111 replies to this topic

[Fontainebleau]

I have a pretty good idea about Turrini, and I know he's a Kimi fan, but he's not an Alonso hater. He's certainly an...interesting guy, but for all his faults, he's pretty close to Ferrari. Besides, it's not like he's the only one thinking that.

I disagree with your opinion when it comes to his feelings towards Alonso: one only has to read his imaginary interviews with the guy and the words that he fictionally puts in his mouth to come to that conclussion.

As for him being pretty close to Ferrari, that is indeed what he claims, but I haven't seen any other source stating such a thing. It would certainy be very interesting if you have any, and if so please do share it, because obviously it would shed some light on his knowledge of such matters. And also, regarding to the last sentence of your post, it would be interesting to know who else is thinking that and what basis they do have for such an statement.

Edit: again, when I speak of fictional interviews it is because Turrini himself states that they are product of his imagination, not because I am dismissing everything he writes as imaginary. It is worth noting, for those who do not know the guy, that we are referring to a blog he writes and which as such reflects his opinions, not to articles and interviews published in newspapers as factual.

Edited by Fontainebleau, 10 January 2013 - 14:05.

[schubacca]

So in 1991 Prost was dropped from Ferrari for complaining etc about the car. We all know that Alonso continuously says the car isn't good enough, but Ferrari are agreeing with him, rather than dropping him or shutting him up. What are everyone's thoughts? Why did they do it once but not again?

note I am not against Alonso in anyway, I'm just curious as I remember reading about Prost way back when and it seems like a similar situation.

The Ferrari that Prost experienced is different that the one that FA is in now.

That said, I am partial to the Schumacher school of team building. Don't criticize the team publicly, and whatever you do behind closed doors.....

FA deserves a better car, as did Prost.... That is for sure.

[Seanspeed]

I'm saying the Ferrari was a good enough car in both 2010 and 2012 to win the WDC for Alonso. In 2012 Massa proved that down the stretch. Unfortunately for Alonso, under the pressure of a WDC he failed to perform at even Massa's level.

Are you a parrot? I wrote up a whole reply in response to exactly this, but if you're just going to repeat yourself instead of responding to anything I said, I guess this discussion is over.

If you have a car which can regularly gain places at the start, you maybe don't need a car which qualifies very well.

I don't know what kind of launch control Ferrari have, but it certainly seems to work.

Its more than just qualifying. When was the last time Ferrari dominated a race? And I mean 'dominate' as in, "Ok, they are clearly quickest out there". Probably Hockenheim 2010. Before that? 2008 again. This general lack of competitiveness is where Ferrari's problems lie. They clearly have a driver capable of winning championships, but he cant do it if the car is often only 3rd best out on track. He cant have 2010/2012-like seasons all the time and hope the pieces just fall together for him in the end. Ferrari need to take control themselves and build a faster car. Easier said than done, but until they do that, pointing at the driver is ridiculous, whether you're Ferrari themselves or just a fan.

Ferrari seem fully behind Alonso right now and thats exactly what they should do. Alonso remains committed as well, and even Massa, who many thinks gets 2nd-class treatment within the team, is also supported way more than a lot of people want to give Ferrari credit for. Talk of some schism sounds like sensationalist garbage.

[TigersWood]

When some of you say that Massa was better in the final races, ir seems to me that he made 4 poles and was leading all the races and had to brake so that Alonso could unlap himself and overtake him.

Am i right?

Prost's comments are a bit harsh; Alonso's comments come from the common sense.

Its more than just qualifying. When was the last time Ferrari dominated a race? And I mean 'dominate' as in, "Ok, they are clearly quickest out there". Probably Hockenheim 2010. Before that? 2008 again. This general lack of competitiveness is where Ferrari's problems lie.

I have been saying this for three years. I think it's time Alonso has a car that allows him to dominate as he deserves, not merely start 6th and gain places in dangerous moves, just to see other driver make 4 poles and 4 wins in a row.

[LiJu914]

[Paraphrasing:]


- After i visited the engine factory, i wasn´t surprised anymore that Ferrari had so many DNFs last year. It reminded me of the private garage of a old friend from the days in karting.

- Everything, that has a corner, is bad for our car.

- We´re simply not able to get pole. I got the maximum out of the car, but it´s not quick enough. The engine is fine, but we lack aerodynamic performance.

....

Now guess the author. (Hint: It´s not Alonso)

[Buttoneer]

OK, so the basic premise of the thread is that Prost was critical of Ferrari and got the sack as a reward, but that Alonso has also been critical of the team, but is still valued.

I think there's three points which have not been proven here;

1. That the perceived 'offence' by Prost is the only reason he was given the boot.
2. That the 'offence' by Alonso is as great as, or equivalent to, that caused by Prost
3. That in either case, the criticism was unfair.

The OP, and those who have posted in support of the sentiment, have not proven their case, IMO. Alonso gave reasonably truthful statements about the performance to the press which were in line with what we could see on the circuit and what we hear from drivers all the time. None of his comments were particularly harsh. Until the later stages of the season Alonso comprehensively outperformed Massa and it is not apparent to me at least that he could have done better with the car.

The comments of Pat Fry, which Alonso seems to have taken great exception to, seemed reasonable too if you take them as statements of where the performance was lost (in qualifying, instead of the race) rather than as criticisms of Alonso so even this feels a lot like a storm in a machiato cup.

Can anyone make a solid and coherent case for the prosecution?

[Winter98]

If you have a car which can regularly gain places at the start, you maybe don't need a car which qualifies very well.

I don't know what kind of launch control Ferrari have, but it certainly seems to work.

Good point.

[fabr68]

It seems this thread gets constantly derailed by some who insist on downplaying Alonso's 2012 driving performance. Maybe it is time for a separate thread? Or move this to the 2012 Autosport driver rating thread?

[KnucklesAgain]

Good point.

Not at all. Spa, Suzuka.

[RealRacing]

Prost's comments were much harsher. Albeit justified (the 2012 car was a very good car, the 1991 car was effectively crap), they were just too much for a team that used to run on ego even more than today. So everything was more extreme in the 1991 case: the car was much worse, Ferrari was more radical in their ways and Prost did not give a s..t because he was a 3xWDC, he was sick of F1 anyway and he practically had the best seat in F1 lined up.

Alonso's comments were comparatively mellow and Ferrari has changed a lot (Enzo would probably be spinning in his grave if he heard how Ferrari downplayed their car during all last season). Add to this that Alonso, his lack of championships for Ferrari notwithstanding, has positive points at Ferrari (he has had good rapport with the team and has been adulating them since the beginning) and that Ferrari has no real alternatives, and one can see why Ferrari have been relatively forgiving with FA so far.

I suspect, however, that Ferrari ultimately bows to the tifosi, as irrational as they may be. The moment that FA loses their support for whatever reason, Ferrari will look for a replacement. It may be the 21st century, but the prancing horse can only look bad for so long...

[garoidb]

Prost's comments were much harsher. Albeit justified (the 2012 car was a very good car, the 1991 car was effectively crap), they were just too much for a team that used to run on ego even more than today. So everything was more extreme in the 1991 case: the car was much worse, Ferrari was more radical in their ways and Prost did not give a s..t because he was a 3xWDC, he was sick of F1 anyway and he practically had the best seat in F1 lined up.

Exactly, and there was no point in spending 1992 at Ferrari. Prost lost nothing.

[RealRacing]

Exactly, and there was no point in spending 1992 at Ferrari. Prost lost nothing.

If you think about it, Prost had one of the best times at Ferrari than anyone at that time: they managed (with the help of Prost and the engineer he brought from McLAren), to produce a car capable of fighting for the 1990 championship, and he did not spend lots of years in oblivion there a-la Berger and Alesi.