Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Koenigsegg


  • Please log in to reply
118 replies to this topic

#101 BRG

BRG
  • Member

  • 17,616 posts
  • Joined: September 99

Posted 25 July 2015 - 15:38

Tracks all around the world is pretty much getting shut down by noise restrictions. It is really silly.

http://jalopnik.com/...upid-1718765458

What a deeply stupid and ill-informed article that is, written by a typical know-nothing pillock. The sort of pillock who will contribute a great deal to the demise of racing and any track based activity by his ignorant and selfish attitude.  If Koenigsegg couldn't get a 'production' car under a 103db limit, then they are incompetent. Or more likely, not bothering to try.  I would rather than Spa survived as a race track and Koenigsegg stayed at home in Sweden where they can't do any more damage to relationships with local people.



Advertisement

#102 Canuck

Canuck
  • Member

  • 2,072 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 25 July 2015 - 16:08

Having not read the article you linked, but Koenigsegg's own, you'll find there's no argument from the Swedish crew with the noise limits.  They simply noted that most road-legal production high-power sports cars will all easily pass the noise tests required, because the noise tests don't require you to pass while driving the car in full anger mode (or full joy mode as the case may be) and oft employ various switchable baffles and restrictors to meet the requirements of low noise within the testing parameters, but full power when required.  They felt they could have addressed the volume issue with more time, but that they were unprepared - entirely their own doing and nothing negative about the track's use of the limit. No need to pit Koenigsegg against the citizens around Spa - that was never an issue.



#103 gruntguru

gruntguru
  • Member

  • 6,896 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 04 May 2016 - 04:39

 

Any news on K's pneumatic valve system? It never sounded very likely to me.           

Looks like Mr K. has hooked up with Chinese Company Qoros to progress his camless technology. http://www.gizmag.co...s-engine/43045/

 

A year or two to design and build a complete engine. Not bad. Compact top end as expected.



#104 Greg Locock

Greg Locock
  • Member

  • 5,742 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 04 May 2016 - 08:30

As Cannuck says, passing the euro noise regs, or the various racing series noise regs, is bread and butter for a production car's development engineers. Racing teams find it difficult because it is not their core expertise. 



#105 Kelpiecross

Kelpiecross
  • Member

  • 1,599 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 05 May 2016 - 05:25

Looks like Mr K. has hooked up with Chinese Company Qoros to progress his camless technology. http://www.gizmag.co...s-engine/43045/
 
A year or two to design and build a complete engine. Not bad. Compact top end as expected.


I was so excited by this announcement that I nearly **** my pants.

#106 Canuck

Canuck
  • Member

  • 2,072 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 05 December 2016 - 06:01

http://www.enginelab...lve-technology/

The latest on their camless technology from the Drive.

#107 imaginesix

imaginesix
  • Member

  • 7,525 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 05 December 2016 - 10:45

Looks like Mr K. has hooked up with Chinese Company Qoros to progress his camless technology. http://www.gizmag.co...s-engine/43045/
 
A year or two to design and build a complete engine. Not bad. Compact top end as expected.

When do I get my royalty cheque?

http://forums.autosp...gy/#entry444330

#108 blkirk

blkirk
  • Member

  • 318 posts
  • Joined: March 00

Posted 23 May 2018 - 21:07

Dr. Amir Khajepour at University of Waterloo thinks he has a way to do fully controlled valves using hydraulics.  The articles are a little light on detail, and the animation on the uwaterloo site is hard to follow.  It looks like they have an interesting solution, though.  I wonder how well those valve cylinders still seal after 5 years of operation.  Traditional valves can already have leaks around the valve stems and they don't have pressurized oil behind them.

 

http://www.asme.org/...mbustion-part-1

http://www.asme.org/...mbustion-part-2

https://uwaterloo.ca...-hybrid-engines



#109 gruntguru

gruntguru
  • Member

  • 6,896 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 23 May 2018 - 21:51

I don't see sealing as an issue. The valve stem seals could be isolated from the hydraulic actuators. Absence of side loads means longer guide and seal life. The seals within the actuators themselves would not need to be totally leak free. They would operate with engine oil and any loss from the actuator would remain within the engine.



#110 gruntguru

gruntguru
  • Member

  • 6,896 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 05 February 2019 - 22:39

"Dynamic Fuel Management" from GM uses cylinder skipping in any of 17 possible sequences to run their latest 6.2L V8 on as few as two cylinders. This is an electro-mechanical system that "latches/un-latches" hydraulic lifters to deactivate the valves on specific cylinders.  http://blog.consumer...uel-management/

 

Because there are mechanical "latching" components involved, the system doesn't seem to activate a particular cylinder on a cycle by cycle basis (eg fire 2, skip 1) so still falls short of the cylinder deactivation capabilities of a system like "Freevalve".


Edited by gruntguru, 05 February 2019 - 22:39.


#111 gruntguru

gruntguru
  • Member

  • 6,896 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 10 March 2020 - 03:28

Will the Koenigsegg Gemera be the first car to market with Freevalve technology? https://www.cnet.com...r-debut-geneva/

Unlike most Koenigseggs it has 3 cylinders and 4 seats. Slow? 1.9s 0-100k. Top speed 400k+



#112 Kelpiecross

Kelpiecross
  • Member

  • 1,599 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 10 March 2020 - 04:49

 Well - I'm certainly excited.  



#113 manolis

manolis
  • Member

  • 850 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 10 March 2020 - 05:44

Hello Gruntgugu.

 

If the valves of the “free valve” engine of Koenigsegg’s Gemera are actuated by compressed air:

 

With 3 cylinders and 2lit capacity, each cylinder is 660cc (about as much as the Ducati Superleggera 1299).

The over-square Ducati has 39.5mm diameter exhaust valve.

The exhaust valves of Gemera are, say, only 35mm in diameter.

  

To make 600bhp with a 2lit engine, you need some four times overcharging, which increases the pressure inside the cylinder at the end of the expansion to more than 15 bar, which means that in order to open the exhaust valve you need some 10cm2 * 15 bar = 150Kgf without taking under account the inertia of the valve and its actuator.

 

How they apply such a force on the exhaust valve stem?

 

What is the pressure of their pneumatic system?

 

 

At the Engine Expo 2009, Stuttgart Germany, I visited the booth of Cargine Engineering (later purchased by Koenigsegg and renamed to “Free Valve”) and ask them how they manage to open the exhaust valves (not in heavily supercharged engines, but in naturally aspirated ones). Their answer: “we work on it…”

 

I just wanted to compare their valve system with the Desmodromic VVA exhibited in pattakon’s booth.

 

Thanks

Manolis Pattakos



#114 gruntguru

gruntguru
  • Member

  • 6,896 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 11 March 2020 - 03:08

Two points.

With four times overcharging the pressure in the exhaust port will be at least 4 bar absolute so the differential pressure acting on the exhaust valve will be 11 bar not 15.

Assuming you start with a 2 litre NA engine capable of 200 bhp (reasonable assumption with unlimited valve timing) the MAP required to produce 600 bhp will be less than 3 bar ie less than 30 psi boost.



#115 Kelpiecross

Kelpiecross
  • Member

  • 1,599 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 15 March 2020 - 05:18

 Amazing new valve system!  Said to be "Many times better than the Kookedaneggg VVA"    - (quoting myself). 

 

https://www.empa.ch/web/s604/flexwork



#116 manolis

manolis
  • Member

  • 850 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 17 March 2020 - 05:02

Hello Gruntguru

 

You write:

“Two points.

With four times overcharging the pressure in the exhaust port will be at least 4 bar absolute so the differential pressure acting on the exhaust valve will be 11 bar not 15.

Assuming you start with a 2 litre NA engine capable of 200 bhp (reasonable assumption with unlimited valve timing) the MAP required to produce 600 bhp will be less than 3 bar ie less than 30 psi boost.”

 

 

Quote from https://www.koenigse...specifications/

 

 

INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINE (ICE)

 

• Koenigsegg Tiny Friendly Giant Twin Turbo Freevalve 3-cylinder Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) with dry sump lubrication
• Compression: 9.5:1 - Bore: 95 mm - stroke: 93.5 mm
• Closed-loop combustion control with in-cylinder pressure sensing
• 440 kW (600 bhp) at 7500 rpm, red line at 8500 rpm
• Torque: 600 Nm from 2000 rpm to 7000 rpm
• ICE is mounted midship and powers the front axle together with one E-motor through a propshaft
• Engine weight: 70 kg

 

E-MOTORS

 

• Three Electric Motors: One for each rear wheel with 500 bhp and 1000 Nm each and one E-motor on the crankshaft 400 bhp and 500 Nm to power the front wheels (together with the ICE)

 

 

DIMENSIONS

 

• Total length: 4975 mm
• Total width: 1988 mm (without outer rear-view cameras)
• Total height: 1295 mm
• Wheelbase: 3000 mm
• Fuel capacity: 75 L
• HV Battery: 800 V 16.6 kWh, liquid-cooled
• Dry weight: 1715 kg
• Curb weight: 1850 kg

• Ride Height: 117 mm front, 117 mm rear
• Front lifting system activated: +35 mm
• Total trunk volume (rear and front): 200 L
• Optional roof box

 

 

 

End of Quote

 

 

 

In the following slide (from the above video):

 

Koenigsegg_Gemera.jpg

 

they are shown restoring valve springs (big ones).

 

At the opening of the exhaust valve, the pneumatic system has to take the force from the pressure inside the cylinder (minus the instant pressure in the exhaust port, which is not, at all conditions of operation, high), it has also to take the inertia of the valve (rev limit 8,500rpm), it has also to take the force of the restoring valve spring.

 

I.e. the pneumatic system has to operate at high pressure.

 

 

 

From the following plot:

 

Koenigsegg_Gemera_Power.png

 

it seems that the extreme power (600PS) of the ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) engine of Gemera is not really significant for its performance (acceleration, final speed).

 

At peak power, only the 1/3, or so, of the power comes from the ICE, the rest is from the battery.

 

If instead of 440kW, the engine provides only 90kW peak power, the performance would drop only slightly (760+90 = 850kW instead of 800+400 = 1200kW).

 

Actually the sum of the peak powers of the three electric motors is not 760kW but ~1000kW, with the one electric motor being on the crankshaft.

 

What dominates in Koenigsegg’s Gemera is its electric system, not its internal combustion engine; the internal combustion engine is there to charge the battery.

 

 

Despite its lightweight engine (only 70Kg), Gemera’s dry weight is 1715 kg.

 

 

 

With 70Kgf weight the Gemera engine makes 440kW (600bhp), which means a specific power of 8.5bhp/Kg (6.3kW/Kg, 3.9bhp/lb).

 

And this engine is green and fuel efficient.

 

All the rest engine makers, of super-cars and of normal cars, have a serious problem.

 

 

 

Questions:

 

For an engine whose main duty is to charge a battery, what is the significance of having one of the most advanced  / most variable VVA's?

 

Shouldn't the engine be tuned at specific revs and load?

 

For a car that is mainly electric, what is the reasoning of having 600bhp peak power from its ICE?

 

What about the vibrations from the three big cylinders? (after a period of quiet, vibration free electric cruise, the battery is discharged and the engine is cranked).

 

So far, is there a free valve engine in a car for tests?

 

Judging from the specifications of Gemera's engine, shouldn't Koenigsegg start producing, in millions, a smaller version (say, 500cc / 150bhp) of it, and shell it to all automakers ?

 

 

Thanks

Manolis Pattakos



#117 desmo

desmo
  • Tech Forum Host

  • 20,275 posts
  • Joined: January 00

Posted 17 March 2020 - 13:42

It feels like there will be an all-electric car fleet powered by fusion generators before any of these alternative valve systems are ever actually built and adopted at scale.  The Hyundai VVT system, however, is quite clever, gets most of the theoretically possible upsides, and it actually exists in numbers.



#118 gruntguru

gruntguru
  • Member

  • 6,896 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 18 March 2020 - 09:02

Questions:

 

For an engine whose main duty is to charge a battery, what is the significance of having one of the most advanced  / most variable VVA's?

 

Shouldn't the engine be tuned at specific revs and load?

 

For a car that is mainly electric, what is the reasoning of having 600bhp peak power from its ICE?

 

What about the vibrations from the three big cylinders? (after a period of quiet, vibration free electric cruise, the battery is discharged and the engine is cranked).

 

So far, is there a free valve engine in a car for tests?

 

Judging from the specifications of Gemera's engine, shouldn't Koenigsegg start producing, in millions, a smaller version (say, 500cc / 150bhp) of it, and shell it to all automakers ?

Some thoughts on your questions.

 

 1. Is the main duty to charge the battery? There is also a direct mechanical coupling between engine and wheels and as you say, it is a 600bhp engine so is more than capable of propelling the car and charging simultaneously.

 

 2. The engine can be optimised at all revs and loads.

 

 3. See 1 above.

 

 4. It only has 50km of electric-only range (I assume they do not allow the battery below a certain state of charge to keep full performance available) so the ICE operates for most of its 1000km range. Mazda offer very smooth quiet vehicles with 2.5 litre 4 cylinder. No doubt Koenigsegg have the vibrations sorted.

 

 5. The first Freevalve test car was built in 2008.

 

 6. That is not Koenigsegg's marketplace. Freevalve has been licensed to other companies in that space. Tesla didn't start with city runabouts or even a model 3.

 

 

On the question of air pressure. The "Restoring springs" do not exert much force at valve closed. The pneumatic piston has a larger diameter than the valve seat. 20 bar air pressure would provide a significant force - approximately 2kN.


Edited by gruntguru, 18 March 2020 - 09:03.


#119 Kelpiecross

Kelpiecross
  • Member

  • 1,599 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 18 March 2020 - 10:57

  Never mind the K-egg - the whole thing is impractical crap.  

 

  However  - the Hyundai VVT system really is interesting.   It appears to be a reworking  of the "eccentric drive" Rover VVT system  from the   K Series/MGF.    (Interestingly I think the original idea  came from a private inventor in the UK).    

 The Rover VVT worked very well and had the distinction of being the only  continuously  variable duration, at full lift,  all-mechanical  VVT arrangement  ever in series production on the road.   Now the Hyundai VVT has that same claim to fame.    

 And it really does appear  to be fairly effective having a 70 degree duration range.   Clearly it is a bit complicated and at very long or very short duration the eccentric is busily working back and forth  (which may cause wear).  I would imagine that it is arranged so that at normal road speeds  the eccentric  is driving "straight through".    

  I often wondered what happened to the  Rover VVT  because it seemed to be such a good idea - looks like it has gone to a good home.  Well done Hyundai.    

 

 https://www.bing.com...EAA41&FORM=VIRE