19 replies to this topic

[Ralf Pickel]

Here is a question for the Indy - History specialists :
German Magazine "Oldtimer Markt" in its latest issue has a feature about the 1932 Chrysler Golden Seal Special, driven by Gaudino.
Now, the feature is about the cars as it is today, there are some new photos plus an original one, showing Gaudino in ´32.
Suspiciuosly, the car, as it is today, does look completely different - almost every detail has changed. The frame is different, the location of the springs on the frame, the angle of the steering tube, the location of the steering box, front valance etc. etc.

Here is a recent photo :


I could not find a photo in it´s original guise on the www, but I could scan the article, if anyone is interested.

The whole thing, in my eyes, suspiciously is about a pretend car. The history is reported as "Gaudino died in ´75, 20 years later his car suddenly appeared in England, from here it came to Germany in 2004".
The car being from Argentine, I am rather tempted to not really belive the story......

Ralf

Edited by Ralf Pickel, 03 February 2013 - 11:33.

[Vitesse2]

Here's a picture of it circa 1937-39 when owned by Hugo Abramor, Ralf:



http://pueblolaemili...nia-de-oro.html

You'll probably have more luck searching for it as "Insignia de Oro"

[Tim Murray]

According to this site there are three cars claiming the identity of the Insignia de Oro:

http://www.fantasyju...y... straight 8

Here's a painting of the car, which looks similar to the photo in the Popely Indianapolis 500 Chronicle:

http://grandcanyon.f.....ion Green.jpg

[Vitesse2]

As I understand it the ownership history of the real Insignia de Oro up to about 1948 is Gaudino-Abramor-Pesatti-Repossi. It ran again at Indy in 1933 driven by Riganti.

However, I don't have the Guillermo Sánchez "Fuerza Libre" book, so there may be more to tell.

[Ralf Pickel]

Thank you both for the quick replies.
The painting and the original photo do look like the original photo shown in the article with Gaudino on board.
The way the springs arelocated, the kink in the frame and the shape of the front valance are quite different to the car in Germany.
The Fantasy Junction car is also different yet again...
Probably a can of worms better closed again...

Ralf

[David McKinney]

I no longer have access to the relevant photos, but around 1990 Jeremy Agace bought what was claimed to be the original car from Abba Kogan. I saw it (and photographed it) at Paul Lanzante's about that time, and believe it looked different from either the Fantasy Junction car or the German one. Hard to be sure of course without those 1990(ish) photos

[Ralf Pickel]

Would be interesting to see those.

But, nevertheless, the German car looks to be the least genuine one..

Ralf

[David McKinney]

I might be on their trail, Ralf

[David McKinney]

I'd forgotten that I'd sent copies to TNFer gerr




Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Taken in early 1991

Thanks for getting back in touch gerr

[Ralf Pickel]

David - thank you for posting those.
Now, the car on your photos does look like the one in Germany, the history with Kogan / Lanzante would also fit in the story.
But - there are clearly some differences to the photo of the original car and the painting on the link above.
The front valance and dumb irons are quite clearly different, which would also mean a different frame.
Also, the whole ride height and the height of the sitting driver are different - the original is more low slung.

According to the German article, a few minor details have changed over the years...

The whole story would not be that strange if they would not have printed the photo of the original car !

Ralf

Edited by Ralf Pickel, 04 February 2013 - 07:23.

[Ralf Pickel]

Just found this : http://ims.cdn.racer...1120/MEDIUM.jpg

The link shows the 33 entry of Riganti, which was the same car, too.
Here you can clearly see all the differences.
I still think it is a different machine !

But I am no Indy expert...

Ralf

[Ray Bell]

If only that colourised photo had some detail in it!

Otherwise, each photo is from a different angle and there's not nearly enough visible to see what's what with it. Except that 1935 photo, which is clearly using a different chassis.

On what chassis is it supposed to be built?

Edited by Ray Bell, 04 February 2013 - 07:44.

[Ralf Pickel]

The German author does describe it as shortened 1930/31 Chrysler Imperial Eight chassis, # FZ 2513.
The colourised photo does show the front, which - to my eyes - looks similar / identical to the one on my link and on the painting, which is linked a few posts above.
The England/Germany car is different.

Ralf

[Ray Bell]

There's no doubt in my mind that the painting is so like the photo because the photo was the sole reference for the painting...

I can probably find someone with a pic of an Imperial chassis if you like.

[Tim Murray]

There's no doubt in my mind that the painting is so like the photo because the photo was the sole reference for the painting...

I think that's also true for the Lou Meyer car #36 behind the Chrysler:

http://linapps.s3.am...meyer-9c3e8.jpg

There are a few more photos of the 'Fantasy Junction' car on this forum page (scroll down):

http://www.jalopyjou...r...14&page=162

[D-Type]

This sounds like an axe that had the shaft changed from hickory to ash, the head changed in shape and which was left in the back of the shed when the farm was sold.

[Ralf Pickel]

And then they repainted it, too !

[Ray Bell]

After what the Germans did to the ME5 we shouldn't be surprised at anything...

The frame on this car is simply a joke.

[john medley]

The German car looks remarkably like the Special built in Australia by Bruce Hartwig for Bob Larkin just before Bob retired from motor sport. Where did Bob sell it to? Germany-- where this car was later advertised( incorrectly) as having period Australian race history

[Ralf Pickel]

A lot of Pre War cars gain fascinating histories as soon as they cross our border !

That´s the reason why I did enquire obout the Chrysler in the first place - I tend to not believa anything anymore, especially if it is too good a story....

Ralf