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How to rejuvenate F1


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#101 mattferg

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 05:31

Three scenarios, all to try to capture what the driver vs technology thing is all about.

1) Your dinner host makes a cake for dessert. One makes it from a pre-packaged mix, and one makes it from scratch. Both cooks used technologies to make their cakes. The one who used the pre-mix made theirs faster, whereas the other made their base wrong and the cake tastes horrible.

2) Two guys separately sail cross the Pacific from San Francisco to Sydney. One guy uses sat nav/GPS etc., the other uses the sun and stars/sextant. Both use technologies to get there. The guy with sat nav gets there, the other doesn't and dies along the way, after getting lost.

3) You hire two guys to tune your piano. One guy uses an electronic gizmo that checks each string. The other guy starts with a tuning fork and does the rest by ear. They both used different technologies. The guy with the electronic gizmo tunes the piano in half an hour. The ear guy takes six hours, the piano sounds horrific and he charges you twice as much.

I know which person I admire more for ability, talent, determination, etc., - the second person in each case. That's regardless of the fact that the first person got the job done quicker and, yes, possibly more precisely. The point is not just the speed but the way the person went about the task. In racing I prefer a driver who does the work for his or herself.

Fans who think this is just a Luddite approach or that it is "anti-technology" just don't get it. I've followed F1 avidly since 1973 so you can't tell me I can't deal with change.

If you value speed above all else - fine, but I hope you can appreciate that some fans like it a bit slower, for these kind of reasons.


I fixed this post for you.

You can't just declare that both methods get you the same result. They just don't, most of the time. There's a reason people invented new technology, and it isn't just to "make things faster". It prevents disasters and overall makes things far less risky. Don't forget that.


I think radically simplifying the aerodynamics would certainly help. This would significantly reduce costs, allowing less stringent regulation of other areas more relevant to car manufacturers.


One very simple rule change can achieve this. I call it the two piece mould rule.

Theoretically, the car body should be one continuous surface. i.e if it were placed inside a sphere, that sphere should be able to shrink around it to form the body of the car (the body of the car includes everything except wishbones and wheels) . There should also only be one upper surface and one lower surface. The same with the sides. i.e the shape should theoretically be able to be cast from a two piece mould.

The split of the mould could be either down the horizontal axis or vertical axis giving designers the choice of either incorporating wings or venturi's into their designs, but for obvious reasons it would be impossible to choose both.(I think).

Only the inlets and outlets for radiators, exhausts and air intakes are permitted intrusions allowed to break the surface. Oh and the cockpit of course.

The only other add on's allowed are wing mirrors and aerials.


Of course, many teams who have invested millions of pounds in wind tunnels, CFD and star aerodynamicists would have a fit. However, in the long term I believe many more interesting and fruitful avenues of engineering would appear.


Men like Adrian Newey would find ways to get around this that you'd never have thought of. That's what they get paid so much for. It might not be 'in the spirit of the rules' but it'd follow those guidelines.

Edited by mattferg, 17 February 2013 - 05:35.


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#102 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 12:17

Why is there such a demand for manual shifting with a gear stick? Come on now, this is Formula One we're talking about. It's about technology, so manually shifting gears is just too outdated, it just doesn't fit into F1 anymore. This is more suited for touring cars or something, not for open wheel racers like F1.

#103 uffen

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 16:07

"I fixed this post for you.

You can't just declare that both methods get you the same result. They just don't, most of the time. There's a reason people invented new technology, and it isn't just to "make things faster". It prevents disasters and overall makes things far less risky. Don't forget that."

Thanks for "fixing" it, Mattferg. Actually any level of technology can mix things up, fail, be mishandled, etc. The new trannies fail, too, the hydraulics go wonky, etc. Yes, automatic gearboxes were meant to "fix" a few things: missed shifts, mainly, and to make them faster. For some people F1 is all about technology - this is a rather recent phenomenon, I find. I was once all for more technology but once it started to mess with the driver's job I realised it was a dead end for racing. Not "going faster" but "racing." Then the cost thing rears its ugly head.

Anyway, this is getting off topic for the thread. Some (at least one poster) wants the drivers to do the job by remote control (the ultimate in technology and safety!) and I want the drivers to do the work in the car. And there are all kinds of opinions in between.

#104 Bruce

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 16:08

Why is there such a demand for manual shifting with a gear stick? Come on now, this is Formula One we're talking about. It's about technology, so manually shifting gears is just too outdated, it just doesn't fit into F1 anymore. This is more suited for touring cars or something, not for open wheel racers like F1.


If it's technology you want, perhaps we should make the cars "automatic". I'm sure the boffins could develop a really efficient system...

#105 DrProzac

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 16:27

There we have it! :up:

The only things I would add: Regarding the tires, I would like something that degrades but can still be pushed, to allow for some different strategies and so on. Regarding the green racing BS, I don't mind it AS LONG AS IT IS DONE IN A RESONABLE WAY. I think the fuel flow limit is a great idea as long as the limit is not set too low. Just increase the flow by 50 percent or so compared to what's coming in 2014 and we would have V10 power while using at the most V8 levels of fuel. :cool: The last thing to change would be to introduce a combined driver and seat weight, that way heavier drivers would not be punished even if the minimum weight were lowered. :)

I agree with what you've said except the green racing BS part. For me it's only acceptable if it's pure PR that doesn't affect racing or the cars at all. Fuel flow though, if it's reasonable, can be a good way to set the engine performance on a desired level while allowing more design freedom. So it's not that bad - it is just badly used. (So I kinda agree on that point too :) )

#106 pizzalover

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 16:28

No matter how you "simplify" aerodynamics, teams will spend a huge part of their bucks there, because it will still be the area where you can gain the "cheapest" speed. Throw them the most restrictive of the regs, they will come up with the most sophisticated solution to get maximum downforce out of it.

Want proof? Your proposal is not exactly far away from current bodywork rules compared to the 2008 regs, and still that´s not stopping the teams working like crazy on the rear bodywork, just as much as back then if not more. No winglets, gaps, or protuberances somewhere doesn´t equal to less work in that area, just to different work done. Not long ago it was all about winglets, now it´s all about packaging and coanda.



We can easily show that you're wrong. What if all car bodies had to be a perfect sphere? The amount of money spent on aerodynamics would be nil.

Now, I'm not suggesting that, but a theoretical two part mould rule would definitely be a large step in that direction. Only the very simplest of shapes would be possible, vastly reducing the number of permutations. You only have to sit down and think about it for a minute and try and design a car body yourself that could be made from a two piece mould.



#107 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 16:53

If it's technology you want, perhaps we should make the cars "automatic". I'm sure the boffins could develop a really efficient system...

If it's gear sticks you want, I suggest you go back to the 80's. Gear sticks belong in touring cars now, not in open wheelers.

#108 uffen

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 18:15

If it's gear sticks you want, I suggest you go back to the 80's. Gear sticks belong in touring cars now, not in open wheelers.



I hate to be the one to break it to you but "open wheelers" represent very old technology. Open wheels went out pre-Model T, for goodness sake.
Wheels themselves are the most ancient technology in existence, if you want to get pedantic. So, F1 cars are based on very old stuff indeed.

I often wonder how the "F1 is all about technology" crowd ever got interested in the series in the first place. I mean, open-wheeled, rear wheel drive, semi-automatic transmissions, un-treated exhaust gases, aerodynamics so primitive the drivers say they "can't race" because of dirty air, drivers secured by belts only (! no air bags!), open cockpits - I mean come on, the whole concept is primitive. How did it attract you?

#109 pdac

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 19:27

I hate to be the one to break it to you but "open wheelers" represent very old technology. Open wheels went out pre-Model T, for goodness sake.
Wheels themselves are the most ancient technology in existence, if you want to get pedantic. So, F1 cars are based on very old stuff indeed.

I often wonder how the "F1 is all about technology" crowd ever got interested in the series in the first place. I mean, open-wheeled, rear wheel drive, semi-automatic transmissions, un-treated exhaust gases, aerodynamics so primitive the drivers say they "can't race" because of dirty air, drivers secured by belts only (! no air bags!), open cockpits - I mean come on, the whole concept is primitive. How did it attract you?


F1 is definitely not the cutting edge of technology. It's the cutting edge of the technology that relates to the rules and regulations of F1. In the real world, the cutting edge is working on cars that drive themselves.

#110 Dzeidzei

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 19:48

Easy. Fire Bernie, Herman & Charlie. You'll see instant improvement.


Especially Hermit and the Old Frog. Tilke somehow manages to design tracks where u need miracles or gadgets (DRC) to pass people...

#111 uffen

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 20:49

F1 is definitely not the cutting edge of technology. It's the cutting edge of the technology that relates to the rules and regulations of F1. In the real world, the cutting edge is working on cars that drive themselves.



So, if the rules required a manual gearbox, and, assuming that the F1 lads used the most cutting edge manual transmission design and materials, everyone would be happy!
There. Everyone gets what they want. I knew we'd get this sorted out.

#112 uffen

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 20:53

If it's gear sticks you want, I suggest you go back to the 80's. Gear sticks belong in touring cars now, not in open wheelers.



So, what you want is: touring cars, which at least resemble road cars with the interior space, doors, closed cockpit, closed wheels, etc., get the "primitive" technology, and the F1 cars, which bear no resemblance to anything on the road and are only useful for racing get the new technology that goes in my grannie's road car?

I can't get there.

#113 ApexMouse

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 21:06

F1 has always been about engineering to go faster. The race was where the engineering was displayed. Touring Cars and suchlike were designed to be race cars with close competition, at least after a few years.

#114 uffen

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 12:10

Every race series is about engineering to go faster (within the rules!). We're talking about driver control.

#115 uffen

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 12:11

Every race series is about engineering to go faster (within the rules!). We're talking about driver control.

#116 juicy sushi

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 12:26

F1 is definitely not the cutting edge of technology. It's the cutting edge of the technology that relates to the rules and regulations of F1. In the real world, the cutting edge is working on cars that drive themselves.

The cutting edge is not Google. They can't build a car, they're only messing about with control systems. The cutting edge are trying to develop commercially viable hydrogen fuel cells.

#117 wj_gibson

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 13:06

The main reason why semi-automatic gearboxes were allowed to remain when the electronics were first banned for 1994 was that they were widely recognised as a cost-saving technology, even then (i.e. fewer engine blow-ups and fewer gearbox failures than would be the case with manual transmissions).

In these cash-strapped times, I very much doubt the sport would ever countenance a return to manual shifting. And it's not even that big a deal. How much skill is really involved in flicking a stick compared with, say, maintaining speed from the turn-in to the apex of the corner? It's overrated.

#118 Kaoru

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 13:11

The cutting edge is not Google. They can't build a car, they're only messing about with control systems. The cutting edge are trying to develop commercially viable hydrogen fuel cells.

Agreed.

Reading the last 2 pages one gets the impression we're clear & really missing the point, which is not 'technology yes or technology no'. Is just about what conditions (rules) to give to this type of car-racing. Not anything else.

Wanna give the 'F-1 series' car whatever X conditions one wants? well, then in anycase that'd have to meet a minimum of requirements in order to make that a sense of a driver racing competition, and not just a development competition...

It's pretty obivous there may still be spin-offs, but again that only depends on what kind of conditions one wants to give onto these cars...

Greetings, , )

(edit: in an 'ideal world' the F-1 series will be the pioneers to introduce the hydrogen powered engines brought by the different marks... -which in fact, is much more 'green' too- but...)

Edited by Kaoru, 18 February 2013 - 13:20.


#119 uffen

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 14:13

The main reason why semi-automatic gearboxes were allowed to remain when the electronics were first banned for 1994 was that they were widely recognised as a cost-saving technology, even then (i.e. fewer engine blow-ups and fewer gearbox failures than would be the case with manual transmissions).

In these cash-strapped times, I very much doubt the sport would ever countenance a return to manual shifting. And it's not even that big a deal. How much skill is really involved in flicking a stick compared with, say, maintaining speed from the turn-in to the apex of the corner? It's overrated.


There is some truth in what you say but engine rev limiters will prevent engine blow ups, not semi-auto gearboxes. That's why Hakkinen spun rather than blew the engine at Monza. Fewer gearbox failures? Perhaps, but failures of auto boxes can be very costly. Overall they save a bit, though.

How much skill in flicking a stick? Try it for 75 laps with a guy like Hamilton hot on your tail. I think maintaining turn-in speed comes second. Besides one rarely "flicks the stick" (or, flicks the paddle) during turn in. Both can upset the car.

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#120 SenorSjon

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 14:21

Search for a Monaco 1992 or 1993 onboard with Schumacher trailling Alesi. They show both onboards. Schumacher hammering the stick shift and Alesi using the semi-auto box.

But when you see older race laps, you can see the driver working to get the best time. Current day technology doesn't permit that. It demands a more fluent style. IMO part due to being underpowered in comparison to the grip levels.

#121 DrProzac

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 19:48

(edit: in an 'ideal world' the F-1 series will be the pioneers to introduce the hydrogen powered engines brought by the different marks... -which in fact, is much more 'green' too- but...)

..for the sole purpose of making the cars faster (not some eco-BS)

#122 Kaoru

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 04:56

^^ ^^ (obviously... :cool: :rotfl: ););)

Edited by Kaoru, 19 February 2013 - 04:57.


#123 August

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 11:36

1. Budget cap. You can make rules like longlife engines to cut costs but that's only temporary, teams will find new ways to spend their money.
2. No longlife engines/gearboxes, the budget cap already limits costs.
3. Bring back tyre war, that belongs to F1. Budget cap ensures you can't spend too much money on tyre testing.
4. Less aero, more mechanical grip. That enbales overtaking without DRS.
5. Have tracks that are more like the old Österreichring rather than Abu Dhabi/Valencia.

#124 Gold

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 20:19

The best drivers used to double declutch on heel and toeing during downshifts. Schumacher used to bang into the wanted slower gear with a massive overrev, Prost used to go by 2's (6th, 4th, 2nd) while double declutching. Senna used to go down the whole box while double declutching.

Going from 6th to 2nd that is EIGHT presses of the clutch in about 3 seconds timed PRECISELY with the downchange AND the Heel & Toe, while braking from 320-60kph using one hand.

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Compare that to just clicking a button and doing NOTHING but pressing the brake. The playstation generation today is on a completely different dimension with regards to driving skills.

Edited by Gold, 21 February 2013 - 01:08.


#125 Skinnyguy

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 22:49

Compare that to just clicking a button and doing NOTHING but pressing the brake. The playstation generation today is on a completely different dimension with regards to driving skills.


The guys today don´t do what those guys did because they don´t have to, not because they can´t.

Take off these ridiculous nostalgia glasses.

Edited by Skinnyguy, 20 February 2013 - 22:50.


#126 SUPRAF1

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 00:17

Compare that to just clicking a button and doing NOTHING but pressing the brake. The playstation generation today is on a completely different dimension with regards to driving skills.


Agreed. Drivers today are on a much higher dimension and calibre.

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#127 Shiroo

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 00:31

Pirelli need to provide tyres made of the rubber not out of the cheese. Last year they were fairly fine. They only needed to bring softer compounds to latter part of the season

#128 Gold

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 01:00

Agreed. Drivers today are on a much higher dimension and calibre.



Yeah exactly. Today the playstation kids have everything at the fingertips, no need to even look away from the road. Back then brake balance and diff were done with levers and the buttons were all over the place. This MP4/6 probably has more buttons all over the cockpit than modern F1 has on the wheel.

No powersteering either so 19-21 year olds probably could not have even driven full GP's and the mean age of drivers was higher. Like how Patrese couldn't physically hang on to the active Williams but Mansell could because he was a stronger man. http://www.riccardop.../motorsport.htm

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Edited by Gold, 21 February 2013 - 01:32.