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No one is perfect


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#1 mnmracer

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 11:03

2012 was an amazing year for Formula One fans, with 6 World Champions on the grid, two of which battled for the title until the very last race. Although there is plenty of debate on who was the best driver of 2012, most fans and pundits agree there was very little to separate Sebastian Vettel, Fernando Alonso, Lewis Hamilton and Kimi Räikkönen. While I wholeheartedly agree they deserve much praise for their performances this year, some comments have gone a little over the top: they were 'flawless', 'never made a mistake' and 'always got 100% out of the car'.

With that in mind, I think a little perspective might be good, just so we can remember 2012 and the top drivers the way they were: perfectly flawed.

I've categorized this into 4 categories:
  • performance: underperforming, being beaten by team mate on race pace (incl. team orders). As todays qualifying format means there is a difference between best qualifying set-up and race set-up, and the points are earned on Sunday, this will only count for race pace. Picking the wrong set-up, does not discount a mark in this category.
  • time loss: driver spun, had a significant off-track moment, or did something else that cost him time.
  • crash: driver crashed out, by himself or in an avoidable colission, or caused another driver to crash out. Instances where a driver was ran into, and could not be fairly expected to avoid the crash (i.e. Hamilton and Maldonado in Valencia), do not earn a mark in this category, but will earn a victim mark.
  • penalty: driver earned a behavior-based penalty (i.e. illegal overtake).
Sebastian Vettel
Posted Image
  • victim: despite leaving Karthikeyan 5 ft of space, was ran into the back by the HRT in Malaysia. Although avoidable, he can't be blamed.
  • performance: outperformed by Webber in China, finished 4th, 3 seconds ahead of Vettel in 5th.
  • penalty: received a drive-through penalty after not slowing down enough for yellow flags in Spain.
  • performance: outperformed by Webber in Monaco, who won the race, 1.5 seconds ahead of Vettel in 4th.
  • performance: outperformed by Webber in Silverstone, who won the race, 5 seconds ahead of Vettel in 3rd.
  • penalty: received a drive-through penalty turned 25 second post-race penalty for an illegal overtake on Button in Germany.
  • penalty: received a drive-through penalty for squeezing Alonso off-track in Monza.
  • crash: almost ran into the back of Ricciardo in Abu Dhabi, losing his front wing on a DRS sign.
  • time loss: overtook Romain Grosjean off-track in Abu Dhabi and needed to give the position back.
  • crash: was surprised by a late braking Senna in Brazil. Although he could not see him, he could have anticipated lap 1 chaos.

Fernando Alonso
Posted Image
  • crash: ended his Q2 qualifying in Australia after spinning out.
  • crash: squeezed Romain Grosjean at the start in Monaco, causing the crash with Schumacher.
  • victim: was crashed into by Romain Grosjean in Belgium.
  • crash: ran into Kimi Räikkönen in turn 1 in Japan, causing his own DNF.
  • performance: outperformed on race pace by Massa in Korea, who was held back by team orders.
  • performance: outqualified and outperformed on race pace by Massa in Austin, USA, who was held back by team orders.
  • time loss: ran off the road twice at turn 1 in Brazil.
  • performance: outqualified and outperformed on race pace by Massa in Brazil, who was held back by team orders.

Lewis Hamilton
Posted Image
  • performance: outperformed by Button, who won the race in Australia, 4 seconds ahead of Hamilton in 3rd.
  • performance: outperformed by Button, who despite a bad pitstop finished second, 6 seconds ahead of Hamilton in 3rd.
  • victim: was ran into by Pastor Maldonado, who was overtaking Hamilton for 3rd in Valencia. Although avoidable, he can't be blamed.
  • performance: outperformed by Button, who qualified ahead and showed better race pace in Germany.
  • victim: was crashed into by Romain Grosjean in Belgium. Although avoidable, he can't be blamed.
  • performance: outperformed by Button, who qualified ahead and was untouchable in Belgium.
  • performance: outperformed by Button, who finished 3rd in Japan, 19 seconds ahead of Hamilton in 4th.

Kimi Räikkönen
Posted Image
  • time loss: ran wide in Q2 in Australia and qualified only 18th.
  • performance: outperformed by Grosjean in all qualifying sessions in Monaco.
  • performance: outperformed by Grosjean in Canada, who finished 2nd, 13 seconds ahead of Räikkönen in 8th.
  • performance: outperformed by Grosjean on qualifying and race pace in Valencia, prior to his team-mates mechanical issues.
  • crash: spun in qualifying in Japan, which left him in 8th place, to his team-mate's 4th.
  • time loss: went off-track at the start in Brazil.
  • time loss: went off-track and took a wrong escape road in Brazil.

Edited by mnmracer, 14 January 2013 - 14:08.


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#2 noikeee

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 11:13

1. This isn't going to end well.

2. This isn't the right way of analysing performance, everything's relative, one "underperformance" of being beaten by 1 second over a race vs a world class team-mate, isn't the same as an "underperformance" of being 30 seconds behind a paydriver. A crash may kill your race and take away a full 25 points from you, or lose you 5 seconds without damage. Then you'll get different people having different interpretations of the same incidents. You can't just hand out X amount of crash badges or underperformance badges, and say driver A has more badges than driver B.

3. I have a vague idea - I didn't follow this season to an anal level of detail so could be wrong - that Vettel was outperformed by Webber quite a few more times than you're listing, particularly in the 1st half of the season.

4. This isn't going to end well.

#3 Atreiu

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 11:17

I thought, by the title, that is thread would have been about the biggest or most costly mistakes by our favourite drivers.

#4 mnmracer

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 11:21

2. This isn't the right way of analysing performance, everything's relative, one "underperformance" of being beaten by 1 second over a race vs a world class team-mate, isn't the same as an "underperformance" of being 30 seconds behind a paydriver. A crash may kill your race and take away a full 25 points from you, or lose you 5 seconds without damage. Then you'll get different people having different interpretations of the same incidents. You can't just hand out X amount of crash badges or underperformance badges, and say driver A has more badges than driver B.

I'm not analyzing performance, hence the title ;-)
Just a quick overview to show that claims like 'flawless', 'never made a mistake' and 'got 100% out of the car all the time' are incorrect.

3. I have a vague idea - I didn't follow this season to an anal level of detail so could be wrong - that Vettel was outperformed by Webber quite a few more times than you're listing, particularly in the 1st half of the season.

Webber outperformed Vettel only in the 3 races listed.

Edited by mnmracer, 14 January 2013 - 11:22.


#5 prty

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 11:26

Choosing a spinning picture of Alonso and using colors will not make you less wrong :lol:

#6 mnmracer

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 11:43

Choosing a spinning picture of Alonso and using colors will not make you less wrong :lol:

Nor will just saying it's wrong, make you right.
Try again :wave:

But I anticipated posts like yours, and don't worry, people like you are not who I wrote it for ;-)

Edited by mnmracer, 14 January 2013 - 11:44.


#7 bub

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 11:47

Choosing a spinning picture of Alonso and using colors will not make you less wrong :lol:


Wrong how? Somebody is perfect?

#8 prty

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 11:52

Nor will just saying it's wrong, make you right.
Try again :wave:

But I anticipated posts like yours, and don't worry, people like you are not who I wrote it for ;-)


Maybe I will try again with colors yeah...
And guess what, you write for the whole forum.

#9 jonpollak

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 11:55

Your posts graphic presentation is very nice.
Jp

#10 Alcibiades

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 12:14

There is not perfect way to distinguish between car, team and driver in evaluating F1 performance. Thats why we debate so much. This is better than most at getting us all to stand back and evaluate their seasons. I don't agree with all but do mostly think is shows what sort of season they had. Well done.


#11 Alcibiades

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 12:15

What about Hamilton. Was he not another victim in Brazil?


#12 mnmracer

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 12:21

What about Hamilton. Was he not another victim in Brazil?

Oops, dropped off at the end there.
Thanks for the reminder :)

#13 2ms

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 12:45

Where's Raikkonen? If I'm not mistaken, he would have looked the best overall if judged in this manner. Would be interesting to see your rating.

#14 Rikhart

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 12:54

Where's Raikkonen? If I'm not mistaken, he would have looked the best overall if judged in this manner. Would be interesting to see your rating.


Indeed, his only fault was being understandably rusty in the first half of the season, especially in qualy.

#15 mnmracer

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 13:15

I'll add Kimi in a bit.

#16 seahawk

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 13:23

Another pointless what if thread which will just explode. Just the "Crash" for Alonso in Japan can be discussed to death, same wit hthe Hamilton Maldonado collision. Same with the Alonso crash in Moaco.

Edited by seahawk, 14 January 2013 - 13:25.


#17 matthewf1

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 13:30

Another pointless thread. The only person who said they had a perfect season is Alonso, about himself.

#18 Rikhart

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 13:37

Another pointless thread. The only person who said they had a perfect season is Alonso, about himself.


You havent been to these forums much lately, have you? :p

#19 mnmracer

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 13:37

Kimi added for those who do not waste their time complaining how this is of no interest to them and can't understand why others would be.

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#20 boldhakka

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 13:37

Thanks for the work put into the original post, it's always instructive when these things are put into perspective next to each other. Ignore the people calling this pointless.

#21 bub

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 13:49

Thanks for the work put into the original post, it's always instructive when these things are put into perspective next to each other. Ignore the people calling this pointless.


Those posts are kinda pointless anyway.

#22 Imperial

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 14:04

I wholeheartedly agree that arguably the top 4 drivers of 2012 happened to also be those who finished in positions 1 to 4 in the championship.

#23 seahawk

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 14:07

Well it is pointless if the criteria is different for each driver.

Alonso survived the "crash" in Monaco as did Kimi survive his contact with Alonso in Japan, yet the Monaco crash is listed as a fault by Alonso, but the Japan contact is not listed for Kimi.

Vettel gets a crash for the Senna incident, yet Hamilton is the victim in the Maldonado incident.


#24 mnmracer

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 14:13

Well it is pointless if the criteria is different for each driver.

Alonso survived the "crash" in Monaco as did Kimi survive his contact with Alonso in Japan, yet the Monaco crash is listed as a fault by Alonso, but the Japan contact is not listed for Kimi.

Monaco crash was a fault by Alonso, he was just lucky not to be affected; shows a 'not perfect'.
Kimi was not at fault in Japan, nor was he affected; no mark necessary as it didn't affect him.

Vettel gets a crash for the Senna incident, yet Hamilton is the victim in the Maldonado incident.

That one is debatable, I agree.
Personally I agree it's bad luck, as Senna was invisible to Vettel, but most drivers do tend to leave a little more space in the opening laps.

#25 2ms

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 15:11

I just wanted to point out that Raikkonen had major hydraulic/differential problems in Canada and steering problems in Monaco, along with KERs problems in another race which I can't remember. The KERs may have been small, but I think Canada and Monaco it might not be fair to say that he was outperformed by his teammate, as apparently his teammate had a dramatically better performing car.

#26 mnmracer

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 15:14

I just wanted to point out that Raikkonen had major hydraulic/differential problems in Canada and steering problems in Monaco, along with KERs problems in another race which I can't remember. The KERs may have been small, but I think Canada and Monaco it might not be fair to say that he was outperformed by his teammate, as apparently his teammate had a dramatically better performing car.

I can't find any on that first-hand, but if you can provide some links I'll be happy to include that.

#27 seahawk

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 16:12

Monaco crash was a fault by Alonso, he was just lucky not to be affected; shows a 'not perfect'.
Kimi was not at fault in Japan, nor was he affected; no mark necessary as it didn't affect him.


There I disagree. Kimi sliced Alonso´s rear tire with his front wing. Both driver could have avoided the contact and Kimi was lucky that the contact did not damage his FW. I think most collisions always have 2 drivers who could have avoided the collision. Obvious things like the Spa crash at the start aside. So imho in such cases it should be "collision" with another driver in your list, not "crash" or "victim".

#28 joshb

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 16:18

No-one will ever be perfect, but some get closer than others and some get nearer more often.

#29 mnmracer

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 16:19

There I disagree. Kimi sliced Alonso´s rear tire with his front wing. Both driver could have avoided the contact and Kimi was lucky that the contact did not damage his FW. I think most collisions always have 2 drivers who could have avoided the collision. Obvious things like the Spa crash at the start aside. So imho in such cases it should be "collision" with another driver in your list, not "crash" or "victim".

It's been talked to death, but if the success of your action requires another driver to move or brake, you're the one at fault.
Either way, the main point of this thread is to show that even the best this year made mistakes.

Edited by mnmracer, 14 January 2013 - 16:23.


#30 Alx09

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 16:19

performance: outperformed by Button, who won the race in Australia, 4 seconds ahead of Hamilton in 3rd.
performance: outperformed by Button, who despite a bad pitstop finished second, 6 seconds ahead of Hamilton in 3rd.
performance: outperformed by Button, who qualified ahead and showed better race pace in Germany.
performance: outperformed by Button, who qualified ahead and was untouchable in Belgium.
performance: outperformed by Button, who finished 3rd in Japan, 19 seconds ahead of Hamilton in 4th.


1. Australia: Bad tactics by McLaren (bad pit stop too? Can't remember), stuck in traffic, bad luck with safety car. Same pace as Button.
2. Next one, which race is this you are talking about?
3. Germany: Lewis had a puncture but clearly had the pace, when he unlapped himself from Vettel. Puncture, not a performance issue.
4. Spa: Ran a clearly much slower wing screwing up what could have been an easy win for Lewis. Having wrong wing + taken out by Grosjean first corner. Not a performance issue.
5. Japan: Lewis drove with a broken roll-bar/broken springs or whatever it was, affecting his balance heavily both through qualifying and race. Broken car, not a performance issue.

Lewis has not put a foot wrong this season (I've followed him very closely). The only thing he can be half-blamed for is the wing choice in Spa, which he, together with his engineers, chose.

Edited by Alx09, 14 January 2013 - 16:42.


#31 Jovanotti

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 16:26

There I disagree. Kimi sliced Alonso´s rear tire with his front wing.

By that logic, Hamilton would be partly at fault for the Grosjean-mess at Spa, because he should've backed out when Romain clearly was in front of him. Räikkönen even went on the grass trying to avoid the contact. Alonso should've been a bit more careful, especially considering the WDC situation he was in. Ultimately, that was the move that made him lose the championship if you want.

#32 robefc

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 16:32

1. Australia: Bad tactics by McLaren, bad luck with safety car. Same pace as Button.
2. Next one, which race is this you are talking about?
3. Germany: Lewis had a puncture but clearly had the pace, when he unlapped himself from Vettel. Puncture, not a performance issue.
4. Spa: Ran a clearly much slower wing screwing up what could have been an easy win for Lewis. Having wrong wing + taken out by Grosjean first corner. Not a performance issue.
5. Japan: Lewis drove with a broken roll-bar/broken springs or whatever it was, affecting his balance heavily both through qualifying and race. Broken car, not a performance issue.

Lewis has not put a foot wrong this season (I've followed him very closely). The only thing he can be half-blamed for is the wing choice in Spa, which he, together with his engineers, chose.


He was outpaced in oz.
Second race is china, which is a little unfair because of the gearbox penalty but JB was still better in the race, albeit I think LH would have finished ahead without the penalty.
Germany JB was ahead when lewis had the puncture and he was party to the set up decision in Spa.
Japan is a bit more complicated.

I'm pretty sure Webber finished ahead of vettel more than 3 times so I'm confused about that without looking into it further.

Lewis has the highest benchmark here, Kimi and Alonso much easier benchmarks.

Edited by robefc, 14 January 2013 - 16:34.


#33 mnmracer

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 16:49

1. Australia: Bad tactics by McLaren (bad pit stop too? Can't remember), stuck in traffic, bad luck with safety car. Same pace as Button.
2. Next one, which race is this you are talking about?
3. Germany: Lewis had a puncture but clearly had the pace, when he unlapped himself from Vettel. Puncture, not a performance issue.
4. Spa: Ran a clearly much slower wing screwing up what could have been an easy win for Lewis. Having wrong wing + taken out by Grosjean first corner. Not a performance issue.
5. Japan: Lewis drove with a broken roll-bar/broken springs or whatever it was, affecting his balance heavily both through qualifying and race. Broken car, not a performance issue.

Lewis has not put a foot wrong this season (I've followed him very closely). The only thing he can be half-blamed for is the wing choice in Spa, which he, together with his engineers, chose.

1. He was already clearly beaten by Button before any bad tactics came into play. Without the safety car, Vettel would have jumped him anyway.
2. China. Again, looking at race pace, and considering Button had a bad pitstop, he finished behind Button fair and square.
3. Lewis was outqualified, and Button had better race pace anyway.
4. Vettel was also behind Webber in China and Monaco because of set-up. That is a driver's own decision. We're not excusing Sebastian, we're not excusing Lewis.
5. I believe the rollbar came into play when Button already had him cleanly beaten. If you provide a link otherwise, I'll be happy to consider.

Edited by mnmracer, 14 January 2013 - 16:53.


#34 matthewf1

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 16:55

Note to mods - driver threads were banned due to bias and slagging off; this thread is rapidly turning in to the replacement. The way I see it:

Vettel 281
Alonso 278
Raikkonen 207
Hamilton 190

Please close this thread, it is painful reading.

#35 Alx09

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 16:58

2. China. Again, looking at race pace, and considering Button had a bad pitstop, he finished behind Button fair and square.

Would've finished ahead of Button without gearbox penality.

3. Lewis was outqualified, and Button had better race pace anyway.

Both McLarens were slow at the start of the race and struggling due to the way the car was setup. When fuel loads decreased, the car got faster in relation to others. Lewis got puncture early on in the race, unlapped himself from Vettel later on and clearly had as good if not better pace than Button. I'm sure he would have passed Button without the puncture.

4. Vettel was also behind Webber in China and Monaco because of set-up. That is a driver's own decision. We're not excusing Sebastian, we're not excusing Lewis.

Lewis was taken out in the first corner. How is that being "outperformed"?

How come Alonso is listed as "victim" in the Spa crash, and Lewis is "outperformed" and "victim"? They were taken out by the same guy in the same crash, and Lewis had shown none of the pace he could've had in the race.

5. I believe the rollbar came into play when Button already had him cleanly beaten. If you provide a link otherwise, I'll be happy to consider.

It was a broken rear damper failure and he had it through the whole race and qualy. McLaren first found out after the race. Here is one link.

Edited by Alx09, 14 January 2013 - 17:06.


#36 Baddoer

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 17:00

Great news everyone: Vettel have fans.

Actually, here they are:
Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

His best one:
Posted Image

Edited by Baddoer, 14 January 2013 - 17:05.


#37 PretentiousBread

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 17:05

I was interested in this but reading the summations of each driver's season there are plenty of omissions and innaccuracies. The OP didn't follow the season in great enough detail to warrant this type of analysis.

#38 D.M.N.

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 17:07

This isn't heading anywhere constructive.