86 replies to this topic

[HistoryFan]

Which are the oldest racing teams?

McLaren has the 50th birthday this year
ORECA the 40th birthday (as Coloni had last year)
Penske is a very old racing team in IndyCar

And of course there is Ferrari (since the 30s).

More?

[ensign14]

Peugeot can't be beaten...

[Jackmancer]

Homerus Chariot Racing Team - since 850 BC.

[SenorSjon]

Ferrari didn't excist in the 30's?

[HaydenFan]

Homerus Chariot Racing Team - since 850 BC.

Well now, they were out a few centuries due to funding issues when Rome fell. And they weren't the same since Ben Hur left as well.

[03011969]

Ferrari didn't excist in the 30's?

Ferrari was racing Alfa Romeos in the 1930s, but only started manufacturing his own cars in 1940.

[docronzo]

Mercedes has attended the first race in 1902 with the Simplex. Benz participated even earlier in the 1894 Paris-Rouen. In 1926 both were merged to form the Mercedes-Benz brand, as we know it today.

Edited by docronzo, 08 January 2013 - 16:48.

[HistoryFan]

I mean real race teams, not manufactures.

[Group B]

What exactly is your idea of 'real'?

[HistoryFan]

not manufactures

[Vitesse2]

The current incarnation of Scuderia Ferrari is certainly the oldest. It has also operated from the same location since its first race in 1947.

The previous Scuderia Ferrari was closed at the end of 1937, at which point Enzo himself became an employee of Alfa Corse. The terms of his departure from Alfa Corse in 1939 forbad the use of the name Scuderia Ferrari for four years, so when he built two cars in 1940 they were dubbed AAC 815. However, these cars were not entered under the name of the factory and both the original SF and AAC were based in Modena: AAC did not move to Maranello until 1943.

[HaydenFan]

Many teams that are running now, Joest, Williams, Sauber, Zakspeed, to name a few started in the late 70's, early 80's.

Ecurie Ecosse hadn't remained a team over the course of it's creation, but started in 1951 and has been revived by former members a few times in the past.

[BRG]

I think this should be about continuity. Yes, Peugeot and Mercedes were racing in the early 1900s, but was there a continuous racing team structure from then until now? The answer is clearly NO for those two.

Ferrari has been continuous since 1940 something. Can we better that? Maybe some outfit in the US?

[KWSN - DSM]

I think that Ferrari and McLaren must be the number 1 and 2 on the list of teams existing the longest continuously. I am aware that the ownership of McLaren have changed, however they continued as an ongoing concern, possibly with some changes in the way they were incorporated, but for the purpose of being the same team, I consider them 100% kosher.

Allowing for the legal incorporation changing I allow for McLaren, possible that Petty Racing (Enterprise?) is up there with Ferrari, but I believe they went bankrupt some time in early 2000ends and it was not a continuation of the team? Someone more in to NASCAR have to educate me.

Penske started late 1960ies.

I can not really come up with good suggestions for any other teams still existing for that long.

[Tombstone]

Ferrari has been continuous since 1940 something. Can we better that? Maybe some outfit in the US?

I have no history books on the marque, but perhaps Alfa Romeo?

Quite agree that continuity should be the deciding factor, barring the first and second world wars. Not sure whether Alfas in motor sport have always had factory backing though.

Ford could probably match any criteria that included Alfa too.

Edited by Tombstone, 08 January 2013 - 21:30.

[Group B]

I have no history books on the marque, but perhaps Alfa Romeo?

Quite agree that continuity should be the deciding factor, barring the first and second world wars. Not sure whether Alfas in motor sport have always had factory backing though.

Ford could probably match any criteria that included Alfa too.

The OP apparently wants to exclude manufacturers, so that rules out Ford, Alfa, and strictly, Ferrari.

[Tombstone]

The OP apparently wants to exclude manufacturers, so that rules out Ford, Alfa, and strictly, Ferrari.

Technically Henry Ford started motor racing (1901) before he formed the Ford Motor Company (1903).

However, only including teams would exclude Ferrari, and McLaren for that matter.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Even if you included manufacturers, what racing is Ford doing at the moment? Teams use Ford engines, but... ? And Alfa? They've had a few years not competing.

[Tombstone]

Even if you included manufacturers, what racing is Ford doing at the moment? Teams use Ford engines, but... ? And Alfa? They've had a few years not competing.

Rallying.

Edited by Tombstone, 08 January 2013 - 21:48.

[BRG]

Rallying.

Not really. The Ford WRC effort was outsourced to M-Sport (Malcolm Wilson's outfit) from 1998 with Ford merely providing funding and some technical support. And now they have withdrawn from that role as well. Their in-house work at Boreham, supporting various feeder rally series ended when Boreham closed in 2003.

[Tombstone]

Not really. The Ford WRC effort was outsourced to M-Sport (Malcolm Wilson's outfit) from 1998 with Ford merely providing funding and some technical support. And now they have withdrawn from that role as well. Their in-house work at Boreham, supporting various feeder rally series ended when Boreham closed in 2003.

I don't have tickets to the pedantry bus. One might argue that Subaru have never won a rally, using your logic.

As far as I'm concerned if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. Not a giraffe in a duck suit.

[sesku]

I feel like modern McLaren team is more like a continuation of Project Four Team than the old Mclaren team started by Bruce Mclaren.

Edited by sesku, 08 January 2013 - 22:08.

[Group B]

I don't have tickets to the pedantry bus. One might argue that Subaru have never won a rally, using your logic.

As far as I'm concerned if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. Not a giraffe in a duck suit.

BRG has a fair point though; some specialist outsourcing is one thing, but I'm not sure that handing a totally separate company a wad of cash and remit to build a race car that resembles one of your road cars is genuinely being a 'motor racing team'.

[Vitesse2]

The OP apparently wants to exclude manufacturers, so that rules out Ford, Alfa, and strictly, Ferrari.

My answer was specifically about Scuderia Ferrari the team, rather than Ferrari SpA the manufacturer. Although in practice the two run in parallel, by definition Ferrari SpA must slighty precede Scuderia Ferrari.

[Myrvold]

I don't have tickets to the pedantry bus. One might argue that Subaru have never won a rally, using your logic.

As far as I'm concerned if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. Not a giraffe in a duck suit.

Well, it is a Ford chassis. But Ford is 0.0% involved in the WRC.

[HaydenFan]

I think this should be about continuity. Yes, Peugeot and Mercedes were racing in the early 1900s, but was there a continuous racing team structure from then until now? The answer is clearly NO for those two.

Ferrari has been continuous since 1940 something. Can we better that? Maybe some outfit in the US?

A.J. Foyt Enterprises started in '65. Penske Racing started in IndyCar in '68, but I know Roger ran SCCA competitions in his own car before that. Dyson Racing started racing SCCA competition in '74.

You had some teams that have run for many years end in the last decade or so. Patrick Racing, Petty Enterprise (which like mentioned broke up in the late '90's and has morphed into a few different identities over the last few years), Forsythe/Team Player's, Bettenhausen Racing (later became Herdez Comp, Minardi, and HVM, but nothing remains of the old team) just to name a few.

[oetzi]

Lola had their 50th birthday a few years back. Not sure if they'd quite count, though.

Edited by oetzi, 09 January 2013 - 09:07.

[scheivlak]

Lola had their 50th birthday a few years back. Not sure if they'd quite count, though.

I think most of the time they were producing cars rather than running a team.

[JRizzle86]

Peugeot can't be beaten...

In a slightly different guise though.

[oetzi]

I think most of the time they were producing cars rather than running a team.

Yeah, but still thought they deserved a mention in amongst the edge cases and exceptions.

[aditya-now]

The current incarnation of Scuderia Ferrari is certainly the oldest. It has also operated from the same location since its first race in 1947.

The previous Scuderia Ferrari was closed at the end of 1937, at which point Enzo himself became an employee of Alfa Corse. The terms of his departure from Alfa Corse in 1939 forbad the use of the name Scuderia Ferrari for four years, so when he built two cars in 1940 they were dubbed AAC 815. However, these cars were not entered under the name of the factory and both the original SF and AAC were based in Modena: AAC did not move to Maranello until 1943.

Thanks for the concise information!

Concerning F1 only that means Ferrari is up and running for 67 years now. Then McLaren with 50 years - next up Williams with 37 years (as the first Frank Williams Racing Cars became Walter Wolf Racing, I understand. Otherwise Williams would be 45 this year, but by that way of counting Scuderia Ferrari would be already 84 in 2013). And then already Sauber with 20 years, obviously. Sauber Motorsport of course was an equipe in Group C since 1982 (31 years hence), before they transformed into an F1 team.

Used to be the time that Sauber was a new team, now they are the 4th oldest on the grid!

[HistoryFan]

Sauber celebrate their 40th birthday last year.
Oreca is 40 years old this year.

[flatlander48]

A.J. Foyt Enterprises started in '65. Penske Racing started in IndyCar in '68, but I know Roger ran SCCA competitions in his own car before that. Dyson Racing started racing SCCA competition in '74.

Roger himself competed from 1958 until 1965 when he retired. He first fielded cars in 1966 for the long distance races at Daytona and Sebring, so that makes them 46 years old. Mark Donohue came along shortly thereafter. Going from memory, Penske has fielded cars in Formula 5000, Trans-Am, Can-Am, ALMS, Grand-Am, Indy car in various guises, Formula 1, NASCAR Cup and Grand National, USRRC, and sports car endurance races. I don't know of anyone else who has competed in as many different disciplines.

Edited by flatlander48, 09 January 2013 - 16:11.

[Rob]

Wood Brothers Racing started in 1950 and is still in NASCAR today.

[HaydenFan]

Wood Brothers Racing started in 1950 and is still in NASCAR today.

Forgot about them. Have disappeared from thought due to running only a partial schedule.

[KWSN - DSM]

Sauber celebrate their 40th birthday last year.
Oreca is 40 years old this year.

Sauber was dormant in the BMW years.

[Myrvold]

Sauber was dormant in the BMW years.

However, it was officially BMW Sauber. Though one.

[KWSN - DSM]

However, it was officially BMW Sauber. Though one.

I am certain they were two completely separate legal entities, same way that the Lotus's the past couple of seasons have zero to do with Lotus and whatever the achieve or did not achieve should have zero impact on the glorious history of Lotus.

Peter Sauber sold, and re-bought or at least that is what I view it as, willing to stand corrected on it actually not being two separate legal entities.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Every case is going to be slightly different, but I have no objection to including that in Sauber's run. It was the same F1 franchise, same location, had part of the name, etc.

[BRG]

I don't have tickets to the pedantry bus. One might argue that Subaru have never won a rally, using your logic.

As far as I'm concerned if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. Not a giraffe in a duck suit.

It is hardly pedantry to point out that your suggestion that Ford is involved in rallying at the moment was completely, absolutely, 100% wrong. Cos they ain't.

[flatlander48]

Forgot about them. Have disappeared from thought due to running only a partial schedule.

Often in their heyday years with David Pearson they didn't run full schedules.

[HaydenFan]

Often in their heyday years with David Pearson they didn't run full schedules.

But during that heyday, they were winning. Last time I really remember the #21 car was "when what's his name who didn't get a ride out of it?" won the Daytona 500. Before that with Elliot Sadler in 2000 or 2001. Woods Bros. Racing just fell off the map in terms of being known for the lack of competitiveness they bring.

But they also are amazing in that they have continued to run Fords since their beginnings. McLaren has switch engine providers, Penske has raced everything from a Ford to a Dodge, to Porsche, to Toyota powered IndyCar's, Honda powered IndyCar's, Chevrolet powered IndyCars (while they ran a Ford in NASCAR).

[Ross Stonefeld]

Well, they get sponsorship from Ford companies and Ford associated companies, so switching manufacturers wouldn't be a smart idea at the moment.

[KWSN - DSM]

Every case is going to be slightly different, but I have no objection to including that in Sauber's run. It was the same F1 franchise, same location, had part of the name, etc.

But then the 'standard' of continuous really disappear, BMW bought the old Sauber operation and worked as a BMW legal entity yes from the same premises, however then we can take a number of teams which were bought and became something else, and arguably Tyrrel in it's various incarnations is still existing.

[Ross Stonefeld]

No because the *only* thing that survived Tyrrell was the paperwork. And only because it was cheaper than starting a technically brand new team. And did Sauber change that much or just who had the controlling shares?

[frp]

No because the *only* thing that survived Tyrrell was the paperwork. And only because it was cheaper than starting a technically brand new team. And did Sauber change that much or just who had the controlling shares?

Yes, Ross. Many key Tyrrell people went to the works Honda F1 project, whilst BAR just took over the Tyrrell entry in the World Championship, with a new location, new management, new personnel. When the Honda project was canned, those people went to other teams, largely, IIRC, Benetton. So there's probably more Tyrrell DNA in the current 'Lotus' (Enstone Team) than in the current 'Mercedes' (Brackley Team). It was ironic that Honda later bought BAR, the team that had usurped the team that had about to become Honda.

Sauber, on the other hand, just changed owners for a few years, but has as continuous and stable a history as any team.

Andy

[flatlander48]

But during that heyday, they were winning. Last time I really remember the #21 car was "when what's his name who didn't get a ride out of it?" won the Daytona 500. Before that with Elliot Sadler in 2000 or 2001. Woods Bros. Racing just fell off the map in terms of being known for the lack of competitiveness they bring.

I think they fell victim to the Petty/Foyt Syndrome...

But they also are amazing in that they have continued to run Fords since their beginnings. McLaren has switch engine providers, Penske has raced everything from a Ford to a Dodge to Pontiacs to Matadors, to Porsche to Ferrari to Camaros to Javelins, to Toyota powered IndyCar's, Offenhauser powered Indy cars, Chevrolet stock block powered Indy cars, Oldsmobile powered Indy car, Mercedes powered Indy car, Honda powered IndyCar's, Chevrolet powered IndyCars (while they ran a Ford in NASCAR).

[oetzi]

Then McLaren with 50 years

Going by the 'if someone buys you' rule, McLaren aren't that old. Same if it's by the 'who's actually the team' rule. It was a very different thing after 1981. That's when the 'Is it the same thing? Really?' rule would have them starting.

[oetzi]

Sauber, on the other hand, just changed owners for a few years, but has as continuous and stable a history as any team.

Andy

Lovely team, Sauber. Very welcoming, and not at all interested their own reflections. Hopefully the changes in management won't change the ethos.

[404KF2]

Peugeot is it, and they've won just about everything there is to win over the last 123 years. Benz hasn't been racing as long as Peugeot. Mercedes didn't even exist until ~1902.