26 replies to this topic

[SonnyViceR]

Self-explanatory poll questions.

There's a poll @ Ten Tenths sort of like this, but I made this slighty bigger and advanced.

Edited by SonnyViceR, 08 January 2013 - 18:15.

[SonnyViceR]

PS: If option "don't have one" has more than half of the votes on polls #2 and #3 by the time we get to ~50 voters, I'm going to cry.

[LiJu914]

Hmm, perhaps i´m not following Endurance Racing closely enough, but i´m surprised that i´m the first one to vote for Le Mans 2011. I can´t remember a closer battle for the win in recent years.

[Henri Greuter]

Hmm, perhaps i´m not following Endurance Racing closely enough, but i´m surprised that i´m the first one to vote for Le Mans 2011. I can´t remember a closer battle for the win in recent years.

I'll buy you a kleenex Sonny!
Sorry but I simply cant get any of the other races on TV and decent coverage in word is also not obtainable in my country anymore so I can't come up with any interesting anecdote of either Sembring or the PLM other then that one year both factory teams were beaten by a older private Peugeot.
few if anyone seems to care about sportscar racing anymoer in my country, Bernie got the job done over here......

And what Indy does with Indycars is Le Mans with sportcars: One event is of such incredibly importance that it it bigger ena more important then all other reaces in the series combined.
Sad but true



Henri

[SonnyViceR]

Hmm, perhaps i´m not following Endurance Racing closely enough, but i´m surprised that i´m the first one to vote for Le Mans 2011. I can´t remember a closer battle for the win in recent years.

I throughly enjoyed it but I'm not one of those people who calls it the best race evah in the history of mankind. Actually in many ways the 2008 race was even better.

But I went with 2010. Now technically it wasn't the most interesting of battles when you look at the times (the massive 4 second gap between the makes!) and there were really no proper head to head battles, but the fact that Audi managed to win the race with old fashioned reliability and defeat the all-conquering 908s and their cocky drivers / team personell did it for me. It was a very weird tale of glory and misfortunes, I can't really explain it.

Then again, I mainly follow the GT categories so I might not always pay full attention to P1. Even when I'm re-re-re watching the race

Edited by SonnyViceR, 08 January 2013 - 19:05.

[SonnyViceR]

I'll buy you a kleenex Sonny!
Sorry but I simply cant get any of the other races on TV and decent coverage in word is also not obtainable in my country anymore so I can't come up with any interesting anecdote of either Sembring or the PLM other then that one year both factory teams were beaten by a older private Peugeot.
few if anyone seems to care about sportscar racing anymoer in my country, Bernie got the job done over here......

And what Indy does with Indycars is Le Mans with sportcars: One event is of such incredibly importance that it it bigger ena more important then all other reaces in the series combined.
Sad but true



Henri

I live in Finland... there is absolute zero sportscar coverage on TV (unless your house gets cable/satellite and manages to get Eurosport's non-existent range of sportscar programming, or pay extra and get Motors etc) and 99,99% of the people who follow motorsport don't care if it's non-F1, non-WRC. So as sportscar fan I'm in total, total minority.

But everything is available on web if you know where to look... even if for some strange reason you choose to ignore the, umm, the slightly less legal ways of obtaining these races (which there are many and in glorious HD quality), nearly everything gets uploaded to on youtube these days - by kids who claim the material to be their own capping, but in fact they just downloaded those races from those 'other sources' I mentioned.

Even if you dismiss those and cannot get TV coverage (or web subscription things like Eurosport Player, speed2, espn3 etc), well most of these series have their own free streaming and on-demand services today
FIA WEC streams at Dailymotion and other places
ELMS on dailymotion
ALMS on espn3 (UK) and alms.com (international), also uploads to youtube
Grand-Am and CTSCC store their races on their website, you may view them in full
IGTO has HD streaming service
Most of the SRO series are streamed via Dailymotion
Nurburgring 24h, Spa 24, Dubai 24h, Zolder 24h, Silverstone 24h etc are streamed too (in N24's case, the FULL race is broadcasted)
etc etc etc

Radio Le Mans provides free audio commentary for all ACO sanctioned events (minus ALMS after 2010) and also has a wide selection of other races and stuff.

Plus obviously there are many unofficial streams going on at justin.tv, ustream etc. Then there are external programs, proxy possibilites and so on

Edited by SonnyViceR, 08 January 2013 - 19:30.

[ArnageWRC]

Agree about the coverage; whilst I have Sky, and can watch Eurosport, MotorsTV, I sometimes don't have access to the main TV. So the WEC, Blancpain, ALMS, GT1, FFSA Tour, etc have all been streamed on either Dailymotion and/ or the series website.

F1 is the only series that has dedicated mainstream coverage - if you're a fan of other series, you have to look for it.

[LiJu914]

But I went with 2010. Now technically it wasn't the most interesting of battles when you look at the times (the massive 4 second gap between the makes!) and there were really no proper head to head battles, but the fact that Audi managed to win the race with old fashioned reliability and defeat the all-conquering 908s and their cocky drivers / team personell did it for me. It was a very weird tale of glory and misfortunes, I can't really explain it.

Thx for the explanation. I could understand the votes for 2008, but wondered at first, what was so noteworthy about 2010..just looking at the results (i didn´t watch it that year).

[smigel]

I'm afraid I can't get too enthused about diesel powered cars racing each other ahead of the rest of the field...

[SonnyViceR]

I'm afraid I can't get too enthused about diesel powered cars racing each other ahead of the rest of the field...

You enjoy this sort of "close" petrol "prototype" racing then?





Personally speaking though, and all jokes put aside, I've strongly preferred the "petrol field" over the Audi vs Pug (and now Audi vs Toyota) battle for as long as I remember. That's why I've been moaning so long about the slow death of the P1 privateers, there's really a ridiculously small field left - and after this year the only possible place to run those cars will be WEC. The new 2014 regs are again favouring manufacturers and privateers are left in the cold. And no, I couldn't care less for LMP2 - it's cost capped formula isn't a replacement...

Edited by SonnyViceR, 08 January 2013 - 20:24.

[Dolph]

PS: If option "don't have one" has more than half of the votes on polls #2 and #3 by the time we get to ~50 voters, I'm going to cry.

Hey, in my country we get ZERO coverage of anything related to Le Mans. TV coverage is not reachable by any legal way in my country. The Le Mans 24 hours makes the newspapers as five sentences at best. I'm making a lot of effort to follow the now defunct ALMS, WEC & the 24hours. If you are going to cry its not because some of us aren't trying.

[SonnyViceR]

Hey, in my country we get ZERO coverage of anything related to Le Mans. TV coverage is not reachable by any legal way in my country. The Le Mans 24 hours makes the newspapers as five sentences at best. I'm making a lot of effort to follow the now defunct ALMS, WEC & the 24hours. If you are going to cry its not because some of us aren't trying.

Check post #6...

[SonnyViceR]

But okay, I admit it, I should've left "don't have one" out of these polls. That would have scared some (/most) of the voters away but the percentages would've looked less sad too.

I'm not blaming anybody, that's just the way it is with minor genres and F1-centric forums

Edited by SonnyViceR, 08 January 2013 - 22:19.

[byrkus]

And what Indy does with Indycars is Le Mans with sportcars: One event is of such incredibly importance that it it bigger ena more important then all other reaces in the series combined.
Sad but true

True, but it's been like that since... forever?

First Le Mans 24hrs - 1923; first WSC season: 1953

One could argue that Le Mans is bigger that the whole season combined, and it could possibly be true. I mean, look at many manufacturers that came in: half a century ago, jaguar was only concentrated in LM (and lost the Championship because they simply didn't bother with other races!). When Ford came into racing in 1964, their objective was to beat Ferrari AT LE MANS, and not in the champinship! And when Le Mans got removed from WSC in 1975... well... The race remained a classic, while the Sporstcar Championship practically went bust and only recovered after Group C got started in 1982.

Etc. Anyways, in my view, Le Mans was, is, and remains bigger than the whole season combined. Everybody remember the LM Winners; but far fewer remembers the actual World Sportcars championship winning manufacturers.

[SonnyViceR]

Etc. Anyways, in my view, Le Mans was, is, and remains bigger than the whole season combined. Everybody remember the LM Winners; but far fewer remembers the actual World Sportcars championship winning manufacturers.

Agreed.

[Henri Greuter]

True, but it's been like that since... forever?

Yup, and it never changed.
Though I can remember that in the heydays of Grp C (Mid eightties) you could predict the races quite well. But media coverage was, (given the situation of that time) better then nowadays. I remember Brian Kreisky's SportsVision company covering most of the Grp C races and these reports being broadcasted on Sky Channel's International Motor Sport. It was only one hour each week but worth watching! (Together with the coverage they did of WDC and WCC rallying in the Group B era)
I am pretty sure that this contributed a lot to the popularity of Gp C racing in that era. These programs did make watchers aware that there was more then Le Mans only yet at the same time promoted Le Mans too.
Once (damned) Bernie Ecclestone got involved with sportscars and the TV rights, Kreisky was put out of business and GpC followed soon...


Henri

[byrkus]

One could also argue that Group C made a step backwards in race format - gone were the 6 & 12 hrs races (with exeption of Daytona dn Sebring), and enter the 300-mile "endurance" races. Meh. True, those Saubers and Jaguars (and of course 956/962s!) were beasts which could make back-line F1 cars blush. But there's no point in having endurance races, which are over in less than three hours. More TV friendly? Sure. But still, it's not quite the same.

(and yes, I'm quite aware you could use the same argument with current GT1 championships...)

[Henri Greuter]

One could also argue that Group C made a step backwards in race format - gone were the 6 & 12 hrs races (with exeption of Daytona dn Sebring), and enter the 300-mile "endurance" races. Meh. True, those Saubers and Jaguars (and of course 956/962s!) were beasts which could make back-line F1 cars blush. But there's no point in having endurance races, which are over in less than three hours. More TV friendly? Sure. But still, it's not quite the same.

(and yes, I'm quite aware you could use the same argument with current GT1 championships...)

Maybe this was not clear enough yet. But I preferred the format of 1000 km races and/or 6 hour events over the sprint events.
It made sense for live TV coverage to go to shorter events. And TV coverage was needed to generate interest for the big events. But I see your point, make no mistake.
I doubt if Endurance racing can be made interesting for TV format. You watch Le Mans because it is Le Mans, but would you watch a full 6 hours of Silverstone? I am affraid I wouldn't but watching a report of 2 hours? Yes I would.
The strange thing of the `Top events` is that you gonna watch then live on TV because it is `the one`
Like how many people really care about cycling but they watch and follow the Tour de France.
Same for tennis but when it is Wimbledon?
And how many sports don't interest you normally but during the Olympics (Summer and Winter) you watch them eagerly `Because it is the Olympics"
Le Mans does the same

GT's, Must we talk about that? Ever since that McLaren "GroupC" was admitted into GT racing it has gone from bad to worse.
And it still puzzles me that the Maserati MC12 was handicapped because of not being a Street GT in the true sence of the word but there were at least cars made available for racing with privateer teams too while for a long time you could buy the production Corvette with ease but could not get a race ready Corvette to race with because the factory team was the only one permitted to run them, interested customers not welkcome for a long time.
Not even mentioning how BMW could win an IMSA title in the entry GT category for cars built in large numbers and/or subSupercar level with a car of which eventually never enough cars were built to meet the requirements for the category.....

OOPs, now I talked about it after all,,,, Sorry....


Henri

[SonnyViceR]

You're wrong about the Corvettes... in GTS/GT1 no-one else got to run them (until about mid-noughties) as for a while P&M wasn't terribly interested in selling the existing GT1 chassises. All of the GT1 cars were built solely for the factory team and there's nothing wrong with that, it's a different case than with such big budget marques as Ferrari, Porsche etc who have hundreds of teams on the line. And when the customers finally started to receive their C5-Rs and later C6.Rs, the factory team was still running alongsíde those same cars till 2009.

The only really dirty incident happened during the babysteps of the GT2 program when the privateer-run (and built) Riley LG GT2 Corvette was blackmailed by GM to prevent them from running non-official Corvettes in the same class as the factory cars. Not sure if that court case has ended yet.

Also:
BMW always gets off easily so no need to go down that road again... and the MC12's problem wasn't really it's status as "homologation special", but because that car would've have utterly dominated every single race it entered had there been no restrictions - also it wasn't quite legal with the rules which was the main issue. ACO was right when it banned it from Le Mans.

And your claim that Maserati had more racing versions of the MC12 available for customers doesn't really matter a bit... it's irrelevant how many racing models of the cars is built, the issue is the amount of produced street cars.

Edited by SonnyViceR, 09 January 2013 - 19:28.

[Henri Greuter]

Post deleted because of on second thought too negative comments.


Henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 09 January 2013 - 22:07.

[Dan333SP]

I really enjoyed the Sebring race that ORECA won, but I voted for the 2009 event because I was there. Also made it to that year's PLM, but that was a bit of a washout!

[crooky369]

Only properly got into it last year so I've only seen two on the list.

Is there anywhere where these races can be viewed?

[Henri Greuter]

You're wrong about the Corvettes... in GTS/GT1 no-one else got to run them (until about mid-noughties) as for a while P&M wasn't terribly interested in selling the existing GT1 chassises. All of the GT1 cars were built solely for the factory team and there's nothing wrong with that, it's a different case than with such big budget marques as Ferrari, Porsche etc who have hundreds of teams on the line. And when the customers finally started to receive their C5-Rs and later C6.Rs, the factory team was still running alongsíde those same cars till 2009.

The only really dirty incident happened during the babysteps of the GT2 program when the privateer-run (and built) Riley LG GT2 Corvette was blackmailed by GM to prevent them from running non-official Corvettes in the same class as the factory cars. Not sure if that court case has ended yet.

Also:
BMW always gets off easily so no need to go down that road again... and the MC12's problem wasn't really it's status as "homologation special", but because that car would've have utterly dominated every single race it entered had there been no restrictions - also it wasn't quite legal with the rules which was the main issue. ACO was right when it banned it from Le Mans.

And your claim that Maserati had more racing versions of the MC12 available for customers doesn't really matter a bit... it's irrelevant how many racing models of the cars is built, the issue is the amount of produced street cars.

As for your defence on Corvette letting any potential customers down compared with Ferrari and Forsche.
Talking GTs/GT1: Porsche wasn't involved in GT1 racing anymore at that time. They did GT2 and below only at that time. Like Corvette with a car based on a cars generally for sale and in fairly large numbers too. So it is unfair to drag Porsche in this defence since Porsche was pretty much pushed out of GT1 racing with the arrival of those American bigblock juggernauts. (Though you might argue if the McLaren F1 deserves the honor for having been the first one to work the 911 derivatives out of top GT categories.)
Ferrari initially wasn't involved at all. The Prodrive 550 Maranellos started their careers after being bought second hand and were then rebuilt into race cars. The ferrari suipported follow up on that the 575 was rather catastrophic. If it comes to support for the series because of making cars avaialble to customers, I can't make up my mind on Ferrari being any better in that respect then Corvette was in that same era.

The mid-engined Ferraris of the second level category need no mentioning here since they were not up against Corvettes in the same category.

The MC12 became pretty much a victim because of something like three different series worldwide, each with a formula that differed enoguh form the others to make it difficult tocompete with one and the same car in every of these events. One formula prescribed GT2 cars being near standard but the 360Modena had to drop its standard undertray because it had aerodynamic profiles that were forbidden. Taking ot off however the car was even more less standard than the street cars!
OCA really should have given the MC12 some waiver. Running it unlimited was impossible, I agree with you on that. And if it was a true GT in the true sense of the word is very debatable. Makes you wonder if a racing version of the Enzo would have had the same opposition given the fact that there were more of those built.
But the MC12 was at least permitted in other series and I am pretty sure that with some Works support (FIAT paying of course) the MC12 would have created a lot of interest at Le Mans, being hailed as the return of another legendary brand of the past: Maserati.
Two or so Masers instead of some of the sometimes laugable other entries we saw like the Morgans, TVRs, Japanese entered Lamorghinis and some other clownesque cars we got instead, and those up against the Corvettes and Astons and Maranellos and the occassional Saleen. Could have been something worth looking to.
Given the turmoil GT racing was in at that time, ACO should have given Maserati at least a chance like other organizers did.


Henri

[SonnyViceR]

I only mentioned Ferrari and Porsche as they were the first names that came to my mind, sorry if it sounded like I was talking purely about GT1. But the Aston Martins for example were built from scratch both for the factory and privateers... I mean there were zillions of DBR9s constructed (don't know the exact number as I'm the biggest fan of AMR, but what I do know is that the amount of those cars built was HUGE) while only eleven Corvette C5-R and eight (GT1) C6.R chassis - plus the original masqueraded C5-R/C6.R test mule - ever existed. Two new upgraded chassis per season was roughly the rule.

Also while the first customer-run C5-R didn't emerge until 2003 in Europe, there had been some serious talks about these things as early as 2001, only two years after the first race for the factory cars.

Regarding Maserati:
Obviously the MC12 was a beast of a car, just awesone to watch on track. But there was a reason why what happened actually happened
FIA - legal with some restritions, and some favourable rulings
IMSA - legal with massive restrictions, after everyone complained
ACO - totally forbidden, did not comply with regs

I always felt that the FIA/SRO was in bed with the Italian marque when they raced in FIA GT... but at least it honestly was the most powerful car of the grid that took all the championship wins, unlike in the world of today where the crappiest and least developed car can easily take the honours (cough GT3 cough)

The LMGTE of today is much more violated and nonsensical than GT1/GT2 structure ever was, thanks to millions of waivers, ever increasing use of BoP and the regulations that mean nothing. GT3's rise hasn't helped either...

Edited by SonnyViceR, 10 January 2013 - 13:45.

[SonnyViceR]

So the poll might have failed but this GT discussion is pretty interesting...

By the way, the amount of votes 2009 LM is getting is very, very interesting. I liked that battle, as well as Audi's total meltdown (Pug's win was FRESH to say the least, too), but I'd imagine that on some other forums the 2011 edition would dominate this poll

Edited by SonnyViceR, 10 January 2013 - 13:53.

[Henri Greuter]

So the poll might have failed but this GT discussion is pretty interesting...

By the way, the amount of votes 2009 LM is getting is very, very interesting. I liked that battle, as well as Audi's total meltdown (Pug's win was FRESH to say the least, too), but I'd imagine that on some other forums the 2011 edition would dominate this poll

Thanks for explaining the Ferrari-Porsche matter.
I am pretty sure that if Corvette had wanted it, there would have been interested parties to run the damned thing, certainly in the USA.
As for me, I think the MC12 was indeed stretching the rule too far, now had it been an Enzo (of which more examples are built the the McLaren F1.....) And had all rulemakers banned the car that would have been better then wat eventually happened. But that of all boards ACO the one (lone) borad banned it, that was a real pity.

As for healty GT races, I am affraid we won't see that being achieved anymore. Regrettably

LMP's have a problem; Do we really want LMP1 with all the hitech and two factories involved or shall we go to LMP2 which is more accesable for more factories as well as privateers but is less fast and less spectacular.
If it yields many factories getting involved and full fields, I instantly sacrifice the LMP1s for LMP2s
For GT's the problem as I can see it is: Do we really want the (bigblock) Supercars being part of it too or shall we concentrate on more reasonable prized, sized and specs cars of which more companies built examples which are more equal to begin with? And can be made more comparable?
If more companies could field cars like the 911 and the Ferraris then I can live easily without the outreageous supercars and/or cars with trucksize engines to assure they have enough weight at the front axle.


A number of the Audi/Pug battles were memorable. 2009/2010/2011 each had dramas that made it a fantastic event, each for another reason. 2011 a great battle, 2010 the total collapse of Peugeot in a race they could only loose and did loose.
But seeing Audi go down and beaten at last and at least for once makes 2009 for me the most memorable one. After a while you want to see a new name in winners circle. Thats what made the Jaguar victory of 1988 so very special as well, apart from the fact that it was Jaguar. But at least and at last the Porsche string was broken.

Henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 10 January 2013 - 14:44.

[MaxisOne]

2010 Le Mans

Them Audi TDI's kept on ticking like a well tuned Rolex while the admittedly faster FAPS dropped one by one like flies into the night.

In the face of adversity you don't give up ... That was what that race was about.