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Fans are bored by excellence


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#1 oetzi

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 00:58

Who doesn't enjoy the sight of a car sideways? Or unburnt fuel igniting? Or sparks when a car scrapes the ground?

An engineer would be the right answer, more often than not.

Let's reclaim racing from the set-squares and pointy-heads. They have their place, they make some of the most interesting things there are, many of them are great fun, but racing's meant to be about more than who can do the best calculations.

More variables, less analysis. More real stuff, less simulation. More fun, less work. More improvisation, less plan.

You know it makes sense.



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#2 itsademo

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 01:07

Who doesn't enjoy the sight of a car sideways? Or unburnt fuel igniting? Or sparks when a car scrapes the ground?

An engineer would be the right answer, more often than not.

Let's reclaim racing from the set-squares and pointy-heads. They have their place, they make some of the most interesting things there are, many of them are great fun, but racing's meant to be about more than who can do the best calculations.

More variables, less analysis. More real stuff, less simulation. More fun, less work. More improvisation, less plan.

You know it makes sense.


to you maybe but to the teams its about winning as thats what gets the sponsors to pay the bills

#3 rhukkas

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 01:10

to you maybe but to the teams its about winning as thats what gets the sponsors to pay the bills


Not necessarily. Sponsors pay for exposure relative to cost and other things as well. No point sponsoring someone winning races when there are only 4 people are watching.

#4 gm914

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 01:13

OP, the NASCAR community on Autosport agrees and will welcome you with open arms to join us for the 2013 season. Only 17 days to go.
We have all that stuff, three times a week. Every week.

NASCAR. It's teh dArk side. :)

#5 oetzi

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 01:17

OP, the NASCAR community on Autosport agrees and will welcome you with open arms to join us for the 2013 season. Only 17 days to go.
We have all that stuff, three times a week. Every week.

NASCAR. It's teh dArk side. :)

:rotfl:

I have standards :kiss:

#6 fer312t

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 01:34

Formula 1 would be much better if they drastically curtailed the telemetry and completely eliminated car/pit radio transmissions, so that the actual race is again mostly the domain of the driver. They should be setting the pace dynamically by the feel and behavior of the car...and not simply driving to target lap-times the engineers deem appropriate at a given moment.

#7 gm914

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 01:40

:rotfl:

I have standards :kiss:

No, you have pretensions. And by the sounds of it, standards that are not being met (and are unrealistic) in the motorsport of your choice.
Duly noted.

As you were.
:kiss:




#8 Brother Fox

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 02:27

Formula 1 would be much better if they drastically curtailed the telemetry and completely eliminated car/pit radio transmissions, so that the actual race is again mostly the domain of the driver. They should be setting the pace dynamically by the feel and behavior of the car...and not simply driving to target lap-times the engineers deem appropriate at a given moment.

Car to pit radio, i could live with. But I'd love to see a ban on pit to car radio.

#9 lbennie

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 02:33

Who doesn't enjoy the sight of a car sideways? Or unburnt fuel igniting? Or sparks when a car scrapes the ground?

An engineer would be the right answer, more often than not.

Let's reclaim racing from the set-squares and pointy-heads. They have their place, they make some of the most interesting things there are, many of them are great fun, but racing's meant to be about more than who can do the best calculations.

More variables, less analysis. More real stuff, less simulation. More fun, less work. More improvisation, less plan.

You know it makes sense.


so pretty much force them all to build bad racing cars.

then whoever fails at this the most... wins the championship.... interesting..



#10 MaxisOne

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 03:03

:rotfl:

I have standards :kiss:


ROFLMAO !!!! :rotfl: :rotfl:

I caught myself occasionally peeping at a race or two last season .. then i said to myself ... noooooooo !!!

bad bad bad !!!

#11 bourbon

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 04:04

I have always enjoyed clean, fast, brilliant racing over the mash ups, flights, malfunctions and blow ups. I thnk I might be in a minority on that, but there you have it. So it is not engineers v. the rest of the world...

What is very odd that when it comes to deep space, I am just the opposite.

#12 mnmracer

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 04:21

Car to pit radio, i could live with. But I'd love to see a ban on pit to car radio.

And miss Rocky telling Vettel his car is gonna blow up? :rotfl:

#13 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 05:08

Formula 1 would be much better if they drastically curtailed the telemetry and completely eliminated car/pit radio transmissions, so that the actual race is again mostly the domain of the driver. They should be setting the pace dynamically by the feel and behavior of the car...and not simply driving to target lap-times the engineers deem appropriate at a given moment.

Even engineers and drivers agree with this. :up:

#14 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 05:09

Who doesn't enjoy the sight of a car sideways? Or unburnt fuel igniting? Or sparks when a car scrapes the ground?

An engineer would be the right answer, more often than not.

That's simply untrue :confused:

#15 gm914

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 05:30

ROFLMAO !!!! :rotfl: :rotfl:

I caught myself occasionally peeping at a race or two last season .. then i said to myself ... noooooooo !!!

bad bad bad !!!

If you can pick yourself up off the floor for a minute- let me ask you.
Why is that?

#16 Shiroo

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 05:43

when I was young chap I used to love NASCAR. Especially car crashes lol. And to this day, I still think that NASCAR is all about crashes (it isnt?)

#17 johnmhinds

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 05:47

If you can pick yourself up off the floor for a minute- let me ask you.
Why is that?


The only time anything in NASCAR gets featured on UK tv is if there is a big crash or a faux scandal about drivers crashing into other on purpose.

It doesn't have a great reputation for high quality racing over here sadly, which is a real shame because it can be enjoyable at times if a bit monotonous with the length of some of the races.

Edited by johnmhinds, 08 February 2013 - 05:48.


#18 gm914

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 06:02

when I was young chap I used to love NASCAR. Especially car crashes lol. And to this day, I still think that NASCAR is all about crashes (it isnt?)

Not really. About as much as F1 is about overtaking.

I admit NASCAR gets a bad rap or is unfairly (IMO) categorized, and I'm not about to go up against the hundreds of 'racing fans' on Autosport who know better.

I will add though, that in the racing calendar, not once am I bored with a single weekend.
Although I have an open mind and don't just follow one driver on one team in one series.
Perhaps that's my problem. :well:

#19 Andrew Hope

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 06:15

More interesting things happen in the first month of the Nascar season than in the entirety of the F1 season, and this is coming from someone who loves F1.

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#20 V3TT3L

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 06:37

"The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity." - Dorothy Parker

#21 f1rules

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 06:49

Its exactly the excellence that differs f1 from other main stream motorracing, and thats why i watch. Striving for perfection. The devil is in the detail and even that said, i think the last few years with pirelli, brought back a lot of interesting racing/fights. That doesnt mean the rules cannot be tweaked offcourse. Forexamble radiocom. I think all should be available to the viewers.

Edited by f1rules, 08 February 2013 - 06:51.


#22 JRizzle86

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 08:36

Who doesn't enjoy the sight of a car sideways? Or unburnt fuel igniting? Or sparks when a car scrapes the ground?

An engineer would be the right answer, more often than not.

Let's reclaim racing from the set-squares and pointy-heads. They have their place, they make some of the most interesting things there are, many of them are great fun, but racing's meant to be about more than who can do the best calculations.

More variables, less analysis. More real stuff, less simulation. More fun, less work. More improvisation, less plan.

You know it makes sense.


Pretty sure Engineers designed the cars that went sideways and had unburnt fuel igniting or scraping the ground. Pretty sure they relished the concept and still do. If you know how Engineers work you would know they work to the constraints given to them from up above. if you wanna blame anyone blame the politicians, blame the general public for their changing attitudes towards the automobile, racing cars and the internal combustion engine.

Without these engineers you so call of you wouldn't even have basics required for motorsport.

Edited by JRizzle86, 08 February 2013 - 08:38.


#23 Rentta

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 08:46

Who doesn't enjoy the sight of a car sideways? Or unburnt fuel igniting? Or sparks when a car scrapes the ground?

Well they didn't do that because it looked cool and low riding was also pretty unsafe. I got your point but would i like to change those things... no

#24 Dipster

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 08:48

Formula 1 would be much better if they drastically curtailed the telemetry and completely eliminated car/pit radio transmissions, so that the actual race is again mostly the domain of the driver. They should be setting the pace dynamically by the feel and behavior of the car...and not simply driving to target lap-times the engineers deem appropriate at a given moment.



I agree. Teams could use all their gizmos setting up the car prior to races, but when the flag drops the car would need to be reliable and the driver competent! They'd be on their own.

#25 AyrtonSauna

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 09:08

Who doesn't enjoy the sight of a car sideways? Or unburnt fuel igniting? Or sparks when a car scrapes the ground?

An engineer would be the right answer, more often than not.

Let's reclaim racing from the set-squares and pointy-heads. They have their place, they make some of the most interesting things there are, many of them are great fun, but racing's meant to be about more than who can do the best calculations.

More variables, less analysis. More real stuff, less simulation. More fun, less work. More improvisation, less plan.

You know it makes sense.


Nothing to worry about mate.It's usually the drivers that get most of the credit and that's one thing that hasn't changed since racing began.The day that cars drive themselves with sensors in a pure engineering duel between Newey and Cluey etc.. will be the day I stop watching racing.The drivers make all the difference from a sporting and entertainment point of view and even though I love sideways and sparks it's still awesome to see a great driver getting the most out of his car no matter how good or bad that car is when they all appear to be runnning on rails.
It's the drivers calculations that are most impressive.Calculating braking points,driving lines,overtaking points on the go etc....not just strategy


#26 oetzi

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 09:10

Formula 1 would be much better if they drastically curtailed the telemetry and completely eliminated car/pit radio transmissions, so that the actual race is again mostly the domain of the driver. They should be setting the pace dynamically by the feel and behavior of the car...and not simply driving to target lap-times the engineers deem appropriate at a given moment.

:up:

#27 oetzi

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 09:11

Pretty sure Engineers designed the cars that went sideways and had unburnt fuel igniting or scraping the ground. Pretty sure they relished the concept and still do. If you know how Engineers work you would know they work to the constraints given to them from up above. if you wanna blame anyone blame the politicians, blame the general public for their changing attitudes towards the automobile, racing cars and the internal combustion engine.

Without these engineers you so call of you wouldn't even have basics required for motorsport.

I'm not having a go at engineers. Quite the opposite. I'm saying they've got so good at their jobs that from the outside it can all look a little dull these days. That's a compliment to them.

#28 oetzi

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 09:12

Nothing to worry about mate.It's usually the drivers that get most of the credit and that's one thing that hasn't changed since racing began.The day that cars drive themselves with sensors in a pure engineering duel between Newey and Cluey etc.. will be the day I stop watching racing.The drivers make all the difference from a sporting and entertainment point of view and even though I love sideways and sparks it's still awesome to see a great driver getting the most out of his car no matter how good or bad that car is when they all appear to be runnning on rails.
It's the drivers calculations that are most impressive.Calculating braking points,driving lines,overtaking points on the go etc....not just strategy

Fair point.

#29 oetzi

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 09:14

Not really. About as much as F1 is about overtaking.

I admit NASCAR gets a bad rap or is unfairly (IMO) categorized, and I'm not about to go up against the hundreds of 'racing fans' on Autosport who know better.

I will add though, that in the racing calendar, not once am I bored with a single weekend.
Although I have an open mind and don't just follow one driver on one team in one series.
Perhaps that's my problem. :well:

Doesn't sound like I'm the only one with pretensions :cat:

I find NASCAR a bit monotonous. All oval racing, to be honest. And I hate pace cars and full course yellows and all that. I can see why they have them, but I don't like what it does to the race. Just my opinion, sorry if it offends your sensibilities :kiss:

#30 oetzi

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 09:15

I also have the defence of drink - lots of it :drunk:

#31 JRizzle86

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 09:27

I'm not having a go at engineers. Quite the opposite. I'm saying they've got so good at their jobs that from the outside it can all look a little dull these days. That's a compliment to them.


Quote

Who doesn't enjoy the sight of a car sideways? Or unburnt fuel igniting? Or sparks when a car scrapes the ground?

An engineer would be the right answer, more often than not.

Let's reclaim racing from the set-squares and pointy-heads.


I think you were clearly having a go at Engineers, far from complimenting them.

#32 oetzi

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 09:30

Quote

Who doesn't enjoy the sight of a car sideways? Or unburnt fuel igniting? Or sparks when a car scrapes the ground?

An engineer would be the right answer, more often than not.

Let's reclaim racing from the set-squares and pointy-heads.


I think you were clearly having a go at Engineers, far from complimenting them.

No, I wasn't.

If you read that with a little discernment, you should see it means they've got so good at their jobs that the sport is less exciting to watch.

#33 MarileneRiddle

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 10:47

Maybe I am really strange but I like F1 for its incredible speed. Which means seasons like 2011 is fine by me. After all, I also support Usain Bolt. So racing = as fast as possible to me (who cares about overtaking?) :p

#34 Buttoneer

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 11:26

No, I wasn't.

If you read that with a little discernment, you should see it means they've got so good at their jobs that the sport is less exciting to watch.


If you wrote with a little discernment, "who doesn't enjoy the sight...? An engineer... Let's reclaim racing from the set-squares and pointy-heads" would not have read like criticism of engineers. It's not JRizzle86's fault, it's yours, but don't worry because if you read my post with a little discernment you'll see that I'm complimenting you.

#35 Longtimefan

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 11:40

I must admit I really do miss sparks flying from the rear.

I also miss engines going BOOM!, I'd remove the rev limiter and allow the teams to develop their engines.
Also I'd ban semi-automatic gearboxes, make them use manual ones. That way occasionally a driver will miss a gear allowing the person behind him to attack. :)


#36 noikeee

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:04

I agree with the general feeling, but this is a bizarre time to be raising these questions when we've just had quite an hazardous F1 season. It's not like the 2004-2006 period when the level of excellence was so high that only really 2 teams could win at best, the cars, tyres and standards of driving were such that the front-runners made barely any mistakes, and the race was a constant sprint thanks to everlasting tyres and refuelling. Plus qualifying made all the difference in the world as overtaking was nearly impossible thanks to that excellence, so we had passing in the pits by the slightest of details in race strategy.

These days you have 6 teams that can win, at least 3 guys fighting for the title every year, loads of mistakes, self-destructing tyres and DRS facilitating overtaking, action every lap. Okay the cars don't go sideways or shoot sparks out of their asses, and sometimes it feels like the show is a bit artificial and over the top, but trust me in terms of action we're a hell lot better these days. It's really nothing like the fantastically boring refined excellence of a few years ago.

#37 oetzi

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:29

If you wrote with a little discernment, "who doesn't enjoy the sight...? An engineer... Let's reclaim racing from the set-squares and pointy-heads" would not have read like criticism of engineers. It's not JRizzle86's fault, it's yours, but don't worry because if you read my post with a little discernment you'll see that I'm complimenting you.

Pah. You wouldn't recognise a bit of cheery banter if it sneaked up behind you and pinched you on the bum :kiss:

#38 Jacobss

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 13:13

I agree with the general feeling, but this is a bizarre time to be raising these questions when we've just had quite an hazardous F1 season. It's not like the 2004-2006 period when the level of excellence was so high that only really 2 teams could win at best, the cars, tyres and standards of driving were such that the front-runners made barely any mistakes, and the race was a constant sprint thanks to everlasting tyres and refuelling. Plus qualifying made all the difference in the world as overtaking was nearly impossible thanks to that excellence, so we had passing in the pits by the slightest of details in race strategy.

These days you have 6 teams that can win, at least 3 guys fighting for the title every year, loads of mistakes, self-destructing tyres and DRS facilitating overtaking, action every lap. Okay the cars don't go sideways or shoot sparks out of their asses, and sometimes it feels like the show is a bit artificial and over the top, but trust me in terms of action we're a hell lot better these days. It's really nothing like the fantastically boring refined excellence of a few years ago.

When you would only remove DRS, I would be 100% with current F1. I agree with you. :clap:

#39 Sakae

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 14:21

No, I wasn't.

If you read that with a little discernment, you should see it means they've got so good at their jobs that the sport is less exciting to watch.

I think that your displeasure is misdirected onto wrong people. Technical staff operates within constrains of specifications imposed upon them. When everyone catches up with technology limits within those restrictions, you have in effect new series in which each team looks like a copy of their rival. Remedy is actually simple; change normative restrictions, unshackle creativity and you might see a car arriving to the finish line 40 sec adrift from P2, rather than 2 sec as we see often these days. I think that would be exciting to watch.

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#40 pdac

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 14:43

Formula 1 would be much better if they drastically curtailed the telemetry and completely eliminated car/pit radio transmissions, so that the actual race is again mostly the domain of the driver. They should be setting the pace dynamically by the feel and behavior of the car...and not simply driving to target lap-times the engineers deem appropriate at a given moment.

Why would you not just eliminate all telemetry? It should just be: get the car in the best shape possible, put the driver in and let them go. Would save some money in in equipment costs too.

#41 Tuxy

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 14:54

I don't know if I'm more annoyed than bored.

I don't see Formula 1 as the pinnacle of Motorsport anymore. I see it as a showcase for brilliant to devise strategies to circumvent the rules. F1 cars aren't designed the way they are because it's the absolutely best solution to get around the track. It serves to highlight all the rules in play that dictate and govern the sport. I guess there's no way around that but when road cars are showcasing more sophistication than F1 cars, you start lose interest in that aspect of the sport. Why can't F1 cars for example have active aero for example?

The formula needs to change somehow. For starters, I propose make everyone race the entire season on only 6 tanks of fuel; testing and all. :p



#42 Sausage

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 16:09

I don't see Formula 1 as the pinnacle of Motorsport anymore. I see it as a showcase for brilliant to devise strategies to circumvent the rules. F1 cars aren't designed the way they are because it's the absolutely best solution to get around the track. It serves to highlight all the rules in play that dictate and govern the sport. I guess there's no way around that but when road cars are showcasing more sophistication than F1 cars, you start lose interest in that aspect of the sport. Why can't F1 cars for example have active aero for example?


Because with the latest technology a driver would be the weak link in the car probably instead of what fans desire to be the more important factor: driver skill. I don't disagree, it's just that times have caught up to this aspect of F1.

#43 BoschKurve

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 16:24

I don't know if I'm more annoyed than bored.

I don't see Formula 1 as the pinnacle of Motorsport anymore. I see it as a showcase for brilliant to devise strategies to circumvent the rules. F1 cars aren't designed the way they are because it's the absolutely best solution to get around the track. It serves to highlight all the rules in play that dictate and govern the sport. I guess there's no way around that but when road cars are showcasing more sophistication than F1 cars, you start lose interest in that aspect of the sport. Why can't F1 cars for example have active aero for example?

The formula needs to change somehow. For starters, I propose make everyone race the entire season on only 6 tanks of fuel; testing and all. :p


My biggest problem with the current formula is how restrictive the rule book has become. It stifles the ability to see an assortment of engineering approaches/philosophies that used to be available because there is very little room to work with. Everyone is limited by this which can be good depending on what one wants out of the racing. I'd personally prefer F1 to not continue down the road of being an open-wheel spec series. I miss a lot of the uniqueness the series had once. But that doesn't seem to sell anymore in the 21st century, or the belief is that for anything to be enjoyable in sport, things have to be kept as even as possible among teams.

#44 Gridfire

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 17:19

I like F1 how it is right now. To me F1 is a sport fought by teams of engineers. The drivers are just the squishy unreliable bits that are unfortunately mandated by the rules. F1 has brought masses of car innovations driven by the desire to be ultra efficient, powerful and lightweight all at once, and I enjoy the battle fought out principally on the drawing board.

But then I'm a geeky engineering type myself who doesn't generally care for most sports played by overpaid idiots.

#45 bourbon

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 17:41

I do not understand trying to reinvent F1. It reinvents itself. Eventually it will circle around to hit on many things people want or miss. But seriously, the complaining is ridiculous. Either watch it for what it is or go find another motorsport series more to your liking. The end.

#46 Buttoneer

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 17:48

But...sparks!

#47 BoschKurve

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 17:52

I do not understand trying to reinvent F1. It reinvents itself. Eventually it will circle around to hit on many things people want or miss. But seriously, the complaining is ridiculous. Either watch it for what it is or go find another motorsport series more to your liking. The end.


As a consumer I am entitled to voice my opinion if I do not like a product as it currently exists. Progress doesn't occur from complacency and the belief that one should accept things because it might offend some. If people accepted things blindly with no desire to seek improvement, I imagine we might still be living in caves painting on walls. Progress comes from the desire to improve things.

#48 MarileneRiddle

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 18:07

As a consumer I am entitled to voice my opinion if I do not like a product as it currently exists. Progress doesn't occur from complacency and the belief that one should accept things because it might offend some. If people accepted things blindly with no desire to seek improvement, I imagine we might still be living in caves painting on walls. Progress comes from the desire to improve things.

I think everyone is entitled to voice their opinions. But isn't it strange that most people on this thread (not necessarily you) seem to think going back to the old configuration of F1 is progress? I think that just defeats the whole purpose. Sure, there are days when we look back upon the old times and think it is better. But overall I have to say that removing aerodynamics and going back to pure engine power is going backwards. Why use so much more fuel when the proper shaping of the car can bring up the speed as well?

Every now and again, I think I would have loved to be a princess in medieval times. Then I think of the lack of air conditioning and the internet and I thank God I live in the 21st century. :lol:

#49 bourbon

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 18:14

As a consumer I am entitled to voice my opinion if I do not like a product as it currently exists. Progress doesn't occur from complacency and the belief that one should accept things because it might offend some. If people accepted things blindly with no desire to seek improvement, I imagine we might still be living in caves painting on walls. Progress comes from the desire to improve things.


You do have a right to voice your opinion, so do I. F1 can't meet all of the contradictory expectations and desires of the millions of fans. F1 progresses constantly and whether the progression is an "improvement" is completely subjective.

#50 katmen

katmen
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Posted 08 February 2013 - 18:15

OP, the NASCAR community on Autosport agrees and will welcome you with open arms to join us for the 2013 season. Only 17 days to go.
We have all that stuff, three times a week. Every week.

NASCAR. It's teh dArk side. :)


+ me :D