89 replies to this topic

[Ross Stonefeld]

I think it's always been like this, but in the past the amounts were lower so you could find a wealthy patron or a small sponsor or whatever. And sponsorship itself was easier to get because it was less sophisticated.

[DanardiF1]

Whilst still not convinced that he's good enough for a long career in F1, he has improved massively in a very short space of time, which suggests that he's gaining maturity and making good of his potential as he's getting older and more experienced.

Gutierrez is coming to Sauber with a 'star of the future' reputation, but wasn't much better (though he should've been) than Chilton last year in GP2.

The Brit I'd like to see in F1 next however is Calado... and he could get there on talent alone.

[rhukkas]

I think it's always been like this, but in the past the amounts were lower so you could find a wealthy patron or a small sponsor or whatever. And sponsorship itself was easier to get because it was less sophisticated.

Also, it's very hard to find sponsorship now. Really motorsports offer very little in return of exposure and when you get it what is that exposure? Your logo on a vehicle that emits **** loads of dirty exhaust gases.

Thing is, if F1 is to retain it's mass spectator appeal there has to be some level of credibility with regard to the drivers. but right now, talent is being drained out of the sport age 12 where a season in top-level karting is upwards of £200k. With no real sponsors out there, only daddy's money is getting drivers through bar maybe the RSF.

I see a very large downward trend for motorsport's credibility and popularity if this sorta thing continues.

Edited by rhukkas, 19 December 2012 - 01:41.

[Ross Stonefeld]

The thing is, that 'scandal' has always been a part of it and seemingly met with a giant shrug of the shoulders by the fanbase. I do wonder how F1 is as big as it is TV wise given the appalling credibility issues around driver advancement. Which is even worse in other series, arguably. Although something like Indycar doesn't have the reputation to live up to.

But even if the fans are 'accepting' of it, they'd no sooner watch Polo so I wonder why racing manages to squeak through uncontroversially.

[Jimisgod]

Give the guy a chance, it's not like they bought him a top drive to waste *cough Grosjean cough*

The 80s was littered with wealthy guys who came and did moderately well. Weren't de Angelis and Nanninni from families with buckets of cash, but both won on merit.

[V8 Fireworks]

how surprising. does this need a thread?

Even former F1 race drivers like Kobyashi and some feeder drivers have their own threads !!

Bit harsh to not grant a current, contracted f1 race driver one of their own !

Best of luck to Chilton

It is quite a miracle that moderately talented (i.e. not future alonso/hamilton/vettel) British drivers with no budget like Wilson and Davidson ever had drives in hindsight. These other tail ender pay drivers are just in, and straight out when a higher bidder comes along.. even though they brought the big cash. Quite remarkable indeed.

[V8 Fireworks]

Really motorsports offer very little in return of exposure and when you get it what is that exposure? Your logo on a vehicle that emits **** loads of dirty exhaust gases.

Vettel grinning in Red Bull overall and cap on the sports section of 2000 newspapers worldwide ... anywhere and everywhere from Singapore to New Dehli to Christchurch to Stockholm ... is not worth the exposure?

You gotta win (if you lose like Mercedes Petronas or Honda or Toyota or BMW you look like a goose and do more harm than good) but if you do, then it is very worth it IMO.

[V8 Fireworks]

Of course you can't blame Max, but the sport is killing so much talent it's unbelievable.

How do you explain that sometimes drivers signed on talent (e.g., Trulli, Heidfeld, di Resta, Kobayashi etc) have to be dropped as they are not sufficiently impressive though! What is this criterion of talent? The team must need somebody to pay the bills after all.

A team like Mercedes brings back Schumi on talent, indeed have two drivers on talent, and get beat up regularly by lowly privateer teams ... in reality saving $10m on wages and pocketing $25m from Pastor's sponsors .. would that not have been more sensible?

The driver is just the nut behind the wheel employed to do the job after all. An F1 team does not care how or by whom the job is done. No fan thinks it is a pure sport and they all know that better formula car drivers who never sat in F1 could exist, just as they ackowledge many mediocre drivers have sat in F1s like HRT's friday tester. Fans also know and have seen that drivers can be fired for reasons not relating to ability to acheive lap times.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 19 December 2012 - 08:58.

[Bloggsworth]

Didn't read F1racing Mag during 03/04? Matt Bishop even mentioned during one article they were unashamedly hyping him up because he was British. That magazine always had a bias towards certain drivers, good or bad, and Davidson was in the strongly support category.

Hardly think F1 Mag qualifies as "The British Press" - What's its circulation? 20,000? 40,000 a month? "The British Press" shifts something like 10,000,000 newspapers a day. I suppose that the UK is unique, that no other country's press promotes its own nationals in motor-racing or any other sport...

[Jackman]

So what is F1 Mag then, if not British press? French? Chilean? Ghanian?

[billm99uk]

The thing is, that 'scandal' has always been a part of it and seemingly met with a giant shrug of the shoulders by the fanbase. I do wonder how F1 is as big as it is TV wise given the appalling credibility issues around driver advancement. Which is even worse in other series, arguably. Although something like Indycar doesn't have the reputation to live up to.

He's nothing special, but he IS better than Milka Duno

[noikeee]

Vettel grinning in Red Bull overall and cap on the sports section of 2000 newspapers worldwide ... anywhere and everywhere from Singapore to New Dehli to Christchurch to Stockholm ... is not worth the exposure?

You gotta win (if you lose like Mercedes Petronas or Honda or Toyota or BMW you look like a goose and do more harm than good) but if you do, then it is very worth it IMO.

In F1 it's worth it. Even if you lose you get loads of exposure, just today I was listening to Joe Saward in a podcast and he was rightly talking about the huge exposure ING got from sponsoring those ugly slow Renaults... nobody had heard of ING before. That cost them a ridiculous amount of money - not to mention all the billboards around the tracks - but certainly put them on the map.

Now sponsoring drivers through the lower ranks... I very highly doubt the value in that. Even GP2 has very very low exposure compared to F1. Yet you'll still have to pay a criminal amount to get your company name on the car. That's GP2, broadcasted by most F1 TV stations, now imagine sponsoring some midfield driver in British F3 or something, hoping he comes good one day... completely worthless IMO.

[rhukkas]

Vettel grinning in Red Bull overall and cap on the sports section of 2000 newspapers worldwide ... anywhere and everywhere from Singapore to New Dehli to Christchurch to Stockholm ... is not worth the exposure?

You gotta win (if you lose like Mercedes Petronas or Honda or Toyota or BMW you look like a goose and do more harm than good) but if you do, then it is very worth it IMO.

F1 isn't 'normal' motorsport. The exposure that offers is way beyond everything else.

[KateLM]

Not surprised at the paydriver backlash.

Max has a decent GP2 record comparable to a few other guys who have got to F1, (Kamui, Custard, Pic, Nakajima) so i don't think he's out of place. Sure, there's a few other drivers who probably deserve to be there more than him but he's not a bad driver who has no place in F1. Time will tell how he does but i don't expect him to challenge Timo, Max is still only 21 so has plenty of room to grow but i'll be surprised if he lasts any longer than any of Marussia/Virgins other number 2 drivers.

I hope he does well though, although being virtually 6ft tall is a bit of a disadvantage but that hasn't stopped Webber & Di Resta (both over 6ft!) doing a good job.

Is he that tall? For some reason I mentally had him as fairly short!

I've seen the Kobayashi comparison a few times, but no one mentions their pre-GP2 records - Kamui's is a fair bit more impressive, which suggests his problem was GP2-specific for whatever reason.

As for Chilton...well, there have been far worse. He's no Ricardo Teixeira - his race craft is rather questionable but he's not slow at all. And if Marussia need his sponsorship cash to stay afloat then I can't argue with that, better to keep the team on the grid and have Glock rather than no paydrivers and no team at all. But at the same time, I can't pretend that I think Max would ever get a shot for any other reason.

[ensign14]

So what is F1 Mag then, if not British press? French? Chilean? Ghanian?

An extremely small part of the British press. Bit like saying the San Marino Examiner is the European press.

[Jackman]

Only if the San Marino Examiner was an acknowledged leader of said European press, and had a string of regional versions of it across the globe.

[Brandz07]

What, like the chance you're giving Valsecchi?

The threads about Chilton and not Valsecchi, I'm not saying Davide hasn't got a chance. I'm just saying if we're giving Davide a chance, then why not Max?

Edited by Brandz07, 19 December 2012 - 14:05.

[Guizotia]

Chilton.

Chilton who?

[Jackman]

The threads about Chilton and not Valsecchi, I'm not saying Davide hasn't got a chance. I'm just saying if we're giving Davide a chance, then why not Max?

But you're clearly not giving Davide a chance - that was my point.

[ensign14]

Only if the San Marino Examiner was an acknowledged leader of said European press, and had a string of regional versions of it across the globe.

No, not really, as the acknowledged leader of said Europress is probably something like The Times or Le Monde or something. F1 Racing's readership is probably lower than the Morning Star's. Nobody cares if F1 Racing hypes up Johnny Hotshoe.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Yeah, it makes an impact. It's a very small paddock and they just repeat each other. Soon it's on the English-speaking broadcast and it's across the Commonwealth.

[Jackman]

No, not really, as the acknowledged leader of said Europress is probably something like The Times or Le Monde or something. F1 Racing's readership is probably lower than the Morning Star's. Nobody cares if F1 Racing hypes up Johnny Hotshoe.

You know full well that wasn't the point the original poster was making, and that F1R is a big component of the British F1 press.

[ensign14]

I thought the point was about the press in general. The world at large - including the casual fan - does not care whom F1 Racing hypes.

[Jackman]

The press in general, and the world at large, doesn't care at all about F1. Self evidently he was referring to the British press that covers racing.

[maverick69]

Bloody hell! Give the guy a chance!

Yes the drive is paid for - and his Dad has got a lot of dough........ but he won a couple of races last year in GP2 and finished 4th......... Singapore was pretty composed and impressive.

Put it this way - he's certainly no worse than a lot of drivers that have jumped into an F1 seat through money and influence.

[Jimisgod]

Bloody hell! Give the guy a chance!

Yes the drive is paid for - and his Dad has got a lot of dough........ but he won a couple of races last year in GP2 and finished 4th......... Singapore was pretty composed and impressive.

Put it this way - he's certainly no worse than a lot of drivers that have jumped into an F1 seat through money and influence.

He hasn't proven himself to be a danger on track like Grosjean.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Neither had Grosjean until Spa.

[bourbon]

In F1 it's worth it. Even if you lose you get loads of exposure, just today I was listening to Joe Saward in a podcast and he was rightly talking about the huge exposure ING got from sponsoring those ugly slow Renaults... nobody had heard of ING before. That cost them a ridiculous amount of money - not to mention all the billboards around the tracks - but certainly put them on the map.

Now sponsoring drivers through the lower ranks... I very highly doubt the value in that. Even GP2 has very very low exposure compared to F1. Yet you'll still have to pay a criminal amount to get your company name on the car. That's GP2, broadcasted by most F1 TV stations, now imagine sponsoring some midfield driver in British F3 or something, hoping he comes good one day... completely worthless IMO.

It is true. In the USA there is very very little exposure to F1 on the whole. But I recently bought a car and went into an infiniti dealer during the test runs - and there was a huge sign with Sebastian Vettel on it as Infiniti's ambassador and current F1 WDC. The salesman wasn't into motorracing, but he knew all about Seb's career and feats. The salesmen are little F1-Seb ambassadors - and I only went there in the first place because Seb was the ambassador and I thought to check it out. I ended up buying another model, but I was surprisingly impressed by the Infiniti and it was between that and the car I bought in the end. So it is like a reciprocal benefit for the team/sponsor.

I can only agree sponsorship in F1 is a great means of getting a brand noticed and out there. The more people see a brand name in lights, the more 'everyday' it seems which equals reliability, consistency, ease of access, safe, user friendly, etc., so that when you have to choose between two brands, you will go with the comfortable one - the one you recongize and are familiar with (at least that is the plan, lol).

On the other hand, I am not sure if the insurance company will be sponsoring the Marussia. But even if it is a straight money deal with dad, there is nothing wrong in that. The kid can produce in the lower formulas - maybe not a champ, but he's up there among the best. And final rankings is not always indicative of how one will do in formula 1. Perez & Vettel were not champs in their last outings before F1, and look at um. Maldonado is in on money, but he too proved that he is quite capable of being a race winner and fast driver - moreso as he's begun to let go of the little red mist problem.

Edited by bourbon, 20 December 2012 - 07:26.

[rhukkas]

Bloody hell! Give the guy a chance!

Yes the drive is paid for - and his Dad has got a lot of dough........ but he won a couple of races last year in GP2 and finished 4th......... Singapore was pretty composed and impressive.

Put it this way - he's certainly no worse than a lot of drivers that have jumped into an F1 seat through money and influence.

I prefer to give more drivers a 'chance' by not being out-spent by a factor of 10 in every area

[maverick69]

I prefer to give more drivers a 'chance' by not being out-spent by a factor of 10 in every area

So I take it you do not approve of Maldonado and Perez then?

[billm99uk]

He hasn't proven himself to be a danger on track like Grosjean.

He's not a "danger" to anyone, that's the problem. He's got to be about the worst overtaker I've ever seen at the GP2 level

[V8 Fireworks]

That's GP2, broadcasted by most F1 TV stations, now imagine sponsoring some midfield driver in British F3 or something, hoping he comes good one day... completely worthless IMO.

Evidently a reasonable number of drivers with limited money CAN do it. It's possible. Even if many never make it. Look at Will Power... Prepared his own 6 year formula ford in Australia. Caught the attention of wealthly backers, firstly for a local F3 drive and later to make it to Europe. Plus some support from compatriot Mark Webber, saw though some relatively average F3 and WSbR racing, nothing f1 worthy really though Stoddart kindly gave a one day f1 test for no cost. Caught the eye of wealthy Champcar team owner, showed an ability to drive. Lost drive as weathly owner (who also paid for Marcos Ambrose's nascar truck raing) loses interest. Filled in at Team Penske. Was very fast, and convinced the Captain to set up a full time 3rd car program!
Maybe these wealthy backers, sponsors, f1 team backers and even monetary support from f1 drivers -- maybe these things are out there for some. But certainly enough to make casual fans satisified, even if many fast race drivers are frustrated.

[Ross Stonefeld]

On the other hand, look at the debt Will Davison racked up and got saved from by V8s.

[Jackman]

And there really was little to choose between the two, other than Davidson started off from a wealthier family.

[V8 Fireworks]

I can only agree sponsorship in F1 is a great means of getting a brand noticed and out there. The more people see a brand name in lights, the more 'everyday' it seems which equals reliability, consistency, ease of access, safe, user friendly, etc., so that when you have to choose between two brands, you will go with the comfortable one - the one you recongize and are familiar with (at least that is the plan, lol).

So you go with one who do not design or build anything on the f1 car with their name on it!

To be honest, when comparing prices, cars in the USA seem so (incredibly) cheap... it does surprise me that everyone who can afford it doesn't just buy a BMW or a Porsche or if they are patriotic some supercharged America muscle car with 600 hp !

For instance it seems incredible that the Cayman starts at US$52,000 (recalling that Australian dollar is worth slightly more than US $) while in Australia a lowly Datsun ;) 370Z Fairlady is upwards of $60,000 with a Cayman another 40 grand more at least !



To your original point the psychology of car marketing is strange though. I gather that in the UK, Mazda is considered sporty but a bit cheaply made and noisy and therefore their sales volumes are very poor. Yet in Australia, Mazda is the top selling passenger car and best importer far far ahead of Honda*, even though people do notice that they are noiser than other brands of cars, somehow people don't mind as they are a trusted, common and reliable brand and certainly less bland than Toyota at least.

* ... surely that is unlike almost any other country, no wonder execs in Japan must look at these back-to-front numbers and think Honda Australia exectutives were dropped on their heads when being carried by dingoes as small children or something!

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 20 December 2012 - 12:30.

[V8 Fireworks]

On the other hand, look at the debt Will Davison racked up and got saved from by V8s.

Will Power was always more talented IMO. For instance it didn't matter that there was no competition, Power just got in that crummy old Reynard F3000 with a Buick boat anchor in the back and drove as hard as he can regardless.. the chap can drive.

Maybe a small difference in talent, becomes a big difference in results at top open wheel levels? Hence the great risk when backing a seemingly talented karter, and why the stories of aces who missed opportunies need to be moderated.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 20 December 2012 - 12:39.

[V8 Fireworks]

I prefer to give more drivers a 'chance' by not being out-spent by a factor of 10 in every area

Ricciardio and Vergne have got their drives without spending a cent, what more do you want - every driver on the grid to be chosen this way? , surely not every F1 team can have a money printing machine behind them like the energy drink business, the true privateers will always need to be more careful and balance speed and money.

[noikeee]

Ricciardio and Vergne have got their drives without spending a cent, what more do you want - every driver on the grid to be chosen this way? , surely not every F1 team can have a money printing machine behind them like the energy drink business, the true privateers will always need to be more careful and balance speed and money.

I think nobody's having a go at Marussia, nor any other privateer, for picking an average driver with great money over slightly better drivers with no money. That's only sensible from their point of view, and they even already have a paid guy on merit on the other seat.

However we can all understandably be also frustrated at the way things are going, and the amount of cash people now have to bring to buy a seat - the higher this fee is, what hope would a good driver with no money and no big team support (like Red Bull) have?

[Jim Thurman]

The thing is, that 'scandal' has always been a part of it and seemingly met with a giant shrug of the shoulders by the fanbase. I do wonder how F1 is as big as it is TV wise given the appalling credibility issues around driver advancement. Which is even worse in other series, arguably. Although something like Indycar doesn't have the reputation to live up to.

But even if the fans are 'accepting' of it, they'd no sooner watch Polo so I wonder why racing manages to squeak through uncontroversially.

Excellent post Ross Ride buyers and sons of wealthy families have been involved with racing from it's beginnings, if anything, it was worse in Europe than the United States, though it went on in the U.S. as well.

I don't know how accepting "fans" were, at least if you go by the folks who stirred that pot when they didn't get their meal tickets spectacular talents to CART. A shitstorm ensued, voila! IRL. The real irony was their use of shouts and rants on "ride buyers" to further their own cause and place their own drivers.

TV doesn't care. They're used to that sort of advancement (and since the above was propogated by TV folks) And there's no such thing as a muckraking motorsport press, at least in the states.

[V8 Fireworks]

To your original point the psychology of car marketing is strange though. I gather that in the UK, Mazda is considered sporty but a bit cheaply made and noisy and therefore their sales volumes are very poor. Yet in Australia, Mazda is the top selling passenger car and best importer far far ahead of Honda*, even though people do notice that they are noiser than other brands of cars, somehow people don't mind as they are a trusted, common and reliable brand and certainly less bland than Toyota at least.

* ... surely that is unlike almost any other country, no wonder execs in Japan must look at these back-to-front numbers and think Honda Australia exectutives were dropped on their heads when being carried by dingoes as small children or something!

Here's another one.

In Australia, GM has only just decided to introduce a second brand as traditionally there was the one brand Holden with Opel or Vauxhall aligned product ( i don't know if Buick product was the same as opel 10 years ago ), but Holden has now been changed to Chevrolet aligned product.

The marketing platform "Opel : German engineering excellence"

But who are the cars made by? Vauxhall UK !!
Who are the cars imported and sold by? Holden Australia !!

They could have just as easily introduced the Vauxhall brand or the Buick brand instead!

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 23 December 2012 - 15:29.