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Can Kimi Raikkonen win the 2013 WDC


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Poll: Can he claim the title in 2013? (215 member(s) have cast votes)

Kimi 2013 WDC?

  1. Yes (122 votes [57.01%])

    Percentage of vote: 57.01%

  2. No (92 votes [42.99%])

    Percentage of vote: 42.99%

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#101 bourbon

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 04:37

Nope. Neither Lewis nor Alonso(and I'll add Vettel to that so far) has had any season where they didn't perform well. I've kinda gone over that already.


Actually only Vettel.

And yea, Kimi was disappointing in 2007. Sure, he won the WDC, and that was fantastic to see, but he certainly didn't do it like people expected. Massa proved to be just as good as him that year and small differences were the only thing that kept it from being Massa as the one to have a small shot in the last race. Thats not what Kimi was hired to do. He was to replace Schumacher and his salary reflected that. People thought he was 'the fastest man in F1', including Ferrari, but he clearly wasn't. I thought maybe 2008 would be different. After all, it would be his 2nd year in the team and they were banning traction control, so that was going to be an advantage for him. Except he actually got worse compared to Massa. After that, there was little denying that he wasn't nearly as good as people thought he was. And thats ok. He doesn't need to be the best for me to like him. 2009, again people said 'things would be different'. I had my fingers crossed. But they weren't. Massa matched him again, with all new regulations in place. It was the nail in the coffin for the 'fastest man in F1' idea. Only delusional people could still cling to that.


Those were the last Ferrari saw of the WDC and WCC cups. It's been lean season after lean season since then. You know what is stokin? Kimi's spread on the wall at Ferrari world in Abu Dhabi. Somebody over there is a massive fan. But I digress - the point is, Kimi wanted things fair and wanted there to be a challenge until there was truly a man to back - and he proved it wasn't all talk when he held to that philosophy in 2008. That allowed the duo to bring home the WCC bacon and nearly win 2 WDCs for the team.

I don't really see how any Ferrari fan can compare those days to the present and prefer no cups at all.

I cant buy into Kimi being a top driver anymore, sorry. Its just not in my ability to. If my 'wants' controlled my ability to think rationally, I'd probably be saying the same things y'all are saying now. I've said before Kimi has a chance to win the 2013 WDC, but I think its unlikely unless Lotus build a pretty special car. Ferrari built a special car in 2007 and 2008 and he only barely got a single WDC. I have little doubt Alonso would have made the season boring in the same machinery. I dont say that cuz I'm an Alonso fan, but because I respect how good he is.


But they don't give out cups for those things. In any case, I don't think everyone has to see Kimi as a top driver.

He is though.

Edited by bourbon, 16 January 2013 - 04:42.


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#102 Pulkit

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 05:41

When did massa beat kimi in 2009???

Kimi beat him 5-4 in quail.

On race, kimi suffer more mechanical issues and strategy blunder from the team. Hence the 10 points difference before his crash.

Australia – differential

Malaysia - team took gamble with Kimi by pitting him for wet tyre when the track was borne dry. Tyre damaged in the end, falling off grid. Retire with kers failure.

China - Power loss from engine

Bahrain - Push like mad to secure 6th, Ferrari ‘s first point finish.

Spanish – Hydraulic failure, retire.

Monaco – Outperformed the car and qualified 2nd. Finished 3rd in the end. First podium for Ferrari.

Turkey – Qualified 6th, front wing damaged screw his chances for point finishes.

British – qualified 9th . Great start promote him to 5th…team strategies mistake pitted him under traffic and finished 8th.

German – Radiator break down….retirement

When massa injured, the team halted the car development…nice way to show how they support their “No.1 driver” huh??

Nvr mind, since hungary, nobody scored more points than Kimi except lewis by 1 more points. Mclaren with major upgrade revived and constantly fight on the front, so, it wasn’t surprising.

Vettel, webber, jenson, ruben, lewis all driving better car than the upgradeless F60, still when the team focus on kimi after massa injured, kimi beat them all on point scoring on 2nd half alone. Enough testaments to his ability.

Argue with facts, not with pure sentimental Seanspeed.

#103 beqa16v

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 06:08

I cant really get into this detailed argument, I dont have time for that really. All I can say Ferrari driver policy was very different in 07-09 compared to what it is now. And its clear that a driver will perform when the team is standing behind him 100%. Unfortunately Ferrari wanted Kimi out already in 08 and it showed.

#104 BackOnTop

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 06:16

Some people think their stupid opinion & constant "wishing" matters so much that it is enough to "convert" a World Champion into an Average Driver!! :rolleyes:

KR@ Mclaren 2006- "We let Kimi down": Norbert Haug
KR@ Brazil 2007- Reigning Ferrari Champion
KR@ Hungary 2012- "Kimi is one of the fastest man on the planet": Martin Whitmarsh.
KR@ Hungary 2012- "Between lap 38-45, Kimi let it rip": James Allen Analysis
KR@ AbuDhabi 2012- "Look at that lap after the Safety car!!": Martin Brundle
KR@ AbuDhabi post- "He is, ultimately, the most confident racing driver in a F1 car": Johnny Herbart.
Kr@ Post 2012 season- "Kimi is a special driver, past & present": Jackie Stewart
KR@ Lotus Bonus- "Kimi performed higher than we expected & brings us performance": Gerard Lopez

Note- 6 out of 7 refers to "latest" 2012 season, so the 2008 blah blah is clutching on straws. This also automatically makes Raikkonen as a Title Contender for the 2013 "current" season. Get the hint. People bashing Raikkonen based on personal dislike is rather amusing. Venting on Kimi coz of Alonso's lack of achievement in a Ferrari is not going to re-write Kimi Raikkonen's amazing career.

Suggested Reading: Formula1.com Hall of Fame- Kimi Raikkonen 2007
http://www.formula1....all_of_fame/12/

Edited by BackOnTop, 16 January 2013 - 06:30.


#105 pUs

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 08:12

In comparison, Alonso never had the fastest car. When in Renault it was never the fastest car, not in 2005-06, not in his McLaren stint and definitely not in any of his Ferrari years. For a guy who's considered to be the best team motivator and car developer, not to forget the fastest and most complete driver on the grid he has to be the unluckiest guy who never ends up in the fastest car, even if he drives for the most prestigious teams with the highest budgets. But on the other hand he always beats his teammates, read Massa.


Never even once? :D Sooner or later, the best drivers eventually end up in the best cars, you know..

#106 tormave

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 08:24

I really like Kimi in F1, but just can't see Lotus having the resources to mount a serious challenge over the whole year. The quicker heating tyres will help Kimi (and Button) in qualifying, but I doubt the big 3 teams will stumble as badly as they did in the early part of 2012. So I'd like to be wrong on this, but predict Kimi won't be in the WDC top-3, even if he drives as well as he did last year.

#107 BackOnTop

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 09:02

I really like Kimi in F1, but just can't see Lotus having the resources to mount a serious challenge over the whole year. The quicker heating tyres will help Kimi (and Button) in qualifying, but I doubt the big 3 teams will stumble as badly as they did in the early part of 2012. So I'd like to be wrong on this, but predict Kimi won't be in the WDC top-3, even if he drives as well as he did last year.

As usual, no one can predict which 2 lucky drivers with get their bums in the best cars of 2013.

What can definitely be predicted is that Lotus can keep development up till Hungary. After that, Kimi will make that extra difference as seen by his drives in Spa & Abu Dhabi.

Kimi has put Lotus back on the Winners Map, & Sponsors have put in some exra dollars for this year... Maybe it'll help a bit more for the team going into the new season confident as a winner.



#108 Rinehart

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 09:15

If you take Ferrari, Red Bull, McLaren, Mercedes and Lotus as the teams that could possibly build a WDC challenging car, I think Kimi and Lewis have the hardest jobs to beat their teammates first, before they can think about winning the title. I really think Grojsean is going to be much better next year. That said of course Kimi can win the title if the car is good enough - but I remain surprised that Lotus were able to build such a good car last year, especially after having to back out of the front exhaust concept. Does their 2012 car base itself on a philosophy that they will carry forwards into 2013, or did they strike gold... we shall see. Wouldn't be surprised if Lotus dropped back a bit relative to the others, which would put a pin in Kimis balloon.

#109 BackOnTop

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 09:34

If you take Ferrari, Red Bull, McLaren, Mercedes and Lotus as the teams that could possibly build a WDC challenging car, I think Kimi and Lewis have the hardest jobs to beat their teammates first, before they can think about winning the title. I really think Grojsean is going to be much better next year. That said of course Kimi can win the title if the car is good enough - but I remain surprised that Lotus were able to build such a good car last year, especially after having to back out of the front exhaust concept. Does their 2012 car base itself on a philosophy that they will carry forwards into 2013, or did they strike gold... we shall see. Wouldn't be surprised if Lotus dropped back a bit relative to the others, which would put a pin in Kimis balloon.

To Finish first, first you need to finish! (your sig)

Atleast one box is ticked:- Raikkonen can finish.... rest, it's going to be a long season.

#110 Rikhart

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 12:59

Something is very clearly wrong with someone who says little gems like "2007 ferrari was a special car" (everyone knows the mclaren was the best car that year), "alonso never had a bad year" (the man who was beaten by a rookie, destroyed a team from within, and then fled with his tail between his legs), "kimi isnt a top driver" (he totally lucked into 3rd place in the drivers championship in 2012, like, totally man, and that after 2 years not driving single seaters). Hey, at least you provide entertainment value :rotfl:

#111 Pulkit

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 14:11

On 2008.
In this video, Michael claimed it wasn’t Kimi fault for his downfall since the major development kick in. The advisor of Ferrari squad.


He said that the development simply deviate from Kimi due to lack of understanding on both side….he also hinted kimi didn’t communicate and work with the team to ease the problem.

So, he was driving with a car that wasn’t develop for him in 2008.
However, kimi also encounter many bad luck.

He was going to win Canada, but retired thanks to lewis. Magny Cours too, but exhaust failure cost him while leading.

Spa, amazingly quick despite starting fourth, rain on last 2 laps meant it was over for him.

British, another win got away because the team didn’t pit him for intermediate tyre, another downpour push him behind to behind the grid. The F2008 was extremely bad on wet condition.

Suzuka, thanks to Lewis that screw kimi up again, another win gone.
Bear in mind, Michael already said the car wasn’t build for kimi….and I don’t think his performance was that bad as statistic suggested, he simply had too many bad run by others.


Regarding F2007 and F2008 competitiveness to mclaren mp4-22,23
From mechanical pov, Ferrari went for long wheel base in 2007 which turn out to be bad mistake by the team. Mclaren went for shorter wheelbase. Longer wheel base means that the car would be disadvantage on narrow circuit like Monaco. Adding to the reliability issues, I don’t know how Seanspeed could suggest F2007 is better car than Mp4-22. Lewis, Martin, Norbert all mentioned they had the best car in the end. Norbert in particular pointed out, without the two retirement kimi suffer, championship could’ve ended earlier. Not to mention Mclaren was holding the dossier of F2007 secret, they can improvise on their car a lot and take out the weakness from the car. From the email that Fernando reveal to FIA, it contains a lot of pit stop strategies, fuel load and setup from Kimi ‘s car. It’s amazing kimi could still win the title in the end despite the unfair advantage Mclaren possesses.

I like kimi ‘s performance in shanghai 2007, he really showed why he is special. On inter tyre, he managed to make it last and clocking consistent lap time for a long time, lewis that couldn’t do the same eventually being overtook by Kimi, and skysport claimed Kimi was lucky LMAO. He did the same in Hungary 2012, clocking best time on worn out soft tyre, others pitted on fresh rubber couldn’t do the same. Please name me any driver that did the same??? It strike me nowadays people rate driver based on statistic rather than their driving. Might as well close your TV and just read Wikipedia after the season end.

In 2008, many expert spotted some similarities between mclaren and Ferrari. Again with reliability and issues on wet condition competitiveness, how can anyone claim the F2008 is again better than the mclaren??? Its really funny, driver like kimi cannot make any mistake. While Lewis, Fernando can make all the mistakes they want despite falling short on 2011 and 2004,2007,2010 first half and still halted as great drivers. Tbh, lewis didn’t perform really well in 2008 and wasted a lot of chances on crashing, anyone followed 2008 should know



Need special car to win??
Wasn’t kimi who start the 2003 season with 2002 spec car finished 2 points behind Michael in the end?? Without engine failure in Nurburgring while leading for the win, he could be the first driver to win title in outdated car.
Ron promised Kimi for new car Mp4-18, the overhype car that can doom the field which turns out to be too aggressive and not viable. Leading to Kimi had to endure until the end of the season.
Argue with facts guys, anyone can throw out their opinions. But do not underestimate the in depth knowledge possesses by this forum‘s members. You can’t fool anyone.

#112 DaddyCool

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 14:11

And yea, Kimi was disappointing in 2007. Sure, he won the WDC, and that was fantastic to see, but he certainly didn't do it like people expected. Massa proved to be just as good as him that year and small differences were the only thing that kept it from being Massa as the one to have a small shot in the last race. Thats not what Kimi was hired to do. He was to replace Schumacher and his salary reflected that. People thought he was 'the fastest man in F1', including Ferrari, but he clearly wasn't. I thought maybe 2008 would be different. After all, it would be his 2nd year in the team and they were banning traction control, so that was going to be an advantage for him. Except he actually got worse compared to Massa. After that, there was little denying that he wasn't nearly as good as people thought he was. And thats ok. He doesn't need to be the best for me to like him. 2009, again people said 'things would be different'. I had my fingers crossed. But they weren't. Massa matched him again, with all new regulations in place. It was the nail in the coffin for the 'fastest man in F1' idea. Only delusional people could still cling to that.

I cant buy into Kimi being a top driver anymore, sorry. Its just not in my ability to. If my 'wants' controlled my ability to think rationally, I'd probably be saying the same things y'all are saying now. I've said before Kimi has a chance to win the 2013 WDC, but I think its unlikely unless Lotus build a pretty special car. Ferrari built a special car in 2007 and 2008 and he only barely got a single WDC. I have little doubt Alonso would have made the season boring in the same machinery. I dont say that cuz I'm an Alonso fan, but because I respect how good he is.


LMAO

1. "He didn't win as it was expected" If expectations would matter, Webbo would've been champion in 2010 and Alonso in 2012.
2. "Massa was matching Raikkonen in 2007, in 2008 Kimi plain lost" Massa lost to Kimi by 16 points in 2007 (17 races), Kimi lost to Massa by 22 points in 2008 (18 races). So, losing by 16 points is considered matching, whereas losing by 22 points is a total beating. OK
3. "Fastest man in F1" is a fancy term for the actual young gun. Kimi, Fernando, Lewis, and Seb has been called that a numerous time. Hell, lots of Kimi/Alonso fans consider Hami/Vettel the de facto fastest man on the grid. It's funny that you, - being an Alonso fan - brought this up, since Alonso is the best showcase that outright speed is barely the only factor when it comes to winning WDCs.

#113 Skinnyguy

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 14:52

Has nothing to do with my likings, no matter how much you spam that 'I hate Kimi' stuff, sorry. I get no benefit from thinking what I do. Its just what I think. And yes, when Massa is equaling or bettering the results of Lewis on a fairly regular basis, I dont think its such an unsafe assumption to say the car was probably better. A lot of people dont consider the driver aspect when looking at 2007/2008. Lewis and Alonso are proven difference makers and I think they'd have easily come home with WDC's in 2007 and 2008 with those Ferrari's at their disposal.


Idee fixeé. Can´t fight it, don´t have the intention to do it either. Enjoy your fantasy.

Kimi was a little disappointing in 2007 already. Massa was regularly matching Kimi that year.


How? He was the driver of the year. Massa was regulary matching (and beating) everyone. Kimi, Lewis, and Alonso. I guess they´re all dissapointing. Kimi´s 2007 was similar -indeed slightly better due to having made less mistakes- to Alonso´s 2010: average first half, outstanding second half. Guess Alonso was dissapointing too then. :rolleyes:

I have little doubt Alonso would have made the season boring in the same machinery.


How?? He didn´t even win it in equally fast and more reliable machinery. How was he supposed to make it boring??

2008 he plain lost.


True.

2009 I'd say they were about even.


True.

All in all, thats 3 disappointing seasons. Not one and a half.



False. His 2007 was pretty darn good. Better than anyone else´s 2007 actually. His last part of 2009 was excellent. One and a half weak years. Seems you need some reviewing.

Alonso and Lewis have never gone that long with periods of lulls. In fact, they rarely go more than one or two races. Even in 2011, Lewis has quite a lot of very notable performances.


What´s the difference? Even during 2008 Kimi had excellent days too. Like Spain, Malaysia or France. In the end the situation it´s just how I told you: Alonso has been around 12 years, he´s been "weak" in full 2004 and half of 2008 and 2010. Lewis has been around 6 years, he´s been weak in half 2009 and full 2011. Räikkönen has been weak in 2008 and half 2009. Nothing different between them, except the standard you use to rate them depending on your biases.

In the end, only Vettel stands out in the "no buggie seasons" deppartment, and you´ll agree Lewis and Alonso are top too. And Kimi´s in the same situation.

I dont think Alonso or Lewis would ever go through such a long period of underperforming and thats why they are top drivers and Kimi isn't.


You don´t need to think it, it has already happened.

I cant say Kimi has ever beaten Alonso or Lewis in a straight fight without them being in the same machinery, sorry. You will say they were in equal cars because you rate Kimi along with those guys. We're all going to rate the machinery somebody drives using how much we rate the drivers driving them to a degree.


I say they were in tied machinery because that´s what season´s events show. You´re the one bringing up biased driver´s ratings to try guessing car performances.

I think basically it comes down to you ignoring a large section of Kimi's career in order to keep rating him like you do. I cant look past it. And yes, its gonna affect how I think about his WDC chances in the future and what he'd need to get it done.


One and a half poor years it´s not "a large section" of a career when the career lasts more than 10 years. Not for Räikkönen, and not for Alonso either. You´ll realize how stupid it is when it gets like this: "Alonso isn´t a contender, remember how weak he was in 2004 and the first half of 2008 and 2010, no chance."

I don´t think you´re able to rate the guy fairly, to put it simple. Not that you should care, but honestly I don´t think you are able to do it no matter how you try.

I´m a fan, but I can see when he does good, and when he does bad. I don´t use excuses either: if a season is bad, it´s bad and I don´t buy internal fights, conspiracies and suspensions stories.

In the other hand, you can see when he does bad, but when he does good you conclude it must have been the car, as he once did bad, so he must have always done that bad but had a missile car. And that´s a pretty stupid logic, you´ll agree as soon as you change the driver we talk about.

Edited by Skinnyguy, 16 January 2013 - 15:12.


#114 D.M.N.

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 15:43

I'm becoming concerned that this is turning into a driver thread. Please remember the purpose of the thread, off-topic posts will be removed and/or the thread will be closed.

Regards

#115 Lazy Prodigy

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 15:50

Can he? yes.
Will he? Depends on car.

#116 Winter98

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 16:00

So there is hope that the car will continue to improve into 2013, as it did between 2011 and 2012, with dedication from its team, crew and drivers. ... to earn the championship title for the team (WCC) and driver (WDC). Raikkonen can most certainly bring home the WDC (and with Grosjean the WCC) if Lotus can continue to improve its performance on the season.


Agreed.

It would be pretty cool if Kimi could get his second WDC this year.

#117 boldhakka

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 16:46

I've become more optimistic about this for some reason. I would venture to hazard that it will be one of his better seasons.

McLaren have a weaker lineup and Lewis is hampered a little as well. RBR and Ferrari will be the primary competition, but both will be hampered by having to push all the way to the end of 2012, thus leaving less time to innovate on the 2013 car. Even though the regs stay roughly the same, extra lead time is never wasted by any team, and Lotus do have a small advantage there.

#118 2ms

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 18:47

My impression has been that regs staying the same generally means the race boils down to who has the most resources more than any other time, and things like ingenuity and luck have smaller roles than they do in years with greater unpredictability. See all of the 90s and pre-09.

In other words, I think Lotus will have the 4th best car at best and could easily be behind Sauber, Williams, or Force India as well.

It never crosses our mind that Sauber or Force India might be a candidate for a championship. But why is that? It is because they do not have the resources of a top team. Lotus is the same. The Enstone of 05/06 was a manufacturer team. In other words, more in common with Ferrari than to Lotus/Williams/Sauber etc.

#119 KimiSolberg

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 11:55

Kimi can win, sure. Is it likely? Nope.

Lotus seemed at times to be huge n00bs in regards to tactics in 2012. I have never heard Boullier or anyone else - even Kimi - address this issue. As long as that remains the same, the team will never win another championship. Ferrari and especially Red Bull are the best at doing what needs to be done imho.

Edited by D.M.N., 18 January 2013 - 16:38.
" Ps. Is this the new Kimi thread? Fine by me :)" - no it isn't, driver threads are banned


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#120 Skinnyguy

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 16:27

Lotus seemed at times to be huge n00bs in regards to tactics in 2012.


C´mon, that´s unfair. They had a car that would make the tyres last long, but wouldn´t be too fast initially. Sometimes when you were screaming to the screen "For God´s sake, try an undercut!!" it might not have been such a good idea, their outlap wouldn´t be special, the other guys would cover them one lap later and still emerge in front, and carry newer tyres from then on. The car asked for some special tactics, look at the way the went in Hungary.

I agree they can improve and have made costly mistakes sometimes (China, Bahrain Q2...) but they are far from incompetent and have given Räikkönen and Grosjean a good car and good chances for podiums and wins.

#121 ASFA2011

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 16:36

Just to answer the question of the thread , can he win the WDC in 2013 ? Yes he can , so all the other 21 drivers ( at least potentially ) , will he win it ? More than likely not

#122 Winter98

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 16:59

Just to answer the question of the thread , can he win the WDC in 2013 ? Yes he can , so all the other 21 drivers ( at least potentially ) , will he win it ? More than likely not


Yeah, probably not.

Based strictly on last year's car, I think he he has a better chance than Hamilton.

Just glanced at betfair, and I believe they give Hamilton a slightly better chance. (I'm not an online better, might be reading odds wrong)

Edited by Winter98, 18 January 2013 - 16:59.


#123 KimiSolberg

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 13:18

C´mon, that´s unfair. They had a car that would make the tyres last long, but wouldn´t be too fast initially. Sometimes when you were screaming to the screen "For God´s sake, try an undercut!!" it might not have been such a good idea, their outlap wouldn´t be special, the other guys would cover them one lap later and still emerge in front, and carry newer tyres from then on. The car asked for some special tactics, look at the way the went in Hungary.

I agree they can improve and have made costly mistakes sometimes (China, Bahrain Q2...) but they are far from incompetent and have given Räikkönen and Grosjean a good car and good chances for podiums and wins.


I guess I'm a bit harsh saying Lotus were tactics n00bs in 2012, but look at it this way: If the car was so good as every pundit says it was, why did Lotus win only 1 race? I guess I'm leaning towards tactics in Kimis case. Perhaps a different matter when it comes to the raging frenchy.

#124 slmk

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 13:22

Yes, he can be WDC. Just like most people "can." He certainly can based on last year's pecking order.

Now, will he? I don't think so unless Lotus can step it up a notch and he, Kimi, can step it up in qualifying.

#125 Skinnyguy

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 13:58

I guess I'm a bit harsh saying Lotus were tactics n00bs in 2012, but look at it this way: If the car was so good as every pundit says it was, why did Lotus win only 1 race?


Lotus had just 2 genuine chances to win because of their own raw pace was the best: Bahrain and Hungary. In Bahrain the team got Q2 wrong (if you´re going to try 1 lap in a fastly improving track, do it towards the end of the session) and still they got close, in Hungary they had the pace over McLaren but just couldn´t pass Lewis. In the end they still won one race.

Unless you consider Villeneuve as "every pundit" they did squeeze the car pretty well if you ask me, with loads of podiums, one win, and 3rd on WDC. They did miss maybe one more win, but no dramas really. I agree their tactics could have been sharper, but it was far from a disaster, and I expect them to get better next year... because they did already progress as the season went forward.