642 replies to this topic

[bourbon]

A good one from Marilene - that the Doctor will comment again in the summer break....

So Seb engages Fernando during the season on the track, Dr.Marko engages Fernando in the off-season away from the track. Nice way of sharing work.

Then there is of course Briatore, who nobody engages at all...but that never stops him from 'sharing work' with Alonso.

[Kingshark]

I have a feeling Marko kind of enjoys getting under Alonso's skin, certainly when Vettel keeps bringing home the trophies. I reckon we should get a spicy quote from him every few races.

He's only done it once, to try to counter everything Alonso/Hamilton have said about each other and Vettel over the past year and a half. If anything, he is bitter about their comments and how Lew/Fred don't believe in Vettel being the best thing since sliced bread.

Then again, why would a double world champion, twice a runner-up, and 30 time GP winner care about the comments from a man with a racing record as pathetic as Helmut Marko?

[mattferg]

He's only done it once, to try to counter everything Alonso/Hamilton have said about each other and Vettel over the past year and a half. If anything, he is bitter about their comments and how Lew/Fred don't believe in Vettel being the best thing since sliced bread.

Then again, why would a double world champion, twice a runner-up, and 30 time GP winner care about the comments from a man with a racing record as pathetic as Helmut Marko?

I personally think Marko, like most of the sensible racing community, is just a bit confused as to why two drivers, who are meant to be in top, historic teams, who have been beaten 3 years in a row, keep claiming they're amazing and the other drivers on the grid aren't as good.

Sounds a bit sad really? I feel bad for Alonso and Hamilton that their egos are that fragile.

[BenettonB192]

Then again, why would a double world champion, twice a runner-up, and 30 time GP winner care about the comments from a man with a racing record as pathetic as Helmut Marko?

That comment is a bit harsh. Marko is a Le Mans winner and his F1 career was ended prematurely by loosing an eye in during the 1972 French Grand Prix.

[apoka]

That comment is a bit harsh. Marko is a Le Mans winner and his F1 career was ended prematurely by loosing an eye in during the 1972 French Grand Prix.

That is one point and the other is that the comment does not make sense in itself. You do not need to have 30 GP wins to have an opinion on Alonso - otherwise only 3 living people would be allowed to comment.

[Sakae]

Then there is of course Briatore, who nobody engages at all...but that never stops him from 'sharing work' with Alonso.

...and no one talks much about a Trojean horse Briatore owns in RBR stable.

[mnmracer]

He's only done it once, to try to counter everything Alonso/Hamilton have said about each other and Vettel over the past year and a half. If anything, he is bitter about their comments and how Lew/Fred don't believe in Vettel being the best thing since sliced bread.

You know damn well that it's not about Vettel being the best thing since sliced bread. You and your peers only use that phrasing because you have no other argument to counter what most of us are actually saying: "we consider Vettel on the same level, or maybe just above that, of Hamilton and Alonso".

Then again, why would a double world champion, twice a runner-up, and 30 time GP winner care about the comments from a man with a racing record as pathetic as Helmut Marko?

By that reasoning, he should care even less about being praised by team-bosses/members who have even less of a racing record.
Not much of an argument, now is that?

[aditya-now]

Regarding team mate battles, I am curious if this year Dr. Marko will let it even come to this - they may disadvantage Mark from the beginning (in the little things; in the set-up of the 2013 car) but with a weak opposition (2nd drivers in other top teams may not deliver as many points, Merc may still not be up to the task) that could still earn them the WCC.

[aditya-now]

...and no one talks much about a Trojean horse Briatore owns in RBR stable.

Concering the Trojan horse Webber I wonder then why Marko has signed him again?

First sign someone for another year and then give him the trashing via the media. Absurd in a way.

[LiJu914]

Regarding team mate battles, I am curious if this year Dr. Marko will let it even come to this - they may disadvantage Mark from the beginning (in the little things; in the set-up of the 2013 car) but with a weak opposition (2nd drivers in other top teams may not deliver as many points, Merc may still not be up to the task) that could still earn them the WCC.

And how will he do that? Order Mark how to set up his car?

[aditya-now]

And how will he do that? Order Mark how to set up his car?

How? Make sure that the car and its subsequent updates suits Seb and does not suit Mark - so Mark can never find a set up to his liking. We have seen how sensitive even Seb is to a principal set-up that is not to his liking - Seb needs a car tailor-made to his needs so he can deliver.

[apoka]

How? Make sure that the car and its subsequent updates suits Seb and does not suit Mark - so Mark can never find a set up to his liking. We have seen how sensitive even Seb is to a principal set-up that is not to his liking - Seb needs a car tailor-made to his needs so he can deliver.

2012 has shown that they probably won't do it. Early in the year, the RB8 suited Webber more than Vettel (he even went back to an earlier spec and did quite a lot of experiments). They then decided to go for the development path, which suited Webber better, since it was faster. (By the way, Webber himself does not really think that the updates favoured Vettel: http://en.espnf1.com...tory/97470.html .) I think the team cares most about making a fast car, especially early in the season.

[LiJu914]

How? Make sure that the car and its subsequent updates suits Seb and does not suit Mark - so Mark can never find a set up to his liking. We have seen how sensitive even Seb is to a principal set-up that is not to his liking - Seb needs a car tailor-made to his needs so he can deliver.

So Marko will dictate Newey&Co. how to design a car? Doesn´t sound very realistic to me...

And talking about that point: What we actually witnessed last year, was, that the engineers do NOT design a car inch perfect for a style of one driver, but instead go for the best numbers. Even when it was clear, that Vettel didn´t like the Mk.1-exhaust, they told him after China, that they will go on with this solution as it had more potential.

Edit:
And regarding this so often repated story about the Vettel vs. Webber battle in 2012:
The main factor that changed in the later stages of the season was, that the car got better in general - that´s it.
The hierarchy between SV and MW wasn´t really that different between the beginning and the end of the season.
Before the car became dominant for a longer period of time (which started at Suzuka) Vettel was ahead or faster:
- in qualifying 8 out of 14 times
- in races 11 out of 14 times

Afterwards he was ahead or faster:
- in qualifying 3 out of 6 times
- in races 6 out of 6 times

So where is the big difference?
In qualifying there isn´t any. And even in the races the difference is very little considering that two out of the three races, in which Webber was faster, were Silverstone and Monaco - two circuits at which Mark was always very strong compared to Seb.

Edited by LiJu914, 28 January 2013 - 12:48.

[mnmracer]

It always baffles me why people act like Vettel is (only) faster than Webber because of this elaborate scheme, while from their very first race together, Vettel had the upperhand (Vettel Q3rd, Webber Q10th | Vettel fighting for 2nd in the race, Webber had no pace even considering turn 1). Vettel outqualified Webber 15:2 in 2009. Seriously, what are we talking about?

[fastwriter]

Please don't feed the trolls. That killed nearly half the threads in this forum lately. Would be bad, if autosport is forced to shut down this forum, because there are only idiots left.

[seahawk]

How? Make sure that the car and its subsequent updates suits Seb and does not suit Mark - so Mark can never find a set up to his liking. We have seen how sensitive even Seb is to a principal set-up that is not to his liking - Seb needs a car tailor-made to his needs so he can deliver.

So if the car suits Webber better it is fair, but when the car suits Vettel better it is unfair?

[mnmracer]

We have seen how sensitive even Seb is to a principal set-up that is not to his liking - Seb needs a car tailor-made to his needs so he can deliver.

Not sure what races you've seen, but he delivered in 8 out of 11 races that the car was not to his liking.
The other 3 he finished within seconds of Mark.

Edited by mnmracer, 28 January 2013 - 13:31.

[aditya-now]

Please don't feed the trolls. That killed nearly half the threads in this forum lately. Would be bad, if autosport is forced to shut down this forum, because there are only idiots left.

Not a very constructive statement - you can always use the "Ignore" function or report to the mods, if you find a post irregular.

It is a valid point - that Mark can extract more from the car when it is to his liking, and Seb can extract more from the car when it is to his liking. Thus RBR has a certain control over which driver they favour.

The other point I was making somehow went unnoticed - that it is quite surprising they sign Mark Webber, Briatore's trojan horse, for another year and then Dr.Marko goes bashing him in the Red Bulletin. Something you would rather not expect from your own team.....

[aditya-now]

2012 has shown that they probably won't do it. Early in the year, the RB8 suited Webber more than Vettel (he even went back to an earlier spec and did quite a lot of experiments). They then decided to go for the development path, which suited Webber better, since it was faster. (By the way, Webber himself does not really think that the updates favoured Vettel: http://en.espnf1.com...tory/97470.html .) I think the team cares most about making a fast car, especially early in the season.

Which is what would make sense for every team. Thanks for the link that Mark thought the updates did not favour Vettel in particular.

[zawisza]

It always baffles me why people act like Vettel is (only) faster than Webber because of this elaborate scheme, while from their very first race together, Vettel had the upperhand (Vettel Q3rd, Webber Q10th | Vettel fighting for 2nd in the race, Webber had no pace even considering turn 1). Vettel outqualified Webber 15:2 in 2009. Seriously, what are we talking about?

About Mark's broken leg ? Good enough reason ? Yes, Vettel is faster, no doubt IMO, but your 2009 statistics proof is ... ehm...

[mnmracer]

About Mark's broken leg ? Good enough reason ? Yes, Vettel is faster, no doubt IMO, but your 2009 statistics proof is ... ehm...

Subsequent years have shown the exact same pattern.
The only exception was qualifying this year, but in the races it was the very same as every other year.

[zawisza]

Subsequent years have shown the exact same pattern.
The only exception was qualifying this year, but in the races it was the very same as every other year.

Except for 2010 IMO.

[aditya-now]

Except for 2010 IMO.

Exactly, in 2010 Mark was quite mighty for a # 2 driver and Dr.Marko has looked after it that that did not happen again.

[MarileneRiddle]

A good one from Marilene - that the Doctor will comment again in the summer break....

So Seb engages Fernando during the season on the track, Dr.Marko engages Fernando in the off-season away from the track. Nice way of sharing work.

Thank you. I rather think Dr. Marko's job is precisely that, to shoulder all the politics that is not the drivers' or the designers' or the team principal's job. In most other teams, the team principal ends up having to work the politics because they have no other spokesperson, so I think the one person Dr. Marko helps the most is actually Christian Horner. Which would make sense, since Red Bull has enough resources to make sure Horner does not need to take on multiple jobs. Dr. Marko may not help Webber at all, but it is also because Webber was never part of the programme that Dr. Marko is in charge of. I think many see it as Dr. Marko supporting Sebastian versus Webber, when really it is Dr. Marko versus Webber (with Sebastian being the excuse whenever Dr. Marko needs a comparison). The doctor just sees that whoever is not part of his programme cannot be as good as whoever is part of his programme, which is an understandable if incorrectly biased view.

Then there is of course Briatore, who nobody engages at all...but that never stops him from 'sharing work' with Alonso.

Briatore is rather interesting because (other than the fact that he is no longer actively in F1) he could have been Dr. Marko's true opposite. Here is a guy who produced a double world champion in his 'new' team to challenge Ferrari and McLaren. The difference is that his driver chose to leave him in that critical 3rd year, rather than weather through the storm. Sure Alonso probably wouldn't have done as well in Renault in 2007 as compared to what he did in McLaren, but it must have hurt Briatore nonetheless. Yet Briatore still takes Alonso back and is actively in Alonso's side. That may be because Briatore has developed a genuine liking for Alonso and the way the Spaniard races, or Briatore holds true to the idea that he was right in grooming Alonso all along, and may yet return to F1 from other young drivers picking Briatore as a manager. Notice that, despite the crash-gate scandal, some of Briatore's drivers still hold true to his management. Alonso's good performance may partially account for that.

So I believe Briatore engaging in talk despite not being asked is really much like what Dr. Marko is doing - defending his own ability to groom young drivers. Substitute any other driver's name in and it wouldn't matter, because it is just the fact that they groomed the driver which makes them defend the drivers.

...and no one talks much about a Trojean horse Briatore owns in RBR stable.

Sure Webber maybe closer to Briatore and Alonso rather than anyone in Red Bull. But that would only drive him to want to out-perform Sebastian that much more, which would in turn bring in the points. I trust in Webber's integrity enough to not do anything to sabotage Sebastian. And if Webber manages to out-perform Sebastian it would be all the better for the team because, with Sebastian's high standards, it would mean yet another WDC and WCC trophy anyway. Sure Dr. Marko will be upset (his programme has been beaten), but the rest of Red Bull wouldn't care. Dietrich Mateschitz wouldn't care - and that is all that matters.

Not a very constructive statement - you can always use the "Ignore" function or report to the mods, if you find a post irregular.

Agreed. Other than someone already taken off, most comments on this thread have proven to be rather constructive. Agreeing to disagree on certain points is better than refusing to discuss at all.

[mnmracer]

Except for 2010 IMO.

Exactly, in 2010 Mark was quite mighty for a # 2 driver and Dr.Marko has looked after it that that did not happen again.

2010 was much like 2012: points clouded by technical malfunctions.
12:7 in qualifying pace
16:3 in race pace

[Skinnyguy]

Exactly, in 2010 Mark was quite mighty for a # 2 driver and Dr.Marko has looked after it that that did not happen again.

Yes, after 2010 he made sure Vettel´s car didn´t break and retire so often, and since then it hasn´t happened again.

Because poor reliability on Vettel´s side of the garage in 2010 was the only reason he managed to end a season close to him.

[MrPodium]

I personally think Marko, like most of the sensible racing community, is just a bit confused as to why two drivers, who are meant to be in top, historic teams, who have been beaten 3 years in a row, keep claiming they're amazing and the other drivers on the grid aren't as good.

Sounds a bit sad really? I feel bad for Alonso and Hamilton that their egos are that fragile.

It's not confusing at all. All you have to do is look up the cars which have propelled Vettel to his multiple WDC's, plus the various other accolades the said cars have won. It might help you and others in "the sensible racing community" realise why, and understand aspect of F1 better.

Or we can all kiss Vettel's arse in our state of confusion. :\

[Winter98]

How? Make sure that the car and its subsequent updates suits Seb and does not suit Mark - so Mark can never find a set up to his liking.

aditya, don't you think it's a bit farfetched suggesting RBR is spending time and resources making sure new parts don't suit Webber?

[MrPodium]

aditya, don't you think it's a bit farfetched suggesting RBR is spending time and resources making sure new parts don't suit Webber?

I agree, no team would do that. However, it's not inconcievable that updates to a car are tailored towards a cetain driver, in this case Vettel.

[Winter98]

I agree, no team would do that. However, it's not inconcievable that updates to a car are tailored towards a cetain driver, in this case Vettel.

It would make sense if you're fighting for the WCC and WDC.

[mnmracer]

I agree, no team would do that. However, it's not inconcievable that updates to a car are tailored towards a cetain driver, in this case Vettel.

But as we already established, this was not the case in 2012.

[mnmracer]

It's not confusing at all. All you have to do is look up the cars which have propelled Vettel to his multiple WDC's, plus the various other accolades the said cars have won. It might help you and others in "the sensible racing community" realise why, and understand aspect of F1 better.

Or we can all kiss Vettel's arse in our state of confusion. :\

You're right, let's kiss Alonso's arse instead. Poor little Alonso who was in this horrible Ferrari, yet somehow when the car started performing better and propelled Massa to the front, did not do the same for Alonso.
And let's not look at how many of those accolades those cars would have won without Vettel. At best, 1 WCC and 0 WDC.
Very sensible.

[MrPodium]

It would make sense if you're fighting for the WCC and WDC.

I agree to an extent. But let's play devils advocate. What if the car has evolved so much in the direction of one driver that he can compete for victory, and his teammate hates the car so much he's out of the points (McLaren, Canada 2012)? Exceptional drivers will drive around a car's shortcomings, other struggle. That's why we hear of Jenson Button complaining constantly about lack of balance, and I believe also the reason why Vettel looked not much more than ordinary until the RB8's back end was sorted from Singapore onwards.

[MrPodium]

You're right, let's kiss Alonso's arse instead. Poor little Alonso who was in this horrible Ferrari, yet somehow when the car started performing better and propelled Massa to the front, did not do the same for Alonso.
And let's not look at how many of those accolades those cars would have won without Vettel. At best, 1 WCC and 0 WDC.
Very sensible.

I must have hit a raw nerve. I'll leave it at that.

[boldhakka]

So you got it wrong again with "objective winners". The real winners sometimes don't win in the stats, but they win something more: universal respect and appreciation. Schumacher being a case in point, Alonso - and perhaps Vettel five years from now.

Racing drivers want to win races.

Politicians want to win universal respect and appreciation.

[MarileneRiddle]

I must have hit a raw nerve. I'll leave it at that.

Hey, we're all friends around here, no need to get personal.

I agree, no team would do that. However, it's not inconceivable that updates to a car are tailored towards a certain driver, in this case Vettel.

It is not inconceivable, but I don't think that was what Red Bull was doing in 2012. I think they made updates to the car that are tailored to a specific style of driving which would result in dominance much like 2011, and therefore it suited Sebastian more than Webber. The problem, from Webber's point of view, is how to convince Red Bull that the 2011 style development isn't the way to go. I rambled a lot more here, but the gist of the point I am trying to make is that in 2011, Red Bull had maximised their down force-based philosophy of making cars and achieved a domination that was almost overwhelming. Since they have found 'perfection' that year, they are always going to stick to that philosophy and work towards that type of car in any given other year. And unfortunately for Webber, that was always going to favour Sebastian more. As Winter98 has pointed out, Red Bull is fighting for the WDC and the WCC. Tailoring a car to a style not based on their philosophy was never going to be on the agenda. That is why Sebastian always seemed to benefit more, because developing the car towards a more stable rear (which benefits Sebastian) was always something Red Bull was going to do regardless of drivers. As opposed to developing a better start launch programme for Ferrari-like lightning starts (which benefits Webber), which Red Bull doesn't give priority to.

[mnmracer]

I must have hit a raw nerve. I'll leave it at that.

Touché sir, no way to rebute such a substantiated argument

[MarileneRiddle]

Racing drivers want to win races.

Politicians want to win universal respect and appreciation.

I think I need a "bow down to the king" emoticon for this occasion.

But frankly, I think Alonso wants the 3rd WDC far more than admiration. After he gets that number 3 trophy though, all bets are off.

[speednerd]

I agree, no team would do that. However, it's not inconcievable that updates to a car are tailored towards a cetain driver, in this case Vettel.

Even if we assume that what you are saying is true (and it's contentious at best), are you really saying that Ferrari updates are NOT geared towards Alonso?

[Winter98]

I agree to an extent. But let's play devils advocate. What if the car has evolved so much in the direction of one driver that he can compete for victory, and his teammate hates the car so much he's out of the points (McLaren, Canada 2012)? Exceptional drivers will drive around a car's shortcomings, other struggle. That's why we hear of Jenson Button complaining constantly about lack of balance, and I believe also the reason why Vettel looked not much more than ordinary until the RB8's back end was sorted from Singapore onwards.

Well, you can speculate anything you want.

But without the teams telemetry, a host of engineers to explain it all, and intimate knowledge of team strategies, that is all it is.

[Winter98]

double post

Edited by Winter98, 28 January 2013 - 16:11.

[MarileneRiddle]

I agree to an extent. But let's play devils advocate. What if the car has evolved so much in the direction of one driver that he can compete for victory, and his teammate hates the car so much he's out of the points (McLaren, Canada 2012)? Exceptional drivers will drive around a car's shortcomings, other struggle. That's why we hear of Jenson Button complaining constantly about lack of balance, and I believe also the reason why Vettel looked not much more than ordinary until the RB8's back end was sorted from Singapore onwards.

Perhaps, and yet, maybe that is their problem. Exceptional drivers can produce the rare race out of a midfield car, but the car remains of the same quality the next race. Intelligent drivers may not perform as well in a midfield car, but will note the shortcomings of a car and give precise feedback to make the midfield car a better car. It is the rare driver that combines both qualities that makes him a F1 legend (like Schumacher).

So my opinion is that Hamilton is an exceptional driver, and Button is an intelligent one. I used to classify Alonso as a mix of both, but ever since he joined Ferrari he has demonstrated more qualities of an exceptional driver rather than an intelligent one. And it is Sebastian who has so far managed to marry both qualities the best. But this is mainly my speculation with what little comments team members give. Until we have "the teams telemetry, a host of engineers to explain it all, and intimate knowledge of team strategies" we cannot really conclude any further. (Thanks Winter98 for the quote).

[D.M.N.]

I think its fairly obvious on-topic discussion exhausted here a long time ago. Thread closed.