottom line is that Alonso's not won any titles since the middle of the last decade.

What I would like is to see how Alonso fares with a true Number 1 Ace in the other car in a 100% pure Co-Equal Number 1 policy scenario. Either Hamilton or Vettel.

I'd like to see that and see Alonso's reaction when he gets beaten more often than Massa's beaten him - which is very likely to occur with Hamilton/Vettel in the other car.

Somehow, I don't think Alonso would like to see Vettel or Hamilton as co equal Number 1 in the other car. He's never taken it like a true sportsman (in the vein of Vettel or Hamilton or Raikkonen or Button) when the other car was ahead and doesn't take constructive criticism well: (Note his reaction - as reported in media circles -when Pat Fry suggested Nando wasn't getting 100% out of the car in qually (on the Monday following Abu Dhabi.) Nando, basically, lied that the car was only capable of 8th on the grid...but Fry was proven right by Massa in the two following GPs.)

The Ferrari had excellent race and straight-line pace but the qualy pace was missing. That's why FA did not qualify well but was able to climb through the order a lot. Add to that a very reliable car, a great damp and wet conditions car, and yes, an excellent driver, and you have the results of FA and Ferrari. However, the fact that the car had some development problems during pre-season and, after that, the consistent downplaying of it by FA and Ferrari, created the image that the car was worse than it really was. All the top drivers...had great drives (and others too), but FA and Ferrari were the ones that talked the most. Heck, maybe if FA had shut up about racing Newey and his car supposedly being crap, he would have gained a bit more respect as a driver AND as a person. Playing the victim is getting tiresome and the Samurai thing is ridiculous. The problem with this guy is he's starting to believe the hype and there's nothing worse than that. Hope his attitude improves in 2013.

+ 1

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 18 December 2012 - 21:37.

[prty]

I didn´t talk at any point about the current Ferrari situation, have a proper read. Alonso drove good cars, and bad cars, cars improving as season went on, and cars drifting backwards. And it goes for any era: his 2006 went from easily dominant early on to being consistently beaten on speed. Same for 2005. However, in 2008, his car went from rubbish to pretty good. He drove a piece of **** in 2009, but a great car in 2005. He´s just a passenger of team´s shape, like anyone else.

But hey, believe whatever makes you happy.

In 2006 got worse plainly because the mass damper was banned mid-season. In 2005 it was a case of McLaren solving their tyre problems thanks to Michelin tailor-made extra soft tyres. If you follow the progression 2003->2006 for Renault, the results speak for themselves. From 2007 onwards, tyres and engines were fixed, and testing is more and more non-existant, and even so, Ferrari for some reason wanted a driver that wasn't only about arriving and going fast.

But hey, believe whatever makes you happy.

Edited by prty, 18 December 2012 - 20:02.

[ZZei]

In 2006 got worse plainly because the mass damper was banned mid-season. In 2005 it was a case of McLaren solving their tyre problems thanks to Michelin tailor-made extra soft tyres. If you follow the progression 2003->2006 for Renault, the results speak for themselves. From 2007 onwards, tyres and engines were fixed, and testing is more and more non-existant, and even so, Ferrari for some reason wanted a driver that wasn't only about arriving and going fast.

But hey, believe whatever makes you happy.

All hail the great alonso!

[RayInTorontoCanada]

If you follow the progression 2003->2006 for Renault, the results speak for themselves. From 2007 onwards...

But hey, believe whatever makes you happy.

2004: Wasn't Nando getting beaten by Trulli - up until the point at the French Grand Prix where Trulli fell asleep and, then, immediately fell into Briatore's dog house and, basically, sacked?

We won't get into the conflict of interest issues with Briatore' being Nando's business manager but not being (allowed to be) Trulli's business manager.

Nevertheless, it was an instance of Nando getting beaten by a teammate.

2007: Let's not go there. But, in my opinion and the opinion of so many others, Nando was too chicken **** to take the young Hamilton on 'Mano-A-Mano' and decided to be Number 1 with Briatore again instead!

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 18 December 2012 - 21:46.

[prty]

2004: Wasn't Nando getting beaten by Trulli - up until the point at the French Grand Prix where Trulli fell asleep and, then, immediately fell into Briatore's dog house and, basically, sacked?

We won't get into the conflict of interest issues with Briatore' being Nando's business manager but not being (allowed to be) Trulli's business manager.

Nevertheless, it was an instance of Nando getting beaten by a teammate.

2007: Let's not go there. But, in my opinion and the opinion of so many others, Nando was too chicken **** to take the young Hamilton on 'Mano-A-Mano' and decided to be Number 1 with Briatore again instead!

I don't know what your post has to do with mine.