51 replies to this topic

[Ibsey]

Hi all,
I am wondering if someone might be able to help me? I am considering finally taking the jump from PS3 racing games like GT5 & F1 2011 to PC racing sims like rfactor & rfactor 2 etc. However I am massively confused as to whether or not this would be the right move especially since the PS4 / Xbox 720 / Steam Box & another next gen console (the name of which I have forgotten) are said to be coming out soon.

I am currently thinking of getting an entry gaming level PC to test the water with PC racing sims. Thereby giving me time to see how things pan out with the next gen consoles like the PS4. The PC I am currently considering buying is a AMD A4 3300 2.5 GHz, with a Radeon HD 6410D & 4GB RAM for around £150 (i’m in the UK). As I have been advised that this is a good value entry level gaming machine. Therefore I wondered if someone could kindly advise me whether this would be a good move? Or alternatively anyone know / think whether the next gen consoles like the PS4 etc won’t be too good for racing games / sims. Therefore it would just be better the save the money I would have spent on them (between £300 to £500 I believe). And instead put that into getting a higher spec PC instead?

Although I love racing games (my favs being GT5 / F12011 & GP4) Please be aware I am new to the world of recent PC racing sims like rFactor 2 or iRacing. So committing to spending a lot for a high spec PC capable of running those games seems a bit of a gamble? Whereas the next gen consoles, to my mind at least, seem to be a bit of a safer bet.

Also would the above PC specs run rfactor or rfactor 2 OK? As those two games would be the main reason for me buying a half decent PC at the moment. If it would be able to run rFactor & rFactor 2 does anyone know how well it may run with these specs? For instance might it be smooth & fast enough to enjoy a decent online experience. Also would I be able to run 80’s & 90’s F1 cars & tracks mods in at least medium detail & framerate? (apologies, however I did try looking all of this on google with no luck). If for instance I wanted to upgrade it to also run iRacing at a latter date (assuming this PC wouldn’t be able to run it currently). Might that also be a fairly easy thing to do?


Also, would this be the best value PC for the above stated requirements (i.e running rFactor 1 & 2 in at least medium detail / FPS...with the possibility of upgrading to run iRacing in future). Or would it just be better to get a higher spec / more expensive PC as stated earlier? Although I am willing to spend as much as is necessary for a new PC, so money is not the limiting factor as such. My main concern is ensuring I get the best value PC. So I would feel uneasy about spending say an extra £100 just to get slightly better graphics, if the actually game play was no different. However in the case that spending a bit more on a PC did result in driving physics that were massively superior, then I might be sold.

Finally what would one have roughly spend on a gaming PC today to complete with the spec of the Xbox 720 & PS4?

Here’s the apparent specs of the PS4;

And here’s the appetent specs of the Xbox 720;

Although I don’t know how accurate these both are? But am I correct in thinking that it is not really worth it for me to match these specs for my next computer, since at this stage my main requirement is just to play rFactor 1 & 2 decently to see if PC racing sims are for me? (maybe with the possibility of upgrading for future racing sims). I hope I am not asking too much here & any advice would be greatly appreciated from a very confused bloke. Many Thanks.

Edited by Ibsey, 03 February 2013 - 09:42.

[Linus27]

Hi,

I have played PC racing sims for around 20 years or so. Started on Revs back in the BBC days and onto things like GP1 - 4. Then naturally onto GPL, GTR, GT Legends, Rfactor, Race 07, Nascar 2003 and finally Rfactor 2 and Iracing. I've won a few online championships in GPL, GT Legends, Rfactor etc and had a real blast. However, what the consoles are offering these days with GT5, Forza and F1 2012 is right up there, especially when played with a Logitech or Fanatec wheel.

In fact I find the console racing games so good that these days I enjoy playing them more than I have Iracing and Rfactor 2. I suspect that the next gen consoles will be a massive step up again but it won't be for a few more years until the great next Gran Turismo or Forza comes out as developers really get to grips with what the consoles can do. Take for example the PS3 was launched in Nov 2006 yet GT5 did not come out until Nov 2010. The Xbox 360 was launched in Nov 2005 and Forza 2 came out in May 2007 which were soon followed by Forza 3 and 4.

So, for me, I am going the other way and leaning more towards consoles for my racing fix. This is partly because the console games give me the fix I am after. Great graphics, great sound, great online play, great wheel support as well as being technical enough where I can fiddle with setups that make a difference to the way the car handles. Also the great track choices like Motegi, Sebring, Le Mans, Spa, Monza, Sears Point etc as well as the full F1 calendar in road cars, GT cars, rally spec cars, classic cars etc with rain and atmosphere. Plus, long gone are the days or arcade physics for console racing games like Forza and Gran Turismo. Ok, they won't touch Iracing and Rfactor in the close details when simulating physics but the basics are very much there and I can say that considering I do track days in my Lotus Elise and Civic Type R.

So what I am trying to say in my big waffle is it really does depend on what you are looking for in PC sim racing. It has stalled over the last few years and is morphing into a new breed. Manufacturers were churning out sims but now its very limited with only Iracing, rfactor 2, Project Cars and Assetto Corsa. Iracing is still developing and is many many years away from having all the spit and polish that consoles games have like car choices, rain, graphics and sounds. It is as some say king in the physics department but for me, being european, I find the whole experience rather bland as there is very little in terms of european cars. The online play is also excellent but you do have to pay for it and if thats not your cup of tea then hot lapping can become boring. Rfactor 2 is also very good but again, it is very much in beta stage. Some of the cars and track look great and handle well but other are truely appauling. It is probably the most complete in what it is going to offer but its a long way off from getting there. Project cars I have not tried and it looks great but some say the physics are very arcade. Assetto Corsa looks very promising but at the moment nobody knows how good it is.

Personally, I would wait a little and see how things pan out as the next gen consoles are about to be announced. When you have that info, you can then think about if you want to wait or spend the money of a PC rig.

[Gold]

I would never, ever use a console for sim racing.

How are you going to accurately model the clutch grind in rf using GTM?

How are you going to use accurate suspension ffb using realfeel on a console, how are you going to accurately model steering column forces (depending on many criteria) dynamically using Leo FFB on a console?

All proper sim mods provide you with these values to use with the mod. On a console there is no such realism.

On a PC you can have a perfect F40 mod made by people who own the car:

http://www.premiersi...i_f40/Index.htm


Or you can have a perfect handling mod of a Jordan 191 using the exact slip angles the Goodyears had in 1991, or use modern Avon tires for historic events with (different slip angles) if you prefer.


The realism in racing sims for PC's is immense. Consoles are very arcade in comparison for the simple reason that everything you run on a console is mass market. You will never, ever be able to run a 1979 F1 grid (with all variants of all cars that raced that year), on a console, ever. Or 1982, or 84, 85, 86, 88, 89, 91, 1968, 76, etc.

EDIT: A pc to run the latest in sim racing will cost you no more than $600 and will be upgradable in parts unlike a console. A G27 will cost 100$ and a playseat probably $200, less second hand.

Edited by Gold, 04 February 2013 - 01:39.

[The Kanisteri]

Gold,

It's buyers market. They could do simulators with consoles which would be very very accurate, but because that...majority of players wouldn''t buy them because playing/driving is too hard. No money to gain, no worth to make such sims/games.

Consoles anyway have a platform which has it's performance under it plastic case. It's game developers responsibility to get all possible out of it. You don't need to upgrade your graphic cards, soundcards, etc. hardware and software all the time. Downside is, you don't get skilled enthusiast amateurs to do "mods" on these closed systems/games.

PC world on the otherhand is wild jungle. Yes, you can have very good platform for accurate simulation about anything when you invest lot of money and get exactly right components so you won't hit bottle neck...for now.
Next year your PC system might be obsolete or new Windows version prevents you to play your beloved simulation anymore.

Sony's Playstation 2 was released 1999 and manufacturing of it came to end in 2013. By power, it has been obsolete several years now, but it had stability of performance for 14 years, what Personal Computers won't reach even in dreams nowadays. in 1999 and 2012 bought PS2 game runs well with any PS2. Cannot say same about PC game - Some 2012 made games are already obsolete for Windows 8 computers...

I have GT Legends on my shelv for pc. When I bought it, I soon noticed computer I had was having difficulties to deal with this game though it matched recommended hardware requirements. I liked game very much till got into events where I had to adjust game settings to lowest details possible and even then it was unplayable slide show. Couple years passed and I purchased new computer with 64 bit Windows 7.
After lot of tweaking I got the game run with Win 7 without lot of crashes but anyway.... Worst part was copyprotection software was obsolete, it's support was discontinued and there was no way to legally play that game anymore.
Only option was to get cracked no-dvd patch for it.

And last thing Gold,

I don't believe a word you say owners of Ferrari F40 will do perfect model for computer simulation by themselves. If I could afford to keep and own F40, last thing I like to do is to hang out with bunch of simulator nerds.

[Nemo1965]

Thread starter

As long as consoles don't offer you the chance for modding, I would never switch from pc to consoles. Consoles will always offer better graphics, but now I have got rFactor running on my Mac, I don't think I am going to buy another racing game for my xbox... The funny thing on my Mac the modding is easier than on the pc.

I can drive F1 cars from 1967 tot 2012, I can drive Porsche 917's, all with one program and one investment of a lousy 40 bucks or so...

At the moment (again) I am racing the F1 1991 mod by FSR, and because I am not quite a computer idiot, I've found a way of very simply changing cars - within a running championship! So I started the season in a Lotus, tried a Jordan and now I am driving the very driveable Dallara Ferrari.

The moment a console game offers that kind of freedom, I may be tempted again. But not before.

Edited by Nemo1965, 04 February 2013 - 13:30.

[Peat]

There is definitely a market for a full-blown sim on consoles. The number of people i know who have been mightily impressed with rF & iRacing, only to say "meh, i'd need a new PC for a start and it all seems too complicated." and thus never go any further.

It's strokes for folks OP. Try and sample a few if you can. Personally, the only console based games i have tried and been impressed by were GT2 (back in the day - they got worse after that) and Forza 2 (a few years back aswell). The Codemaster F1 titles are just ..... yuk. I have a PS3 which makes a very good dust-collector.

As for PC's, i can run iRacing pretty well on a machine i built 3 years ago. (Quad core, 1gb gfx, 8gb RAM...The sort of spec you can buy off the shelf reasonably now)

[Ibsey]

Thanks for all the help so far guys, some very interesting comments so far. Please keep them coming.

One of the many PC's I have been seriously considering purchasing is of a similar spec to what Peat suggested. However there are many reasons preventing me from buying a gaming PC at the moment. Such as;

1. Trying to work out how good racing games / sims might be on the next gen consoles like the xbox 720 & ps4? I recently read a very interesting article, where a former staff memeber of Bizarre Studios said:

"New physics engines, improved graphics, racing games always do well when a new console comes out“Moving from PGR2 to PGR3, I remember when we did the PGR3 launch, we invited all you journalist guys and we were playing it. We said, ‘and now we’re going to an in-car view,’ and it was a fully-modeled Ferrari dashboard and there was an intake of breath from all these cynical journalists. That would’ve been impossible on the previous hardware.” So with the next hardware we should be able to create features with another level of immersion and quality,” he continued. “We’re talking about simulation racers here – this game is a completely different racing experience but even so, there’s stuff we can do with this generation that we couldn’t before, and with the next we can make everything that bit more awesome. Racing games need that.”

The article in full can be read here;
http://attackofthefa...rn-racing-game/

Sure the next gen consoles best 'sims', might still fall sure of the best that a PC has to offer then. But perhaps, consoles may prove to be better value. For instance they may be able to offer 90% of the racing sim thrills at only 50% of the cost. Then there is the thought that then next gen consoles may have independent game developers releasing hardcore racing sims or even its own modding community on things like the PSN & xbox live thingy etc.

2. Are future PC racing sims in trouble? As i've also read this;

"the sales of desktops and even laptops have been in decline for several years now. now the in thing are notebooks and tablets.
people have gone to smaller sizes and tend to take them everwhere they go. this has had a bad side effect.
AMD is almost bankrupt and sources are saying they don`t see how they can survive another 2 years.
Intel has decided to stop making replaceable cpu`s and go away from the ball socket form factor and have adopted the soldered form factor..
the next generation of cpu`s will be called Haswell and are soldered directly to the motherboards. they will be limited to 3.5GHz and four cores only.
this means that there will be much less choice for the consumer and at a higher cost to upgrade.
because of this the gaming industry is scrambling to build games dedicated to the console industry.
this means by by pc games and hello console games."

This is from a similar thread contained within post no. 37 in this forum; http://insidesimraci...xbox-720/page-2

3. The cost & time factor.

Is it worth it to pay £400 plus for slightly better physics? From other articles I have read on this subject, they do seem to agree with Linus27 thoughts that the basic physics are very much there in modern day console racers like GT5 etc. Especially with a decent steering wheel. In one article I read, someone tested the driving physics of a Mazda MX5 at Laguna Seca in iRacing. And compared that to the driving physics of the same car & track in GT5. IIRC what the guy found was that in GT5 once you started using the poorer tyres (i.e. racing hard tyres on GT5 as apose to slicks) then the driving physics become more & more comparable with iRacing. Even if the laptimes were still a bit off.

I'm not trying to suggest that GT5 is a match for iRacing in terms of physics. Its just with all the extra expensive for a new PC and the complication & hassle of setting up sims & getting the right mods / drivers all to work correctly etc. If there is only a little difference in physics as have been suggested. Then at the moment it hardly seems worth it. Especially since GT5 is such a massive game that despite me playing it solidly ever since it came out in Nov 2010. there is still loads of it I have still yet to try. Also I am still very much enjoying racing on F1 2011 (I don't mind that the physics are not as great as say GT5 since I have been having some fantastic on track battles with KERS & DRS or where the SC or weather has screwed up my strategy so I've had to fight my way to the front the hard way). Also I heard Project CARS is also coming out on consoles & then there are a loads of others to try (i.e. Dirt 3 / WRC 3) etc. So that might keep my PS3 & G25 steering wheel busy for 2013.

A bit like Linus, I grew up playing the GP series on PC's (especially GP4) as I had some amazingly intensive wet/dry races on it. However I was put off going down the PC sim route then, because GP4 started crashing during the middle of races. Being a non IT person, it took me a while to fix the problem. Also currently I don't know how much time I will have for updating PC parts etc.

Basically if the physics difference between GT5 & PC sims like say rFactor is sort of the same difference between say GT5 & F1 2011. Then the extra cost & time involved in getting & maintaining a racing sim PC doesn't seem worth it to me. However if there is a bigger difference then that. Then I might be interested.

Apologies for the long post. I did have a few more concerns, however I will leave it at that for the time being. Just so you know the moment I am leaning more towards the idea of just getting a PC for around £200 mark that would play rFactor 1 & GTR etc. Just to test the water in PC racing sims. However things do change by the minute & I am VERY VERY tempted by the Quad core, Radeon HD 6670, 8gb RAM computer & jumping straight into rFactor 2 & the newer PC sims. But then I think of what I have said in points 1 to 3....& I am back to square 1 again.

Very confused so any help would very much be appreciated. Thanks.

Edited by Ibsey, 04 February 2013 - 20:02.

[Linus27]

I would never, ever use a console for sim racing.

How are you going to accurately model the clutch grind in rf using GTM?

How are you going to use accurate suspension ffb using realfeel on a console, how are you going to accurately model steering column forces (depending on many criteria) dynamically using Leo FFB on a console?

All proper sim mods provide you with these values to use with the mod. On a console there is no such realism.

On a PC you can have a perfect F40 mod made by people who own the car:

http://www.premiersi...i_f40/Index.htm


Or you can have a perfect handling mod of a Jordan 191 using the exact slip angles the Goodyears had in 1991, or use modern Avon tires for historic events with (different slip angles) if you prefer.


The realism in racing sims for PC's is immense. Consoles are very arcade in comparison for the simple reason that everything you run on a console is mass market. You will never, ever be able to run a 1979 F1 grid (with all variants of all cars that raced that year), on a console, ever. Or 1982, or 84, 85, 86, 88, 89, 91, 1968, 76, etc.

EDIT: A pc to run the latest in sim racing will cost you no more than $600 and will be upgradable in parts unlike a console. A G27 will cost 100$ and a playseat probably $200, less second hand.

The issue I have with the comments you make regarding accurate simulation of clutch grind, suspension ffb and steering column forces is yes, the numbers may well be being processed but the feedback being given back to the player will always be flawed because there is no physical contact between you as a driver, what the simulation is simulating and the input device being used. Your bum is not feeling the bumps in the road and your lower back is not feeling the forces generated as the car induces understeer and oversteer etc. It is only through your arms through the force feedback and your brain is filling in the blanks based on your own perception of what you think the simulation is doing. There are no physical tyres attached to a physical road giving accurate feedback to your input controller. You don't feel skids, aquaplanning, understeer etc through the pedals and your feet like you do in a real car. Its only through the input devise and your hands and arms and the biggest difference is you have no G forces or motion simulation being simulated and fed back to the player.

So its all very well saying these details are being simulated but the way they are fed back to the player is flawed. Even if the exact data is being used to generate slip angles for example, the way the player can react to this information is very limited based on the limited physical connection the player has with the simulation, i.e, through a basic input controller.

[Linus27]

Ibsey,

Based on all that you have said in your last post, I still think you should wait. Like I say, PC sims are going through a transition and will do for a few year. Iracing is a long way off from being amazing. Its very good physics wise but lacks the content, polish and features. Rfactor 2 is still way too buggy but to be honest is still in beta. Assetta Corsa is not even out yet. In a year or two, all three titles will be very different to what they are now and if you buy a PC now, then you may need to spend money again to keep up with their development and the mods that have been created. The new breed of consoles are not out yet and will take a year or two to settle with quality grade A games to come out. In the meantime, if you are still enjoying GT5 and F1 2012 then stick with them and see how the future pans out.

[SPBHM]

while the PS4 and next Xbox are probably going to be released this year, I would expect any new GT or Forza to take a few more years to be released, so you are going to be limited to Forza 4 or GT5...

PC sim racing is a different world compared to Gran Turismo...
if you want more advanced physics and an ever evolving game, PC is the right way to go, also if you enjoy more serious online racing I think there is no comparison... also you can customize so much further and improve the experience, with multiple screens and devices...

on the lower end it's also far from expensive, any basic gaming PC should be sufficient for Iracing with high settings (a sub $100 graphics card, and $100 CPU plus the other parts), and compared to the consoles you can use a much wider variety of input devices and wheels,

but you need know what you want, Iracing or Rfactor have very little in common with the Gran Turismo or F1 2012 or the console experience in general, it's a lot less.. polished and user friendly.


relative to the Xbox 360, I expect the new consoles to be a lot less impressive than the 360 was back in 2005 compared to a PC...
also the PC prospects for racing games looks pretty good for the next few years...

[Gold]

@nemo1965: I actually was in the team that made 1991 HE.

Yes the forces are approximations but no you dont just feel forces through the steering ffb. For a little money you can wire up a buttkicker 2.0 or for a lot of money use frex and simcon motion. Even the buttkicker can be modded to transfer forces in realfeel.ini (steering column) to simulate over and understeer to the playseat. The chassis ffb variables number over 200.

On the console you will never be able to run say, accurate (all iterations throughout the year of) MP4/6 down to accurate wheel weights and gearbox wet and dry weights, porpoising characteristing, resonance, gearbox internals (e.g. Brazil 1991), holding in gear or chassis dynamics. Ever.

Simply because consoles are mass market. The best you'll get is Codemasters F1 20** which is catered in realism for their target market of 14 year olds. Turn abs off and as soon as you oversteer and spin: just brake hard and the car magically rights itself... An arcade feel good feature (which is not removeable on any driving modes) which all the 13 year olds SWEAR is realistic F1 car behaviour on those forums. Sure.

We've run copa america sims in rF with Barrichello, who surprisingly is a sim junkie.

We've designed 1991 HE with input from Blundell and Ari. It's all just the start.
rF2 is coming out and the realism will go through the roof.

The first time I ran the old nurburgring in a 191 Jordan or a B191 using accurate realfeel and leoffb values on a playseat and G27 with accurate shifting and heel and toe grind on a 50 inch screen it was an indescribable experience.

In terms of consoles or pc for me there is no choice, even the Red Bull sim the team uses is rf driver in the loop version with pt winsim to run the plugins and xsim to run the hydraulics.

Youtube webber red bull sim monaco and you'll notice the track is Frank Alexandre's Monaco 1.10 track (marlboro ads and all) that you can simply download off nogrip.



Notice the nice Marlboro ads on this official Red Bull video.

Here's the track (free obviously):

http://www.rfactorce...I... New Layout

Edit: and ps I forgot to add all of these mods are free because they are made by enthousiasts for enthousiasts.

Edit2: for the other guy regarding the F40 sim, yes those guys actually have an F40, check their site where they put it on the scales to get accurate corner weights on each wheel for the sim.

Edit3: One of the ways you can recognise a professional sim (or simmer) is by the way it's setup. A real sim is adjusted for the screen and setup. Notice how most games/sims have the tires in the middle of the screen? Completely weird wide angle (cinematic look), wrong POV, wrong horizon height, etc. No immersion. A real sim takes the screen size and considers it's frame to be a cardboard cutout. What the actual driver would see through that cardboard cutout sitting in the actual car, (i.e. the tips of the tires, etc) is the pov the sim should be set to, that is a 1:1 connection with the virtual sim. . That would change depending on your specific screen or setup or seating position. You can't do any of that on a console. You get what you are given.

Edited by Gold, 05 February 2013 - 10:00.

[Nemo1965]

@nemo1965: I actually was in the team that made 1991 HE.

Then you are responsible for the best mod I ever drove... it is even better than GP2 and GP4...

Back on topic: what really, really would be great if a console-company like Microsoft or Sony would allow modding... I know, know they want to develop games themselves and sell them... but imagine driving a version of GP Legends on the console...

[Ibsey]

Then you are responsible for the best mod I ever drove... it is even better than GP2 and GP4...

Back on topic: what really, really would be great if a console-company like Microsoft or Sony would allow modding... I know, know they want to develop games themselves and sell them... but imagine driving a version of GP Legends on the console...

Perhaps we should start a petition or something, demanding that console manufactures allow modding. Especially for the next gen consoles like the PS4 or xBox 720. I'm sure the likes of Mircosoft or Sony can find a way to make money off of modding themselves (i.e. like selling the modding software or something).

Anyway can anyone advise me whether a AMD A4 3300 2.5 GHz, with a Radeon HD 6410D & 4GB RAM would be able to run rFactor 2? I know the minimum specs for it are;

CPU: 2.4 GHz Intel Core 2 or 2.4 GHz AMD Athlon x2
Memory: 2 GB
Video Card: nVidia 8600 GT or ATI/AMD 3850
Video Memory: 256MB
Operating System: Microsoft Windows XP, Windows Vista, Windows 7
DirectX: 9.0c
Storage: 4 GB
Internet connection required.

So the question marks for me are whether the AMD A4 3300 2.5 GHz processor & the Radeon HD 6410D graphics card meets the minimum spec (been trying to find out online for the last few days with no luck & it is driving me CRAZY). If someone is able to help I would be extremely grateful.

@ Linus27. Thanks for your kind advice. I know you said I should wait & in an ideal world that would have been my choice also. However my last computer recently died on me (after 8 years of hard usage). And I do need to get a new one fairly soon (for work reasons & to record F1 races when the new season gets underway etc). So, as stated in my earlier post I am currently thinking of getting an entry gaming level PC. Thereby also giving me time to see how things pan out with the next gen consoles like the PS4 whenever GT6 or the new Forza games come out.

The PC I am currently considering buying is the AMD A4 3300 2.5 GHz, with a Radeon HD 6410D & 4GB RAM mentioned earlier. So I can to test the water with PC racing sims (like rFactor 1 & GTR2) & the mods. If possible I would also just like to test rFactor 2 on it whenever it is finished (I know it might not run too well, on that particular computer but as long as it runs then at least I can get a flavour of modern racing sims on the PC).

Then in a couple of years or so I will be better place to decide whether PC sims or whether the next gen consoles are for me. The way I see it, if PC sims are for me, then I will just sell this system & buy a high spec gaming machine. So any loss from selling this machine 2nd hand would be offset, as one would expect to get a much better machine for say £700 two years down the line than in comparison to today. So it does seem like the safest bet to me at least.

However if PC sims aren't for me, then I haven't really lost anything, since I needed a new computer anyway. Nor have a spent more than I might otherwise have done. However it would be extremely useful to know whether or not rFactor 2 would run on it (or at least help to where that info might be avaliable?). Thanks

Edited by Ibsey, 05 February 2013 - 16:08.

[mahelgel]

The PC I am currently considering buying is the AMD A4 3300 2.5 GHz, with a Radeon HD 6410D & 4GB RAM mentioned earlier. So I can to test the water with PC racing sims (like rFactor 1 & GTR2) & the mods. If possible I would also just like to test rFactor 2 on it whenever it is finished (I know it might not run too well, on that particular computer but as long as it runs then at least I can get a flavour of modern racing sims on the PC).

Ive run Rfactor2 on an AMD 1100t @ 3.8ghz on all cores (overclocked from 3.3 i think it was) and with an amd/ati 7870 gfxcard, and even with lowering the gfx settings, i got stutter. It shoudn't really be any though, so it might be some bug with the setup. That cpu/gfx combo ran iracing very neatly and most other sims/games very good. Could be Rfactor runs better on intel cpu or nvidia gfxcards, but i never bothered to google it much as i was planning on an upgrade anyway (needed a second computer).

Now i run an intel i7 cpu (3770k) with an nvidia 680gtx, and rfactor2 is very smooth (as is all other games/sims i've tried).

If you go the PC route, i would go for a intel cpu, and my experience is that the nvidia gfx cards of late have an egde over the amd/ati cards, atleast in the middle to high price range. That said, my AMD proved a lot of power-to-price ratio and the same goes for the amd gfxcard i had (HD7870), but in pure performance my new rig quite a bit better...

[Linus27]

@nemo1965: I actually was in the team that made 1991 HE.

Yes the forces are approximations but no you dont just feel forces through the steering ffb. For a little money you can wire up a buttkicker 2.0 or for a lot of money use frex and simcon motion. Even the buttkicker can be modded to transfer forces in realfeel.ini (steering column) to simulate over and understeer to the playseat. The chassis ffb variables number over 200.

On the console you will never be able to run say, accurate (all iterations throughout the year of) MP4/6 down to accurate wheel weights and gearbox wet and dry weights, porpoising characteristing, resonance, gearbox internals (e.g. Brazil 1991), holding in gear or chassis dynamics. Ever.

Simply because consoles are mass market. The best you'll get is Codemasters F1 20** which is catered in realism for their target market of 14 year olds. Turn abs off and as soon as you oversteer and spin: just brake hard and the car magically rights itself... An arcade feel good feature (which is not removeable on any driving modes) which all the 13 year olds SWEAR is realistic F1 car behaviour on those forums. Sure.

We've run copa america sims in rF with Barrichello, who surprisingly is a sim junkie.

We've designed 1991 HE with input from Blundell and Ari. It's all just the start.
rF2 is coming out and the realism will go through the roof.

The first time I ran the old nurburgring in a 191 Jordan or a B191 using accurate realfeel and leoffb values on a playseat and G27 with accurate shifting and heel and toe grind on a 50 inch screen it was an indescribable experience.

In terms of consoles or pc for me there is no choice, even the Red Bull sim the team uses is rf driver in the loop version with pt winsim to run the plugins and xsim to run the hydraulics.

Youtube webber red bull sim monaco and you'll notice the track is Frank Alexandre's Monaco 1.10 track (marlboro ads and all) that you can simply download off nogrip.



Notice the nice Marlboro ads on this official Red Bull video.

Here's the track (free obviously):

http://www.rfactorce...I... New Layout

Edit: and ps I forgot to add all of these mods are free because they are made by enthousiasts for enthousiasts.

Edit2: for the other guy regarding the F40 sim, yes those guys actually have an F40, check their site where they put it on the scales to get accurate corner weights on each wheel for the sim.

Edit3: One of the ways you can recognise a professional sim (or simmer) is by the way it's setup. A real sim is adjusted for the screen and setup. Notice how most games/sims have the tires in the middle of the screen? Completely weird wide angle (cinematic look), wrong POV, wrong horizon height, etc. No immersion. A real sim takes the screen size and considers it's frame to be a cardboard cutout. What the actual driver would see through that cardboard cutout sitting in the actual car, (i.e. the tips of the tires, etc) is the pov the sim should be set to, that is a 1:1 connection with the virtual sim. . That would change depending on your specific screen or setup or seating position. You can't do any of that on a console. You get what you are given.

This I agree with but what you have outlined is very far removed from what the original poster was looking for and willing to spend. The level of setup you have highlighted I agree is taking it much further than most sim racers use but it will give great detail and feedback to the player despite still being limited in places. I have also used the Renault F1 sim and they also use Rfactor. Rubens and Felipe both race together in the Brazilian Touring car mod based on Rfactor as well as the STCC2 addon for Race 07. I was also involved in the Caterham mod for Rfactor which was what the realfeel plugin was first used in (Kangerloosh) and worked with Caterham Cup drivers to simulate as much realism as possible.

However, I still stand by the point I made that what certain games on consoles are doing, GT5 and Forza (I don't include Codemasters F1 games as they are arcade games) these days has taken a massive step up in terms of where PC sims were. Remember GPL, at the time, the most realistic hailed sim on the market. I've raced Montoya and Villeneuve online in that and won an online champioship and it really is superb but even that does not simulate tyre wear or heat. Something that Forza does very well.

Based on what the original poster was asking, I did not get the impresion he was going to go down the route of spending huge amounts of cash for the most accurate PC based simulation. Instead he was curious to what sims could offer in relation to his enjoyment of GT5 and F1 2012 and would a budget PC satisfy his curiosity of titles such as Rfactor. There is no way a budget PC will run RF2 at a acceptable level which is why I stand by what I say and that he should hold fire and see what the new generation of consoles bring and how sims like Iracing and Rfactor 2 develop. Personally I think Iracing is about 5 years out of date and Rfactor 2 is far from ready and has some serious bugs. I think the future is looking great for both consoles and PC sims. Off course PC sims will always be that much better but you do have to pay for it in hardware but that investment will give you more a much great and longer gaming experience.

[Nemo1965]

Regarding if your next pc is ready or not for rFactor 2... I am slowly starting to believe that computer graphics (speed) is as difficult as fluid dynamics... Pc's (even Macs) are so idiotic complex that even pretty straight calculations (processorspeed, work-memory, RAM, ladieladielaladialadaaa) can give you big, big suprises.

I am not a computerexpert at all, but I do most of the website-connected education stuff for the school I work for. The stuff that throws the graphics of the macs we use in a fit... unbelievable little programs. Imagine what a Direct X thingie can do...

My suggestion: in these hard, dark times computer-resellers should be willing to put a little bit extra effort in selling a pc. Why don't you ask them to set up a rig, and come with a rFactor dvd to their shop? And tell them: 'If this runs perfectly, you will get my dollars.'

[Linus27]

Perhaps we should start a petition or something, demanding that console manufactures allow modding. Especially for the next gen consoles like the PS4 or xBox 720. I'm sure the likes of Mircosoft or Sony can find a way to make money off of modding themselves (i.e. like selling the modding software or something).

Anyway can anyone advise me whether a AMD A4 3300 2.5 GHz, with a Radeon HD 6410D & 4GB RAM would be able to run rFactor 2? I know the minimum specs for it are;

CPU: 2.4 GHz Intel Core 2 or 2.4 GHz AMD Athlon x2
Memory: 2 GB
Video Card: nVidia 8600 GT or ATI/AMD 3850
Video Memory: 256MB
Operating System: Microsoft Windows XP, Windows Vista, Windows 7
DirectX: 9.0c
Storage: 4 GB
Internet connection required.

So the question marks for me are whether the AMD A4 3300 2.5 GHz processor & the Radeon HD 6410D graphics card meets the minimum spec (been trying to find out online for the last few days with no luck & it is driving me CRAZY). If someone is able to help I would be extremely grateful.

@ Linus27. Thanks for your kind advice. I know you said I should wait & in an ideal world that would have been my choice also. However my last computer recently died on me (after 8 years of hard usage). And I do need to get a new one fairly soon (for work reasons & to record F1 races when the new season gets underway etc). So, as stated in my earlier post I am currently thinking of getting an entry gaming level PC. Thereby also giving me time to see how things pan out with the next gen consoles like the PS4 whenever GT6 or the new Forza games come out.

The PC I am currently considering buying is the AMD A4 3300 2.5 GHz, with a Radeon HD 6410D & 4GB RAM mentioned earlier. So I can to test the water with PC racing sims (like rFactor 1 & GTR2) & the mods. If possible I would also just like to test rFactor 2 on it whenever it is finished (I know it might not run too well, on that particular computer but as long as it runs then at least I can get a flavour of modern racing sims on the PC).

Then in a couple of years or so I will be better place to decide whether PC sims or whether the next gen consoles are for me. The way I see it, if PC sims are for me, then I will just sell this system & buy a high spec gaming machine. So any loss from selling this machine 2nd hand would be offset, as one would expect to get a much better machine for say £700 two years down the line than in comparison to today. So it does seem like the safest bet to me at least.

However if PC sims aren't for me, then I haven't really lost anything, since I needed a new computer anyway. Nor have a spent more than I might otherwise have done. However it would be extremely useful to know whether or not rFactor 2 would run on it (or at least help to where that info might be avaliable?). Thanks

You are welcome. If all you are going to run is GTR2 and Rfactor 1 then a lower spec machine will be fine. Don't forget to get GT Legends if you like 60's and 70's touring cars. Personally I find it one of the best sims that came out around the Rfactor, Race 07, GTR2 period. It can be had on Steam pretty cheap now I think. Also for Rfactor, make sure you get the Virtual LM tracks (Le Mans, Sebring and Mid Ohio) as they are simply the best tracks ever made. Race 07 I actually enjoy but mostly the STCC add ons.

Keep us updated on how you get on and your thoughts.

[Linus27]

Regarding if your next pc is ready or not for rFactor 2... I am slowly starting to believe that computer graphics (speed) is as difficult as fluid dynamics... Pc's (even Macs) are so idiotic complex that even pretty straight calculations (processorspeed, work-memory, RAM, ladieladielaladialadaaa) can give you big, big suprises.

I am not a computerexpert at all, but I do most of the website-connected education stuff for the school I work for. The stuff that throws the graphics of the macs we use in a fit... unbelievable little programs. Imagine what a Direct X thingie can do...

My suggestion: in these hard, dark times computer-resellers should be willing to put a little bit extra effort in selling a pc. Why don't you ask them to set up a rig, and come with a rFactor dvd to their shop? And tell them: 'If this runs perfectly, you will get my dollars.'

The difficult thing with that is there are so many variables that 5 PC's will run Rfactor and 5 PC's will have issues and it can all be down to something so minor or simple like soundcard drivers, graphics card drivers or BIOS settings. A bit of fiddling will get it working but unless you know what you are doing, you could be there all day. Then at the end of the day, you could find out that Rfactor does not like the CPU that a certain PC is using and without trawling through all the forums, it could take you hours to find that out. Running a game on a PC is very different to chucking a game in a console and firing it up.

[Red17]

As someone who went from Pole Position on the Spectrum to iRacing on Windows Vista I can tell you that my opinion is worth only if you are looking at experiences.
You are the one who has to decide what sort of games you want or appeal to you.
I have played many racing games, simulation and arcadish titles and in both cases had fun.

The only 2 issues with consoles is that:
- yet to be released consoles tend to make a lot of promisses, don't rush to buy a console just because it's developer has said they are considering a Rfactor port or talking to the developers of iRacing. Im still waiting for the Daytona USA port for the Sega 32X.
- the offer may fall short of expectations. As written above, consoles tend to appeal to a more mass market, players who probably don't want to spend time adjusting settings or perfecting racing lines, so, even if the title is the best in the platform it may still feel not up to your standards.

The best bet, as weird as it may sound is to keep and open mind to both worlds, the PC tends to lack titles like Gran Turismo, but makes it up with pure simulators. Consoles offer some of the best action driving titles out there but can't seem to offer anything beyond Codesmasters racers.

[Linus27]

As someone who went from Pole Position on the Spectrum to iRacing on Windows Vista I can tell you that my opinion is worth only if you are looking at experiences.
You are the one who has to decide what sort of games you want or appeal to you.
I have played many racing games, simulation and arcadish titles and in both cases had fun.

The only 2 issues with consoles is that:
- yet to be released consoles tend to make a lot of promisses, don't rush to buy a console just because it's developer has said they are considering a Rfactor port or talking to the developers of iRacing. Im still waiting for the Daytona USA port for the Sega 32X.
- the offer may fall short of expectations. As written above, consoles tend to appeal to a more mass market, players who probably don't want to spend time adjusting settings or perfecting racing lines, so, even if the title is the best in the platform it may still feel not up to your standards.

The best bet, as weird as it may sound is to keep and open mind to both worlds, the PC tends to lack titles like Gran Turismo, but makes it up with pure simulators. Consoles offer some of the best action driving titles out there but can't seem to offer anything beyond Codesmasters racers.

I'm still waiting for GP4 on the Dreamcast or was it the Xbox

Not sure I would put GT5 and Forza in the same camp as Codemasters arcade fantasy physics. At least GT5 and Forza physics have logic behind them.

[Sin]

It's always worth to exchange console with PC

[SPBHM]

Ive run Rfactor2 on an AMD 1100t @ 3.8ghz on all cores (overclocked from 3.3 i think it was) and with an amd/ati 7870 gfxcard, and even with lowering the gfx settings, i got stutter. It shoudn't really be any though, so it might be some bug with the setup. That cpu/gfx combo ran iracing very neatly and most other sims/games very good. Could be Rfactor runs better on intel cpu or nvidia gfxcards, but i never bothered to google it much as i was planning on an upgrade anyway (needed a second computer).

Now i run an intel i7 cpu (3770k) with an nvidia 680gtx, and rfactor2 is very smooth (as is all other games/sims i've tried).

If you go the PC route, i would go for a intel cpu, and my experience is that the nvidia gfx cards of late have an egde over the amd/ati cards, atleast in the middle to high price range. That said, my AMD proved a lot of power-to-price ratio and the same goes for the amd gfxcard i had (HD7870), but in pure performance my new rig quite a bit better...

Rfactor only uses a single core, so you need high performing cores (and not 6 cores), so Intel is really the way to go for that...

Rfactor is pretty easy on the graphics card, you shouldn't really compare graphics cards using such different CPUs, also the gtx 680 costs more than a 7970, the 7870 it's cheaper than the 660 ti.

as for the A4 3300, this is a really basic CPU (AMD calls it APU, it has integrated graphics), it's not really suitable for gaming (even if you go with the fastest CPU from the same family the 3870K, it's a massive improvement, but still slower than a $50 graphics card)
you can play rfactor and others, but it's far from ideal, both the CPU and Video performance is really low, and the experience with a more demanding game like f1 2012 will be pretty bad...

as for recommending something, are you building a PC, or buying a built system?

I would recommend visiting some guides like this
http://www.tomshardw...puter,3364.html

but if you are set on going lower, the 7700 series seems good for graphics card, or if you wan't the AMD "APU" route their newer a10 5800k is a lot faster than the A4 you are looking.

Edited by SPBHM, 06 February 2013 - 15:36.

[mahelgel]

Rfactor only uses a single core, so you need high performing cores (and not 6 cores), so Intel is really the way to go for that...

Rfactor is pretty easy on the graphics card, you shouldn't really compare graphics cards using such different CPUs, also the gtx 680 costs more than a 7970, the 7870 it's cheaper than the 660 ti.

Yeah, of course the GTX680 is alot more expensive and should be quite a bit quicker, same with the cpu, but i just told my own experience with Rfactor2 where i just didn't get it to run smoothly with the amd cpu and amd/ati gfxcard combination i had.

I thought Rfactor2 did use more than one core though, but if that is the case, then i can see the intel being a better choice. Even a much lower spec intel would probably be faster than the amd 1100t on a single core, as the amd 1100t's redeeming point was it being a very cheap 6 core cpu and not its single core performance

[Ibsey]

Sorry for the delay in replying guys. I've been busy solidly searching computers all day (in fact all throughout the last week). So I've only just seen your very interesting replies now.

If you go the PC route, i would go for a intel cpu, and my experience is that the nvidia gfx cards of late have an egde over the amd/ati cards, atleast in the middle to high price range. That said, my AMD proved a lot of power-to-price ratio and the same goes for the amd gfxcard i had (HD7870), but in pure performance my new rig quite a bit better...

I have also been reading stuff like that too (i.e intel = better graphics in the mid to high range. Whereas AMD might perhaps be a bit better on multitasking... at least according to one post i read). However since I am looking for the best power-to-price ratio i.e. best value for money, within the lower to mid end of the market. It does seem that AMD computers are providing this much more then intel computers. At least on what I could see on Ebay. Maybe it is because as one of my earlier posts eluded to, AMD are struggling financially, which means they have had to drop their prices to increase sales...I don't know?

Anyway the amount of research into which computer to buy, was getting so excessive, it was doing my head in. So I've decided take the plunge and just buy a new system that should just about run rFactor 2 (in addition to the older sims) from Ebay. The specs are;

AMD QUAD FX4-4100 (3.6GHz) & FAN
1-0GB G640 DVi / HDMI/ VGA Gaming Graphics
Asrock N68-VS3 Motherboard
8.0g DDR3 1333mhz
500g Sata III 7200 HDD
DVDRW DL +/-
Micro ATX Case Casecom CM-431
Branded 500W PSU

All for £240 brand new. I hope it was a good deal & would be interested to hear other people's thought on this (if it is a really bad machine, I can still cancel the order...if needs be). For anyone who is interested, here's is the link to the machine & the Ebay page;

http://www.ebay.co.u.....140912253513

FYI the cheapest brand new i3 intel computer I can recall seeing was around the £350 mark. As I said before, I just wanted a machine to see whether PC racing sims are for me. So committing to spending more than £250 on a PC at this stage, didn't seem a particularly good idea (i believe me I have thought about it alot...thats why my head is hurting so much). If I find PC racing sims are indeed for me (TBH that is what I am hoping...but I also am very aware of getting the best value for money from my gaming experience). Then I will look at building a top spec PC purely for sims in 2/3 years time & look forward to perhaps racing against some of you online.


Also please can anyone advise how well this machine may be able to run rFactor2? (last time I will ask this here I promise). If I can get away with above 20 FPS on low graphics, then I think that should give me a fair indication of what it would be like. Therefore whether I should get a high spec PC or a PS4 in 3 or so years time.

Based on what the original poster was asking, I did not get the impresion he was going to go down the route of spending huge amounts of cash for the most accurate PC based simulation. Instead he was curious to what sims could offer in relation to his enjoyment of GT5 and F1 2012 and would a budget PC satisfy his curiosity of titles such as Rfactor.

Thanks so much for understanding my dilemma.

Regarding if your next pc is ready or not for rFactor 2... I am slowly starting to believe that computer graphics (speed) is as difficult as fluid dynamics... Pc's (even Macs) are so idiotic complex that even pretty straight calculations (processorspeed, work-memory, RAM, ladieladielaladialadaaa) can give you big, big suprises.

It is simply ridiculous how complicated it all is. That's kind of why I just got fed up with it all in the end & just when for something. I don't even remember any project from my final year at Uni...being as complexed as having to research into which processors, clock speed, graphics cards etc provide the best value for money. Then there is the added complication that a quad core 4.0GHz machine by intel is not the same as a quad core 4.0GHz machine from AMD etc. I'm sure if things weren't quite as complicated more people would buy more PCs & perhaps people in my current situation would be more likely to get into PC sim racing & modding, thus making it even better as a result.

as for the A4 3300, this is a really basic CPU (AMD calls it APU, it has integrated graphics), it's not really suitable for gaming (even if you go with the fastest CPU from the same family the 3870K, it's a massive improvement, but still slower than a $50 graphics card)
you can play rfactor and others, but it's far from ideal, both the CPU and Video performance is really low, and the experience with a more demanding game like f1 2012 will be pretty bad...

as for recommending something, are you building a PC, or buying a built system?

I would recommend visiting some guides like this
http://www.tomshardw...puter,3364.html

but if you are set on going lower, the 7700 series seems good for graphics card, or if you wan't the AMD "APU" route their newer a10 5800k is a lot faster than the A4 you are looking.

Brought a built system. Please see the specs above & would be most interested in your thoughts on it. Thanks also for the links. I shall check to see how my new machine matches p & whether in fact there is a better value machine for rFactor 1 & 2 around the £250 mark currently. BTW I'm not looking to race F1 2012 or too many new games on it...it just need to test rfactor 2 sufficiently enough to decide if PC sims are for me in the future.

Yeah, of course the GTX680 is alot more expensive and should be quite a bit quicker, same with the cpu, but i just told my own experience with Rfactor2 where i just didn't get it to run smoothly with the amd cpu and amd/ati gfxcard combination i had.

I thought Rfactor2 did use more than one core though, but if that is the case, then i can see the intel being a better choice. Even a much lower spec intel would probably be faster than the amd 1100t on a single core, as the amd 1100t's redeeming point was it being a very cheap 6 core cpu and not its single core performance

Thanks for sharing your AMD CPU experience with me I do appreciate it. Are you able to comment on whether your old AMD is better or worse then the computer I have just purchased. Therefore am I likely to see more or less stuttering than you experienced. Also I did have the option of getting a GT 650 graphics card for £40 more. Do you think it would be worth it (FYI I did briefly look into it...but I was so tied of comparing computer bits by that stage, I just though I'd leave it).

Apologies for the long post. However it might take a month or two, before I get rFactor1 or 2 up & running on my new machine. So once I have experienced it...I will post my thoughts here, so that anyone in a similar position to me currently are better able to decide for themselves whether they would prefer consoles or PC racing games / sims.

Also being born & bred on consoles & shall still be keeping a very close eye on the developments of the next gen consoles & particularly the new racing games / sims for them. Of course I shall be posting my finding here also.

THanks once again to all those who have been kind enough to help me & hopefully be seeing you lot in my rear view mirror, sometime soon online.;)

Edited by Ibsey, 06 February 2013 - 20:36.

[mahelgel]

Thanks for sharing your AMD CPU experience with me I do appreciate it. Are you able to comment on whether your old AMD is better or worse then the computer I have just purchased. Therefore am I likely to see more or less stuttering than you experienced. Also I did have the option of getting a GT 650 graphics card for £40 more. Do you think it would be worth it (FYI I did briefly look into it...but I was so tied of comparing computer bits by that stage, I just though I'd leave it).

I don't have any personal experience with that particular AMD cpu, but from what i found on a quick google search, atleast on pure number crunching power, the 1100t i had was quicker (probably due to the 2 extra cores, i would guess). In games that don't take advantage of a 6 core cpu, the difference might not be that big. Unfortunately i can't really comment all that much on it.


As for the gfx card, i would try to google for game benchmarks too see the real life difference, there is a jungle of different models from both nvidia and ati, and it really is difficult to find the right card to hit the sweet spot between price and performance...

[werks prototype]

Im still waiting for the Daytona USA port for the Sega 32X.

But you did get the superior 32X conversion of Virtua Racing!

Better than the Saturn version anyway.

[Ibsey]

As for the gfx card, i would try to google for game benchmarks too see the real life difference, there is a jungle of different models from both nvidia and ati, and it really is difficult to find the right card to hit the sweet spot between price and performance...

Having done a bit more research into the gfx card I am now thinking of improving it to ensure it performs better in rFactor 2. I've been told by the shop where I am purchasing the system from that the best graphics in terms of making the most out of my new system (the specs are in my earlier post... the AMD QUAD FX4-4100 (3.6GHz) system) is a GTX 650 Ti. As this provides the best value for money. They will also change the PSU accordingly as well.

Heres the comparison between the existing gfx & the improved one; http://www.hwcompare....ce-gtx-650-ti/

Note the pixel rate there is only a 3% difference. However the other items seem to be much better. I would love to hear anyones thoughts on whether they think the GTX 650 Ti would be a good choice? As the only reason for improving the graphics card is to get a half decent performance for rFactor 2.

Thanks so much for all your help so far.

[Ibsey]

But you did get the superior 32X conversion of Virtua Racing!

Better than the Saturn version anyway.

I always used to race the stock car in Virtua Racing & secretly pretend it was Daytona USA for the 32X.

Also I could spend ages in the option menu of that game listening to the different engine sounds from the V8 which IIRC sounded like a 1995 Minardi Ford. The V10, which sounded like a 1995 Williams Renualt. Or the glorious V12 which sounded like the last V12 Ferrari from 1995. Happy days (back in the days when I couldn't afford the Saturn or PS1.)

[superdelphinus]

7850 2gb overclocked version (usually around £140 or so) are the best price/ performance combination at the moment I reckon (as does Tom's hardware)

[Ibsey]

7850 2gb overclocked version (usually around £140 or so) are the best price/ performance combination at the moment I reckon (as does Tom's hardware)

Thanks for that suggestion. Comparing the two cards against one another on these links;

http://www.hwcompare...radeon-hd-7850/

http://community.fut...X 650 Ti/review

Certainly does seem to suggest that the 7850 you mentioned is better value. However the bloke from the shop seemed to suggest that if I was to go any higher than the GTX 650 TI GFX card for my current system specs, then I would start getting diminishing returns. So, if I was to get the 7850 might it be bottle necked by my current system specs (again those can be found on my post from yesterday).

Also does this graphics card come overclocked as standard, or is that something I will need to do after it has been purchased? Also is their any risk attached to overclocking it?

[Red17]

But you did get the superior 32X conversion of Virtua Racing!

Yeah, it was great bait the incar camera in the pseudo-group c was awsome.

[superdelphinus]

Thanks for that suggestion. Comparing the two cards against one another on these links;

http://www.hwcompare...radeon-hd-7850/

http://community.fut...X 650 Ti/review

Certainly does seem to suggest that the 7850 you mentioned is better value. However the bloke from the shop seemed to suggest that if I was to go any higher than the GTX 650 TI GFX card for my current system specs, then I would start getting diminishing returns. So, if I was to get the 7850 might it be bottle necked by my current system specs (again those can be found on my post from yesterday).

Also does this graphics card come overclocked as standard, or is that something I will need to do after it has been purchased? Also is their any risk attached to overclocking it?

You probably get diminishing returns as soon as you start going over £100 to be honest! E.g the difference between my card and a £300 gtx 670 would only be a handful of fps on most games (if that), as I just use one monitor. I'd always get the best thing you can afford personally, you never know when you might upgrade other components.

The sapphire 7850 oC Edition comes factory overclocked to 920mhz but it's very easy and safe to increase this quite a bit further using AMD's ccc tool (simply sliding a bar across a bit more!). I have mine at about 1.2ghz on the core and 1450mhz on the memory. The 7850 is one of the most overclock able cards out there at the moment and you can get the speeds up to stock speeds of cards twice their price with a bit of patience.

[Ibsey]

You probably get diminishing returns as soon as you start going over £100 to be honest! E.g the difference between my card and a £300 gtx 670 would only be a handful of fps on most games (if that), as I just use one monitor. I'd always get the best thing you can afford personally, you never know when you might upgrade other components.

The sapphire 7850 oC Edition comes factory overclocked to 920mhz but it's very easy and safe to increase this quite a bit further using AMD's ccc tool (simply sliding a bar across a bit more!). I have mine at about 1.2ghz on the core and 1450mhz on the memory. The 7850 is one of the most overclock able cards out there at the moment and you can get the speeds up to stock speeds of cards twice their price with a bit of patience.

I will get that GFX card instead then. Thanks for your kind advice.

[Requiem84]

Although the argument seems to be settled already, with Ibsey buying a PC for rFactor 2, I still would like to offer my opinion.

Very simply put, if you want pure realism, the PC is the only way to go. GT5 and Forza are nice racing games, but regarding their tire model, they are much more simplistic than iRacing's new tire model, netKar Pro's tire model, rFactor's tire model and most of all, Assetto Corsa's upcoming tire model. And yes, a tire model is the standout difference between simulation's nowadays. The rest of the physics is more straightforward, while tire models are still somewhat obscured in a cloud of unkownness.

I really have high hopes for Assetto Corsa. I was an avid iRacing player, but got fed up with their financial structure, and more importantly the skrewed physics. For me netKar Pro still offers the best possible driving experience in terms of physics. You can pick up this gem of a game for 15 euro's, which includes a hillclimb, about 7 cars, and even wet weather, a bargain!

The same makers are doing Assetto Corsa now, which is the most anticipated new simulation of 2013. Some pics to get you all warm here...








Much more info on their FB page and website!

Edited by Requiem84, 08 February 2013 - 08:08.

[Linus27]

Although the argument seems to be settled already, with Ibsey buying a PC for rFactor 2, I still would like to offer my opinion.

Very simply put, if you want pure realism, the PC is the only way to go. GT5 and Forza are nice racing games, but regarding their tire model, they are much more simplistic than iRacing's new tire model, netKar Pro's tire model, rFactor's tire model and most of all, Assetto Corsa's upcoming tire model. And yes, a tire model is the standout difference between simulation's nowadays. The rest of the physics is more straightforward, while tire models are still somewhat obscured in a cloud of unkownness.

I really have high hopes for Assetto Corsa. I was an avid iRacing player, but got fed up with their financial structure, and more importantly the skrewed physics. For me netKar Pro still offers the best possible driving experience in terms of physics. You can pick up this gem of a game for 15 euro's, which includes a hillclimb, about 7 cars, and even wet weather, a bargain!

The same makers are doing Assetto Corsa now, which is the most anticipated new simulation of 2013. Some pics to get you all warm here...








Much more info on their FB page and website!

I think we would all agree with this. I am glad you mentioned the physics of Iracing as I also felt it was dated and not quite right. The tracks on the other hand are superb. I could use the same braking reference points for Brands and Oulton as I could for the real life tracks. The accuracy is stunning. I would also agree with you on tyre models although I would go as far as saying the Forza model is not as simplistic as GT5 and is in fact as good as some of the old classic sims like Race, GTR, GT Legends etc. As I said earlier, even GPL did not simulate tyre wear or heat etc. However, it seems that the new breed of PC sims have realised the importance of simulating the tyres well, with Live For Speed probably one of the first to really get it right. Such a shame that has fallen by the way side for such a long time.

[mahelgel]

As I said earlier, even GPL did not simulate tyre wear or heat etc. However, it seems that the new breed of PC sims have realised the importance of simulating the tyres well, with Live For Speed probably one of the first to really get it right. Such a shame that has fallen by the way side for such a long time.

I do think GPL sort of simulated tyer heat, as i "melted" my rears when driving with a joystick and sliding all over the place after a few laps of the glen (really agressive driving, i must admidt). Then driving slower a lap or two to cool them down enough to make me able to do another attack...

[Ibsey]

I do think GPL sort of simulated tyer heat, as i "melted" my rears when driving with a joystick and sliding all over the place after a few laps of the glen (really agressive driving, i must admidt). Then driving slower a lap or two to cool them down enough to make me able to do another attack...

The bloke who does these videos also though there might be 'simulated tyre heat' in GPL...



See 04:45 onwards (been watching a few of these GPL video's recently IMO this game still looks mighty impressive). Whilst on the subject of GPL's does anyone know if a Logitech G25 steering wheel is compatible with it?

I think we would all agree with this. I am glad you mentioned the physics of Iracing as I also felt it was dated and not quite right. The tracks on the other hand are superb. I could use the same braking reference points for Brands and Oulton as I could for the real life tracks. The accuracy is stunning. I would also agree with you on tyre models although I would go as far as saying the Forza model is not as simplistic as GT5 and is in fact as good as some of the old classic sims like Race, GTR, GT Legends etc. As I said earlier, even GPL did not simulate tyre wear or heat etc. However, it seems that the new breed of PC sims have realised the importance of simulating the tyres well, with Live For Speed probably one of the first to really get it right. Such a shame that has fallen by the way side for such a long time.

I also saw on you tube a video of tyre locking & damage from rFactor 2 here...



Would be interesting to know peoples thoughts on whether the racing games / sims that come out on the new generation of console (i.e. PS4 etc) will ever go into that amount of detail as that ex game developer from Bizzard Studios suggested in an article on one of my earlier posts?

My two cents on the subject are, that given the likes of Forza tyre modelling are as good as PC sims were a few years ago, then there seems to me the distinct possibility that console racing games in a few years time are as realistic as PC sims are today (if that all makes sense). Maybe console racers might catch up even before then (difficult to say). I know there is the mass market aspect of console games having to appeal to a wider audience. However the way I see it, the next generation consoles should to have enough power to allow players in the game to set how realistic an experience (in terms of driving physics) they want.

Although this might not compare with PC sims in a few years, I can't see it being as far off as it is today. For the simple reason of how much more realistic can PC sims get. Whereas judging by most peoples thoughts I've read consoles racing games have got more ground to make up in the realism stakes. I know ultimately we will have to wait & see but I just wondered if others shared this opinion or not?

I for one do believe there would be a market for PC like racing sims on next gen consoles (which would also cater for 'arcade racers' via game settings). Especially given the difficulties associated with getting the right PC / GFX card / PSU unit etc etc, all within that certain person's budget & specific requirements. Then there is the extra cost over the console & possibile future upgrades neccessary to play games down the line. Not to mention how time consuming it all might be to Download & set it all up. Furthermore at the end of it, if you are like me & haven't played any PC racing sims for the last 10 years or so (my last one being GP4). Then you are essentially taking a massive gamble or risk, in investing so much time & money into something, you either may not enjoy. Or have the time to enjoy it properly, due to real life commitments etc.

I'm sure these aspects & many more puts many would be sim racers of ever going down the PC route. So they just stick with console games racing games instead. Thats why I think it would be good for the next gen consoles to start releasing more realistic racing games to cater for people on this situation. Sure it would bring them in direct competition with PC racing sims. But surely that would be a good thing, as (in theory at least) it should raise the standard of both PC & console sims due to the increase competition. Thus meaning we the consumers will ultimately get a better deal.

I was hesitating to mention this here, because for fear of upsetting all the extremely kind people who have helped me in this thread over these last few days (my sincerest apologies if I have). But earlier today I cancelled my order for the PC was looking to buy. This is simply to give myself more time to consider how much actual time I will have for PC sims & whether it is worth going straight into rFactor 2 or should I just get a more basic system (i.e. just enough to play rFactor 1). I keep changing my mind by the hour, it is absolute torture.

Although there is still a very good possibility I may reorder that same PC. As things stand I was thinking of getting just enough of a system to play rFactor 1 & the older sims whislt ideally be compatible with a HDMI TV. Although I do think I would prefer PC sims over existing console games. I am unsure of how much time I will have in the coming months to DL all the mods, sort out the setup & generally enjoy them. Where as console games when you have an hour free you can just pick up & play. So to my mind it would be ideal if in the not to distance future a game developer was able to merge the realism aspect with the pick up & play aspect.

Edited by Ibsey, 08 February 2013 - 22:56.

[mahelgel]

I used to drive hours and hours a week back when GPL was the sim of choice. I drove GPL from it was released up until shortly before iracing was released.

At the point when i started to drive less GPL, i tried a lot of other sims, but none stuck with me the way GPL did. Iracing sadly hasn't managed to keep me as interested as GPL did, but i still pay for it, and i still drive a few laps now and then. I am really looking forward to the lotus49 release in iRacing, but for now i am mostly driving the lotus 79. I also have rFactor2, Kart Racing Pro, Live For Speed, NFS shift and Netkar pro that i drive when i get a chance.

I also have an Xbox 360 and Forza 4 (and forza horizon, but that lost my attention pretty fast). Not sure how accurate the pysics are in Forza 4, but the feel of the car (although with the hand controller, not my G27 i use on the computer), is pretty great. The weight and feel of the car moving about really hit the sweet spot, but it might not be as accurate as in iRacing and the other PC sims. I usually hotlap, and when it comes to close racing, Forza is a bit more arcade as there isn't much damage and the ai can be a bit daft. You usually don't loose any time if you bumpt into the competition, and that is a drawback as it gets to be an invite to push the ai out of the way (i do race cleanly when i race online though, but not everyone is)

As for the future, both consoles and PC will probably have upcoming titles that will be great. However, i do think that in general the PC sims probably will a bit less "pick up and play" compared to the console titles. With that i mean that you will need a bit more of time and effort to be able to get some fun out of it. Forza is great in the way that you can just pick ut the controller and play. But in iRacing, if there have been some time since i drove the lotus79, I will need some laps to get the grips again.

Therefore i think the whole console vs PC is more down to how much time and effort you can afford to spend, and atleast for me i think i will sometime in the future end up with just 1 sim on the computer, and get a variety of titles on the console for the pick-up-and-play ease of it all

*edit*
Not owning a PS3 i haven't much experience with GT5 and the physics there, but a friend of mine have a ps3 and a thrustmaster t500rs wheel, so my only experience whit GT5 was 2 laps around the nurburgring with a bmw 1series (i think it was). Having never played it before, i got pretty decent speed pretty fast, and it felt pretty good. Still think Forza has better sense of "weight" and "mass" in the car but since i have such little grounds for comparison i will not say that GT5 is any better or worse than Forza4....

Edited by mahelgel, 09 February 2013 - 17:09.

[Red17]

My two cents on the subject are, that given the likes of Forza tyre modelling are as good as PC sims were a few years ago, then there seems to me the distinct possibility that console racing games in a few years time are as realistic as PC sims are today (if that all makes sense). Maybe console racers might catch up even before then (difficult to say). I know there is the mass market aspect of console games having to appeal to a wider audience. However the way I see it, the next generation consoles should to have enough power to allow players in the game to set how realistic an experience (in terms of driving physics) they want.

Although this might not compare with PC sims in a few years, I can't see it being as far off as it is today. For the simple reason of how much more realistic can PC sims get. Whereas judging by most peoples thoughts I've read consoles racing games have got more ground to make up in the realism stakes. I know ultimately we will have to wait & see but I just wondered if others shared this opinion or not?

New consoles, no matter what year they are released (except for handhelds) will always catch up with PC. The thing is, consoles are a closed spec that will see no changes in the core components, you may get a faster wi-fi receiver, a bigger hard drive, but that's it. Sega has shown twice that upgrading console hardware is too expensive and in no way makes up for that cost.

PC's are a open environment with virtually hundreds of companies pouring out new hardware that pushes the line further and further, it's not just storage, it's everything from processing power to more efficient cooling. So in theory, if you want to program a virtual world that requires accurate simulation of variants like weight, temperature and get all those variants to talk to each other, you need all the juice you can get, so naturally you go for the platform that keeps expanding. Of course that consoles can run GPL with no issue and maybe even Rfactor, but you can't push those tittles the same way because the hardware can't cope with the added demand, the line will continue to move forward.

[Gold]

New consoles, no matter what year they are released (except for handhelds) will always catch up with PC. The thing is, consoles are a closed spec that will see no changes in the core components, you may get a faster wi-fi receiver, a bigger hard drive, but that's it. Sega has shown twice that upgrading console hardware is too expensive and in no way makes up for that cost.

PC's are a open environment with virtually hundreds of companies pouring out new hardware that pushes the line further and further, it's not just storage, it's everything from processing power to more efficient cooling. So in theory, if you want to program a virtual world that requires accurate simulation of variants like weight, temperature and get all those variants to talk to each other, you need all the juice you can get, so naturally you go for the platform that keeps expanding. Of course that consoles can run GPL with no issue and maybe even Rfactor, but you can't push those tittles the same way because the hardware can't cope with the added demand, the line will continue to move forward.

Man the simple fact that you cant even change POV on a console sim to adjust for your particular screen size and viewing distance and horizon height for your race seat setup says it all.

You will never ever get an accurate F1 car on a console because people who want a fully realistic car are a small percentage of customers. Make it only 80% realistic and the target market size grows exponentially.

On the pc however you can race a 1300hp 85 car including tobacco livery that takes 20 minutes just to get used to let alone driving on the limit.

[Tenmantaylor]

Assetto Corso looks stunning. If the physics match it should be great. I've stopped driving iRacing now. Not enough people racing the series I wanted to drive in and also got bored of the physics which were being exploited in unrealistic ways (one of the bains of simulations) ie the fastest way to drive the Dallara was in a constant 10-15% induced slide. Don't have to know much about motor sport or sims to know that just isn't right.

[superdelphinus]

I really like iracing but some of the driving displayed is absolutely pathetic, it just takes a lot of the fun out of it. It's often a lottery getting through lap 1 intact and then after that you often have to drive very passively (when both undertaking and defending) and just assume the guy behind/ahead isn't going to think twice about forcing you off the road, or crash both of you off, if you get in his way

[Gold]

Using a gear shifter in iRacing, if you select a gear and the sim determines the revs don't match it will not shift. Your lever will be in the right gear but you drive along and suddenly the car changes into the gear you selected, after several seconds.

There is no grinding noise, no feedback, nothing. It is the most unrealistic simulation of a dog box in simulators. Using grinding tranny in rF you will NOT be able to select that gear and have to put the box in neutral before matching revs using heel and toe again before selecting the gear. The amount of rev matching you have to do on the downshifts depends on your clutch use, clutchless shifting etc. It also depends if you go through the whole box when downshifting like Senna used to do or if you just bang in the gear you want like Schumacher did, or if you go 6th, 4th, 2nd like Prost did double declutching.

And it changes for every car you choose to drive obviously.

Edited by Gold, 11 February 2013 - 10:07.

[Ibsey]

Hi, since you were extremely kind in helping me a few months ago. I just wanted to keep you updated as to how things have developed with me. I did go for a lower spec PC in the end which runs Rfactor 1 comfortably. However since then, I have barely switched the computer on (for several reasons...which I won’t bore you with). So I’ve haven’t had much of a chance to try rFactor 1. I mean I played the demo a couple of weeks ago (which was with I think a proton cup car at Nurburgring GP) maybe for ½ to 1 hour. Which I did quite enjoy. Even though it was just using a keyboard. As you had previously mentioned, the basic handling & physics seem pretty similar to that of GT5 (maybe rFactor 1 is a touch more realistic). Nevertheless considering rFactor 1 came out way earlier than GT5 that’s still pretty impressive. Also I could tell that racing even with just the AI would be almost as intense as back in the day with GP4. Which was a good thing. I say almost since when trying the 2003 mod later on with computer cars I didn’t feel the AI cars defended quite as realistically as they seem to do in GP4. Which is understandable I guess given most people play rFactor 1 online against people. However was impressed to find the ‘dirty air’ problem when close up behind another car (I don’t recall that being in GP4).

Having got a few F1 mods (1979, 1985, 1993 & 2003) last week. Again I’ve barely had the chance to play those mods yet. Perhaps I tried it for a total of 3 hours Max!!! So these really are just first impressions (again mostly with keyboard but also occasionally trying out a pad...when it worked). And bearing in mind I was always using the default setup, & hadn’t configure the pad when it did work.

The 1979 mod did seem really good, seemed quite easy to drift the car (i.e control the oversteer) which actually felt very natural to drive (i.e. exactly how one would image a 1979 F1 car to react). Perhaps because cars in those days were more reliant on mechanical grip rather than aero grip. so easy to read a slide. Even if the brakes felt awful!. The 1985 mod, equally as good, I mean I instantly felt things like the turbo lag, & a great struge of power, particularly around the mid to high range of torque (again as one would expected from 1985 F1 beasts).

Had issues getting a pad to work for the 1993 mod...which was very disappointing as was really looking forward to hearing that Ferrari V12 at full volume. Oh well next time. Finally the 2003 mod felt OK. However it didn’t seem to me, too dissimilar from the F1 cars in GT5 or F1 2006 CE on the PS3 I felt (maybe rFactor being more realistic in the way the car moves around under braking...because of the downshifts, or how kerbs seem to launch individual wheels into the air, thus momentary losing steering ability).

For the benefit of others who are in a similar position to how I was a couple of months ago i.e. trying to decide whether to jumping from console racing games to PC sims is for them? Particular given the next gen console are on their way. Also given PC racing sims although slightly more realistic than console racing games like GT5 or Forza, can they be bothered with all the hassle of getting a new computer, the correct GFX & setting it all up? In addition to the extra costs of a new PC rig etc.

At this stage I can only give limited advice since I have barely played rFactor (a pretty old PC sim nowadays). But from my experience, rFactor 1 seems only a small amout more realistic than GT5 on the PS3 (I haven’t played Forza). Say maybe 5% more. And honestly for most people, I reckon sticking with a console racing game is better value for money (if that is what they look at also...like me), and a better option all things considered. So it really depends how badly you want or need that extra realism that a PC racing sim might offer, because everyone is going to have different requirements.

In any case I would agree with Linus27 of comments highlighted in bold.

So, for me, I am going the other way and leaning more towards consoles for my racing fix. This is partly because the console games give me the fix I am after. Great graphics, great sound, great online play, great wheel support as well as being technical enough where I can fiddle with setups that make a difference to the way the car handles. Also the great track choices like Motegi, Sebring, Le Mans, Spa, Monza, Sears Point etc as well as the full F1 calendar in road cars, GT cars, rally spec cars, classic cars etc with rain and atmosphere. Plus, long gone are the days or arcade physics for console racing games like Forza and Gran Turismo. Ok, they won't touch Iracing and Rfactor in the close details when simulating physics but the basics are very much there and I can say that considering I do track days in my Lotus Elise and Civic Type R.

And defiantly I’d recommend trying before you buy, even if that means doing what I did (i.e. buying a relatively cheap / lower spec PC & trying living with a racing sim for a while...before committing to the latest PC rig capable of handling the lastest PC racing sim). rFactor 1 & I guess PC racing sims in general are only really suitable for those who are looking to have that last few percentage of realism & are prepare to put in the time or effort to get it.

I mean so far I have hated this whole experience more than I have enjoyed it (although hoping playing rFactor more will turn that around). However as things stand, I am truly dreading having to research & then install which Mods to get for rFactor (like the Realfeel tool, which I read on the rFactor Thread here is essential for hooking up a G25 wheel to it). Also dreading having to install / set it all up & configure the wheel / pad settings etc. It all just seems like too much hassle, so I am really missing that pick up & play aspect from GT5. Its only that I am massively passionate about 70’s, 80’s & 90’s F1 cars...so I need to drive these cars at least once (if only on a computer!) before I die. That I am putting up with all of the hassle of getting the right PC & mods for the game etc right now. However in 6 months time, should I not want to put up with that hassle any longer (if it is still there). And instead revert back to GT5 & the likes. Then I won’t feel too bad about things.

I’ll try and give you lot another update in a couple of months time, after I have played rFactor more. However in the meantime I am always open to any more suggestions of particularly good rFactor mods. Cheers.

Edited by Ibsey, 29 March 2013 - 01:20.

[Requiem84]

Do I understand correctly that you bought a PC to play racingsims with a gamepad?

[Ibsey]

Do I understand correctly that you bought a PC to play racingsims with a gamepad?

No I do have a G25 wheel, just haven't had the chance yet to hook it all up & try it out with rFactor yet.

[Requiem84]

No I do have a G25 wheel, just haven't had the chance yet to hook it all up & try it out with rFactor yet.

Ah okay. I'd say your judgement on realism is a little bit premature then. Realism can best be judged with a proper FFB wheel. With gamepads, even the best sims can't show what they are capable off.

One more advice; pick up a digital copy of netKar Pro for € 6.99. A bargain for the most realistic sim out there, and it will run nice on older hardware too.

[Ibsey]

Ah okay. I'd say your judgement on realism is a little bit premature then. Realism can best be judged with a proper FFB wheel. With gamepads, even the best sims can't show what they are capable off.

One more advice; pick up a digital copy of netKar Pro for € 6.99. A bargain for the most realistic sim out there, and it will run nice on older hardware too.

Yes I agree about my judgement on realism is a little premature at the moment. However I just wanted to post something here, to let the kind people who helped me before know I haven't forgotten about them.

Hoping to play rFactor seriously (when time allows), over the next couple of months or so & then post another update then. BTW thanks very much for the tip RE;netKar Pro. I might just do that & let you know how I get on. Cheers.

[ApexMouse]

If you like Netkar, The 'sequel' is coming out reasonably soon. It's called Asseto Corsa, and it looks like the best driving sim in years. The tech demo is excellent.

Well worth a buy when considering ISI will dick about with rfactor 2 for another 30 years before actually releasing it.

Edited by ApexMouse, 01 April 2013 - 16:15.

[Skinnyguy]

Yes, it´s worth. Why? Not because of console hardware limiting physics or graphics badly.

The current gen of consoles could be enough for a game handling seriously good and looking just fine. It´s just that there isn´t anyone wanting to do it. There are modded versions of F1 2012 with tweaked damage, tweaked AI, and tweaked off-track surfaces and it´s pretty darn good. If some amateurs out there can manage to do this well, just imagine if the company having built the game tried to get a serious game. But they don´t want, damage must be ****, and grass must be flat and grippy so clueless drivers won´t cry.

That´s what stopping console games mostly: there´s no market for proper serious racing games. Or at least developers think so, I don´t know if they´re right.

PS4 or Xbox 720 or whatever hardware won´t change this. Developers´ mind must change.

Edited by Skinnyguy, 01 April 2013 - 19:18.