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Alonso becomes harder to understand


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#1 mnmracer

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 16:09

To make sure everyone understands (please don't go off-topic), the intended topic is the validity of Alonso's claims and why he does it

I'm not sure what to do with Alonso.
There's been a lot of discussion about how good or bad the Ferrari really was, and Alonso's efforts in downtuning the car's pace in the media. But I'm just short of thinking he's just completely lost it now. His latest comment:

"At the end of the year we were quite far from [pace-setters] Red Bull and McLaren, in a group with force Force India and Sauber behind Lotus," -link


I think not even the biggest Alonso fan would argue that they were anything but the third fastest car in the latter half. But if there was still some doubt, let's just look at the numbers from Hungary on:

  • Vettel: 171 points
  • Alonso: 124 points
  • Button: 120 points
  • Kimi: 109 points
  • Massa: 99 points
  • Hamilton: 98 points
  • Webber: 59 points
  • Hülkenberg: 44 points
  • Grosjean: 35 points
  • Kobayashi: 27 points
  • Perez: 19 points
  • di Resta: 19 points
  • Red Bull: 295
  • Ferrari: 223
  • McLaren: 218
  • Lotus: 144
  • Force India: 63
  • Sauber: 46

Even if believe in Alonso's 0.6 second talent, Massa had double the points of those Alonso claims were as fast or faster than Ferrari. Massa was just 10 points short of scoring as much as Force India and Sauber combined, who were apparently in the same group.

Even just taking qualifying, which some ascribe to being indicative of race pace (big if), of the 60 times a Lotus, Force India or Sauber could have been faster than Massa (again, let's assume the worst of the car), 20 times is hardly shocking.

By taking the latter half of the year, it's actually doing Alonso a favor, as taking anything closer to the actual end, only makes the comment further from the truth.

When you take out the Lotusses, 9 out of 40 shows the rediculousness of even including Force India and Sauber.
Fernando is definitely one of the three best drivers out there right now, but why the constant need for these kind of comments that are rediculous on every conceivable level?

Edited by mnmracer, 20 February 2013 - 16:11.


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#2 Burtros

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 16:14

I heard this comment last night on the sky day 1 test review and raised my eyebrows a little.... a long way from the truth wasnt it!!

Hes a clever bloke, so there has to be some motive behind it all if you ask me. What it could be though, I dont know.

#3 JRizzle86

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 16:18

I think Alonso likes to play down things quite a lot. He has a knack not to over estimate things or make things look better that they actually look. To be fair it is a trait that probably works well for him and rarely makes him look stupid in the long run. I am far from one of his fans but I know he is clever and likes to play mind games with the competition.

#4 tjkoyen

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 16:18

Half the stuff he says is just mind games and to stir the pot a little bit.

#5 Vieras

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 16:21

There was everytime at least one Ferrari driver in the podium in the last 8 races. Double podium in the last race.

#6 joshb

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 16:23

He thrives on playing the underdog role, hence the results he got before the Ferrari became competitive enough to be podium on merit.

Its what happens when he is expected to win, when the car is right there, that is a different challenge

#7 PretentiousBread

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 16:27

Talking about qualifying pace, he is absolutely correct. Ferrari was in a group with Lotus, Sauber, Force India & Williams in the latter part of last season, and a clear step below McLaren and Red Bull.

Race day was a different story, but they were still worse than McLaren and Red Bull in the last 3 fly aways.

Edited by PretentiousBread, 20 February 2013 - 16:36.


#8 tkulla

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 16:45

It seems to me that Alonso is the most conscious of his legacy amongst the current crop of drivers. He's constantly making himself the hero by playing the public relations game, and he definitely has skill in this area. He is determined to make sure he's regarded as the top driver of his generation and finds ways to put down his main rival (racing against Newey, etc.). His talking up of Hamilton is also part of this since it makes equalling rookie Lewis look like less of a failure. It's also safe to do because Lewis is not currently a threat since he only has the one WDC is is off at Mercedes.

The amazing part to me is that Ferrari go along with it willingly (even happily). Sure, they didn't have the best qualifying car last year, but they had an excellent car on Sundays. It had good race pace and the best off-the-line starts on the grid (which mitigated their Saturday deficit).

But kudos to Fernando for convincing his team to go along and for skillfully manipulating the press. He's done it very well as most of the media would pick him as the top driver over Vettel and Hamilton.



#9 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 16:48

If this thread is to continue it needs to continue in a civil manner, no name calling, no flame bait and no personal attacks and keep to the topic.

#10 PretentiousBread

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 16:51

It seems to me that Alonso is the most conscious of his legacy amongst the current crop of drivers. He's constantly making himself the hero by playing the public relations game, and he definitely has skill in this area. He is determined to make sure he's regarded as the top driver of his generation and finds ways to put down his main rival (racing against Newey, etc.). His talking up of Hamilton is also part of this since it makes equalling rookie Lewis look like less of a failure. It's also safe to do because Lewis is not currently a threat since he only has the one WDC is is off at Mercedes.

The amazing part to me is that Ferrari go along with it willingly (even happily). Sure, they didn't have the best qualifying car last year, but they had an excellent car on Sundays. It had good race pace and the best off-the-line starts on the grid (which mitigated their Saturday deficit).

But kudos to Fernando for convincing his team to go along and for skillfully manipulating the press. He's done it very well as most of the media would pick him as the top driver over Vettel and Hamilton.


He may be doing that, and I might have had a problem with that if I didn't agree with most of his statements. He said the car was only about 3rd or 4th best, statistically that's correct. Now he's saying that realistically at the end of last season Ferrari were in a tighter fight with the midfield teams than they were with the front runners, which is true as well. If anyone else said it then no fuss would be made out of it, but because it's Alonso suddenly he's Joseph Goebbels and he's misinforming us with his propaganda.

#11 Clatter

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 17:03

He may be doing that, and I might have had a problem with that if I didn't agree with most of his statements. He said the car was only about 3rd or 4th best, statistically that's correct. Now he's saying that realistically at the end of last season Ferrari were in a tighter fight with the midfield teams than they were with the front runners, which is true as well. If anyone else said it then no fuss would be made out of it, but because it's Alonso suddenly he's Joseph Goebbels and he's misinforming us with his propaganda.


Was just going to say them same thing. I can't see what the problem is with what he said.

#12 Mc_Silver

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 17:08

I think Alonso likes to play down things quite a lot. He has a knack not to over estimate things or make things look better that they actually look. To be fair it is a trait that probably works well for him and rarely makes him look stupid in the long run. I am far from one of his fans but I know he is clever and likes to play mind games with the competition.


This

#13 tkulla

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 17:10

Was just going to say them same thing. I can't see what the problem is with what he said.


Because it was only true on Saturday. He's leaving out that the car was quite competitive, and well above the "midfield teams" on Sundays, which is when it counts.



#14 fabr68

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 17:10

It seems to me that Alonso is the most conscious of his legacy amongst the current crop of drivers. He's constantly making himself the hero by playing the public relations game, and he definitely has skill in this area. He is determined to make sure he's regarded as the top driver of his generation and finds ways to put down his main rival (racing against Newey, etc.). His talking up of Hamilton is also part of this since it makes equalling rookie Lewis look like less of a failure. It's also safe to do because Lewis is not currently a threat since he only has the one WDC is is off at Mercedes.

The amazing part to me is that Ferrari go along with it willingly (even happily). Sure, they didn't have the best qualifying car last year, but they had an excellent car on Sundays. It had good race pace and the best off-the-line starts on the grid (which mitigated their Saturday deficit).

But kudos to Fernando for convincing his team to go along and for skillfully manipulating the press. He's done it very well as most of the media would pick him as the top driver over Vettel and Hamilton.


That is quite a huge insult on the Formula 1 Media.

Most of the media experts said the Ferrari car was not good at all during winter testing last year. They also rate Hamilton very high. Are they wrong and this is plain manipulation by Alonso's opinions?

#15 Mc_Silver

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 17:12

He may be doing that, and I might have had a problem with that if I didn't agree with most of his statements. He said the car was only about 3rd or 4th best, statistically that's correct. Now he's saying that realistically at the end of last season Ferrari were in a tighter fight with the midfield teams than they were with the front runners, which is true as well. If anyone else said it then no fuss would be made out of it, but because it's Alonso suddenly he's Joseph Goebbels and he's misinforming us with his propaganda.


With Alonso's logic, you can say McLaren was fighting with Force India in Brazil as well, so how realistic is it to say we were fighting with Force India and Saubers and downplaying his car's speed which was there at the end of the year shown by Massa?

#16 Fontainebleau

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 17:14

Was just going to say them same thing. I can't see what the problem is with what he said.

Sometimes the problem is not what was said, but who said it  ;)

#17 1Devil1

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 17:19

I get the feeling he is more interested in what the media or his fans think about him as actually winning the world title. In ten years, Vettel is counting his money and his titles, Alonso will browse through the web to manipulate fan polls at atlasf1 :p

#18 ZuTiMa

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 17:22

Was just going to say them same thing. I can't see what the problem is with what he said.

+1 .... this is a non issue... thread wont last long

#19 Shiroo

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 17:27

when he will end the career, he will mention that once upon a time in 2012 he had 9th fastest car but got 2nd in championship due to his awesomness.

on serious note, this is getting silly. I mean, in the last race Ferrari was 3rd force no doubts about that. And to win race you first need to finish (and even if McLaren was the faster car it had reliability problems0

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#20 JSDSKI

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 17:27

Simple as: McLaren and RedBull had 80% of the 2012 pole positions.

Ferrari had 10% and everyone else had 10% of poles.

So Ferrari was about as fast, in absolute pole winning speed terms, that is, as "everyone else".

But not as fast as Mac and RB. Pretty straightforward.

#21 Atreiu

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 17:27

He's full of it.
It's not mind games, by the way, but gross exageration and excuse making.

#22 fabr68

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 17:33

To make sure everyone understands (please don't go off-topic), the intended topic is the validity of Alonso's claims and why he does it

I'm not sure what to do with Alonso.
There's been a lot of discussion about how good or bad the Ferrari really was, and Alonso's efforts in downtuning the car's pace in the media. But I'm just short of thinking he's just completely lost it now. His latest comment:



I think not even the biggest Alonso fan would argue that they were anything but the third fastest car in the latter half. But if there was still some doubt, let's just look at the numbers from Hungary on:

  • Vettel: 171 points
  • Alonso: 124 points
  • Button: 120 points
  • Kimi: 109 points
  • Massa: 99 points
  • Hamilton: 98 points
  • Webber: 59 points
  • Hülkenberg: 44 points
  • Grosjean: 35 points
  • Kobayashi: 27 points
  • Perez: 19 points
  • di Resta: 19 points
  • Red Bull: 295
  • Ferrari: 223
  • McLaren: 218
  • Lotus: 144
  • Force India: 63
  • Sauber: 46

Even if believe in Alonso's 0.6 second talent, Massa had double the points of those Alonso claims were as fast or faster than Ferrari. Massa was just 10 points short of scoring as much as Force India and Sauber combined, who were apparently in the same group.

Even just taking qualifying, which some ascribe to being indicative of race pace (big if), of the 60 times a Lotus, Force India or Sauber could have been faster than Massa (again, let's assume the worst of the car), 20 times is hardly shocking.

By taking the latter half of the year, it's actually doing Alonso a favor, as taking anything closer to the actual end, only makes the comment further from the truth.

When you take out the Lotusses, 9 out of 40 shows the rediculousness of even including Force India and Sauber.
Fernando is definitely one of the three best drivers out there right now, but why the constant need for these kind of comments that are rediculous on every conceivable level?


It all depends on how much red mist you have when reading his comments.

Alonso always speaks glass half empty. If you look at qualifying towards the end of the year, Ferrari was always behind Red Bull, Mclaren and Lotus and Williams at times. Heck, Ferrari only got 2 pole positions out of possible 20 and only on wet conditions. That alone makes his comments valid.

Also, if you look at how the Ferrari updates did not work and both Massa and Alonso had to run the old parts. That alone puts you behind teams who actually improve a lot when they bolted on their updates at the end of the year.




#23 HPT

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 17:34

He's full of it.
It's not mind games, by the way, but gross exageration and excuse making.


He needs to make excuses for what exactly?

#24 Disgrace

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 17:36

I think Alonso likes to play down things quite a lot. He has a knack not to over estimate things or make things look better that they actually look. To be fair it is a trait that probably works well for him and rarely makes him look stupid in the long run. I am far from one of his fans but I know he is clever and likes to play mind games with the competition.


I agree with this. I would also speculate that they're mind games with himself more than anything. If he thrives as the self-perceived underdog, then whatever so long as it makes him (as I perceive) the greatest driver on the grid. What he says to the press is hardly an accurate way to measure this though.

Edited by Disgrace, 20 February 2013 - 17:41.


#25 1Devil1

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 17:40

It all depends on how much red mist you have when reading his comments.

Alonso always speaks glass half empty. If you look at qualifying towards the end of the year, Ferrari was always behind Red Bull, Mclaren and Lotus and Williams at times. Heck, Ferrari only got 2 pole positions out of possible 20 and only on wet conditions. That alone makes his comments valid.

Also, if you look at how the Ferrari updates did not work and both Massa and Alonso had to run the old parts. That alone puts you behind teams who actually improve a lot when they bolted on their updates at the end of the year.


Ferrari as Massa showed was third power behind McLaren and RedBull in the last races, who cares about qualifying if you're race pace is good. I guess any driver would take race pace over single lap speed. Ask the Mercedes drivers. The argumentation "our car was only midfield", is typical Alonso, like the thread poster, I ask myself what is his intention behind all that. A fair fan, would admit he drove perfect last year, his car was not good enough, but why does he need to downplay it even more, that we all think he could drive a HRT and would take it to the last race...?

#26 Atreiu

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 17:41

He needs to make excuses for what exactly?


Nothing actually. His 2012 was terrific.
But to go out of the way to say the Ferrari was a Sauber/Force India like car must help him, or others, find it easier to digest the title loss.

#27 Sausage

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 17:42

Whats so hard to understand? You either think he's just being his usual political self or you agree. All drivers make half-statements, probably all humans even and it's always hard to judge intent. Just like when Lewis called Heikki a brilliant driver recently. Is it to make themself look good, do they genuinely believe it, or are it just facts? (in f1, right) Everyone will have a different opinion on things like that.

As for F1-media it isn't exactly known for investigative journalism, nobody would call drivers out on such statements, well maybe in a column or so but never in interviews. I'm sure a lot of them would like to be harder or more serious but not at the risks of access being lost or portraying what they cover in too much negative light, after all they live off F1 too.

#28 pRy

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 17:44

My gut feeling end of last year was Ferrari knew they had to do something different in qualifying to get Alonso into a position where he could score as many points as possible in the races.. which is where they were lacking towards the end of the year with out right pace. So they went in a creative direction in qualifying with him to try and assist this and they didn't make it work.. and it actually resulted in Massa having a better run than Alonso. They had to try something, it didn't work. That was my gut feeling. I'm quite open to being wrong on that. Ultimately the truth is clear.. the Ferrari wasn't good in qualifying or in the races. Alonso was often shattered at the end of them. How anyone can question his work effort I don't know. At times it looked like he was about to pass out while Button and Vettel would be exchanging jokes in the background and messing with their caps.

#29 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 17:45

Because it was only true on Saturday. He's leaving out that the car was quite competitive, and well above the "midfield teams" on Sundays, which is when it counts.


The Ferrari's weren't battling FI's or Saubers on Saturday's.

Averaging out the best qually placings over the last five races had the Ferrari at 5.4, with FI just in the top 10 at 9.4, and Sauber back at 12.

Adding Lotus: the best Lotus averaged 6.0 on the grid.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 20 February 2013 - 20:25.


#30 tkulla

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 17:49

He needs to make excuses for what exactly?


I'm sure he's very, very tough on himself, and therefore has regrets about his inability to come up with big performances in the final races in 2010 and 2012. Under the circumstances of each race his decision was reasonable and probably even the smart way to go, but in the context of "greatness" they were less than impressive. Yes, he might have crashed with Petrov had he made a banzai move, and he might have spun off in Brazil trying to catch and pass Button (especially when it was wet) but chose the conservative route, hoping Vettel wouldn't be able to do what was needed to win the title.

Alonso is great, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have self doubt.

#31 BillBald

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 17:52

In fairness "At the end of the year" could be taken to mean the last race, where Ferrari were not very fast, and would have finished well behind Seb, and behind a Force India, if not for various incidents.

Or it could refer to the last 2 races - Alonso was slow in quali in USA, and only a combination of team orders and a good start saved his race.

But you'd have to say that Alonso is overstating his case somewhat, and it's rather remarkable that Ferrari allow him to get away with it, since he's criticising the team to make himself look better.



#32 tkulla

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 17:53

That is quite a huge insult on the Formula 1 Media.

Most of the media experts said the Ferrari car was not good at all during winter testing last year. They also rate Hamilton very high. Are they wrong and this is plain manipulation by Alonso's opinions?


Is it an insult? Yes, the Ferrari had a rough start last year, but at the end of the year it was clearly the third best car and quite competitive on Sundays.

Hamilton is a fantastic driver. No one's disputing that. I'm just noting that its self-serving for Alonso to praise Hamilton as the point is to diminish Vettel (who has eclipsed Alonso in titles) without much danger (since Hamilton is currently not a threat in that regard).

#33 SCUDmissile

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 17:53

Looking at races, he is obviously wrong. But when you look at the quali times, Ferrari were qualifying around the Force Indias.

Brazilian GP Top 10 in quali:

1 1 Sebastian Vettel Red Bull-Renault 1:36.558 1:35.796 1:35.657 1
2 4 Lewis Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 1:37.058 1:36.795 1:35.766 2
3 2 Mark Webber Red Bull-Renault 1:37.215 1:36.298 1:36.174 3
4 10 Romain Grosjean Lotus-Renault 1:37.486 1:36.906 1:36.587 81
5 9 Kimi Räikkönen Lotus-Renault 1:38.051 1:37.404 1:36.708 4
6 7 Michael Schumacher Mercedes 1:37.927 1:37.102 1:36.794 5
7 6 Felipe Massa Ferrari 1:37.667 1:36.549 1:36.937 111
8 12 Nico Hülkenberg Force India-Mercedes 1:37.756 1:37.066 1:37.141 6
9 5 Fernando Alonso Ferrari 1:37.968 1:37.123 1:37.300 7
10 18 Pastor Maldonado Williams-Renault 1:37.537 1:37.011 1:37.842 9


US Top 10 Quali

1 1 Sebastian Vettel Red Bull-Renault 1:36.558 1:35.796 1:35.657 1
2 4 Lewis Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 1:37.058 1:36.795 1:35.766 2
3 2 Mark Webber Red Bull-Renault 1:37.215 1:36.298 1:36.174 3
4 10 Romain Grosjean Lotus-Renault 1:37.486 1:36.906 1:36.587 81
5 9 Kimi Räikkönen Lotus-Renault 1:38.051 1:37.404 1:36.708 4
6 7 Michael Schumacher Mercedes 1:37.927 1:37.102 1:36.794 5
7 6 Felipe Massa Ferrari 1:37.667 1:36.549 1:36.937 111
8 12 Nico Hülkenberg Force India-Mercedes 1:37.756 1:37.066 1:37.141 6
9 5 Fernando Alonso Ferrari 1:37.968 1:37.123 1:37.300 7
10 18 Pastor Maldonado Williams-Renault 1:37.537 1:37.011 1:37.842 9


Abu Dhabi Top 10

1 4 Lewis Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 1:41.497 1:40.901 1:40.630 1
2 2 Mark Webber Red Bull-Renault 1:41.933 1:41.277 1:40.987 2
EX 1 Sebastian Vettel Red Bull-Renault 1:42.160 1:41.511 1:41.073 PL1
3 18 Pastor Maldonado Williams-Renault 1:41.981 1:41.907 1:41.226 3
4 9 Kimi Räikkönen Lotus-Renault 1:42.222 1:41.532 1:41.260 4
5 3 Jenson Button McLaren-Mercedes 1:42.342 1:41.873 1:41.290 5
6 5 Fernando Alonso Ferrari 1:41.939 1:41.514 1:41.582 6
7 8 Nico Rosberg Mercedes 1:41.926 1:41.698 1:41.603 7
8 6 Felipe Massa Ferrari 1:41.974 1:41.846 1:41.723 8
9 10 Romain Grosjean Lotus-Renault 1:42.046 1:41.620 1:41.778 9
10 12 Nico Hülkenberg Force India-Mercedes 1:42.579 1:42.019 10


Indian GP

1 1 Sebastian Vettel Red Bull-Renault 1:26.387 1:25.435 1:25.283 1
2 2 Mark Webber Red Bull-Renault 1:26.744 1:25.610 1:25.327 2
3 4 Lewis Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 1:26.516 1:25.816 1:25.544 3
4 3 Jenson Button McLaren-Mercedes 1:26.564 1:25.467 1:25.649 4
5 5 Fernando Alonso Ferrari 1:26.829 1:25.834 1:25.773 5
6 6 Felipe Massa Ferrari 1:26.939 1:26.111 1:25.857 6
7 9 Kimi Räikkönen Lotus-Renault 1:26.740 1:26.101 1:26.236 7
8 15 Sergio Pérez Sauber-Ferrari 1:27.179 1:26.076 1:26.360 8
9 18 Pastor Maldonado Williams-Renault 1:26.048 1:25.983 1:26.713 9
10 8 Nico Rosberg Mercedes 1:26.458 1:25.976 no time 10


As you can see, in the final 2 gps of the year Fernando got outqualified by Hulk's Force India. This may explain the comments.

#34 mattferg

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 17:55

To make sure everyone understands (please don't go off-topic), the intended topic is the validity of Alonso's claims and why he does it

I'm not sure what to do with Alonso.
There's been a lot of discussion about how good or bad the Ferrari really was, and Alonso's efforts in downtuning the car's pace in the media. But I'm just short of thinking he's just completely lost it now. His latest comment:



I think not even the biggest Alonso fan would argue that they were anything but the third fastest car in the latter half. But if there was still some doubt, let's just look at the numbers from Hungary on:

  • Vettel: 171 points
  • Alonso: 124 points
  • Button: 120 points
  • Kimi: 109 points
  • Massa: 99 points
  • Hamilton: 98 points
  • Webber: 59 points
  • Hülkenberg: 44 points
  • Grosjean: 35 points
  • Kobayashi: 27 points
  • Perez: 19 points
  • di Resta: 19 points
  • Red Bull: 295
  • Ferrari: 223
  • McLaren: 218
  • Lotus: 144
  • Force India: 63
  • Sauber: 46

Even if believe in Alonso's 0.6 second talent, Massa had double the points of those Alonso claims were as fast or faster than Ferrari. Massa was just 10 points short of scoring as much as Force India and Sauber combined, who were apparently in the same group.

Even just taking qualifying, which some ascribe to being indicative of race pace (big if), of the 60 times a Lotus, Force India or Sauber could have been faster than Massa (again, let's assume the worst of the car), 20 times is hardly shocking.

By taking the latter half of the year, it's actually doing Alonso a favor, as taking anything closer to the actual end, only makes the comment further from the truth.

When you take out the Lotusses, 9 out of 40 shows the rediculousness of even including Force India and Sauber.
Fernando is definitely one of the three best drivers out there right now, but why the constant need for these kind of comments that are rediculous on every conceivable level?


He's an egomaniac who wants everyone to believe the only reason Ferrari came second was because of him, not the car or Massa, engineers etc. The worse he claims the car is, the better he thinks he looks.


#35 fabr68

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 17:56

He also said "we", not "they"

"At the end of the year we were quite far from [pace-setters] Red Bull and McLaren, in a group with force Force India and Sauber behind Lotus,"


Haters are going to hate...

Edited by fabr68, 20 February 2013 - 17:56.


#36 Skinnyguy

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 18:04

I thought he was talking about Brazil only when I first saw it, and if we talk about Brazil, it´s not that weird he said that, it´s sort of precise..


But after reading they "were behind Lotus", it stopped making sense. Lotus wasn´t exactly on fire in Brazil either. Maybe he was talking about the "last races" genreally (a small group of them), but then it all stops making any sort of sense.

Maybe it was just a comment made without paying too much attention and he made a slip somewhere. That´s the only thing that makes any sense.

#37 Kingshark

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 18:09

He's an egomaniac who wants everyone to believe the only reason Ferrari came second was because of him, not the car or Massa, engineers etc. The worse he claims the car is, the better he thinks he looks.

He doesn't have to, in fact, the Ferrari Team principle has already done it for him. :lol:

Ferrari team principal Stefano Domenicali paid tribute to Fernando Alonso after he narrowly lost the drivers’ championship in Brazil.

“That’s sport and that’s how it goes,” said Domenicali. “To have lost the drivers’ title twice in the last three years by the tiniest of margins hurts, it hurts a lot, I can assure you of that.

“I am particularly disappointed for Fernando, who like never before, really deserved to win this time. He has been extraordinary, not just in the way he has driven, nor because he simply never gave up in the first very difficult part of the season, but mainly for the human qualities he demonstrated within the team.”

http://www.f1fanatic...hip-domenicali/

Now that's impressive to hear that from a team manager, isn't it?

Compare that to Lotus's comments about their drivers.

In the round-up: Lotus expect Kimi Raikkonen and Romain Grosjean to raise their game next year.

http://www.f1fanatic...c-roundup-2512/

Can you not see the difference between what the paddock considers a good driver, versus a great one?

#38 Massa

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 18:15

Looking at races, he is obviously wrong. But when you look at the quali times, Ferrari were qualifying around the Force Indias.

Brazilian GP Top 10 in quali:



US Top 10 Quali



Abu Dhabi Top 10



Indian GP



As you can see, in the final 2 gps of the year Fernando got outqualified by Hulk's Force India. This may explain the comments.



You are right. I don't understand why this thread have been opened. The answer is there " AT THE END OF THE YEAR ", and if we look at the Q order of the last two or three races, he is right.

#39 Skinnyguy

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 18:16

What I don´t get is why the hell he feels the need to do this. He´s been great last year, best guy out there. He´s done one of the best full seasons of driving I can think of. There´s no need for this crap! Fernando, just keep driving like that, and let the stupid analysis of pecking order for fanboys. :lol:

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#40 swerved

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 18:20

Is it an insult? Yes, the Ferrari had a rough start last year, but at the end of the year it was clearly the third best car and quite competitive on Sundays.

Hamilton is a fantastic driver. No one's disputing that. I'm just noting that its self-serving for Alonso to praise Hamilton as the point is to diminish Vettel (who has eclipsed Alonso in titles) without much danger (since Hamilton is currently not a threat in that regard).



:up: That's what it's all about, being self serving, it's always sad to see someone try and demean another competitor who has beaten them, and Fernando has always been something of a sore loser imo, it seems that anything he can say to help justify his not winning, he will say it, even if it means skewing the truth a little.


#41 fabr68

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 18:20

I agree with Alonso that in order to fight for the Championship this year, the Ferrari car has to be much better than last year.

Not every season the fast cars are going to waste points on bad pit stops or offtrack blunders. Also, finishing races behind Sauber, Williams and constantly qualifying in 5th place or lower will make it impossible to win a Championship. It has never been done. Last year it almost happened, but in Formula 1 is the exception, not the rule like some want to paint it.



#42 wrcva

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 18:20

possible theory is that he does this kind of PR to manipulate and keep his main boss, Mr. Botin of Santander, on his side. Generally Ferrari does not like drivers talking down the car even if it is a piece of s#it, but since LdM and Dom are ok with it, there is an unusual corporate support for trash-talking the car, therefore you have to follow the money. These days $antander's importance to F1 is well beyond Ferrari, so one way or another they (Alonso, LdM, Dom, Massa, Martin and Bernie) have to keep them calm, and keep paying...

#43 Massa

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 18:21

What I don´t get is why the hell he feels the need to do this. He´s been great last year, best guy out there. He´s done one of the best full seasons of driving I can think of. There´s no need for this crap! Fernando, just keep driving like that, and let the stupid analysis of pecking order for fanboys. :lol:


What's wrong with his statement ? He is right.

The car was barely faster in pure pace than Force India.

#44 swerved

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 18:23

What I don´t get is why the hell he feels the need to do this. He´s been great last year, best guy out there. He´s done one of the best full seasons of driving I can think of. There´s no need for this crap! Fernando, just keep driving like that, and let the stupid analysis of pecking order for fanboys. :lol:



Perfectly true, he had a stellar year, but he didn't win the title, and thats probably the source of the irritation, the itch that needs scratching, as you say there's no need for it though, his standard of driving speaks for itself usually.


#45 Skinnyguy

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 18:34

What's wrong with his statement ? He is right.


No he´s not. The pecking order he drawed never existed. Ferrari was 2nd BEST car overall, 3rd FASTEST car of the season overall.

If we have a look to late part of the season, Sauber and Force India were indeed rivals in the low end of Q3, but once races got going, Ferrari would end way down the road, except for the very last race in quite weird conditions: what chances had Sauber or FI to compete with Ferrari in Japan, Korea, India, Dubai, or USA? Zero. And if he´s just talking about THAT particular race (which would make that part of the statement right), then the rest of the pecking order he drawed stops making sense.




#46 PretentiousBread

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 18:41

Perfectly true, he had a stellar year, but he didn't win the title, and thats probably the source of the irritation, the itch that needs scratching, as you say there's no need for it though, his standard of driving speaks for itself usually.


Wish that were true but it's not, most people who follow this sport are either too casual or too dim-witted to appreciate it.

#47 JSDSKI

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 18:42

No he´s not. The pecking order he drawed never existed. Ferrari was 2nd BEST car overall, 3rd FASTEST car of the season overall.

Maybe the Car / Driver package was 2nd best or 3rd fastest "overall".... but, the pole positions, laps lead, fastest laps, stats, etc all indicate the CAR was never at that level.

Vettel and RB dominated. McLaren was a match for them but couldn't get it together.

The Ferrari, without someone like Hamilton, Vettel, Raikkonnen, (Kubica in his day) or Alonso driving it was simply an upper midfield car.

#48 Massa

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 18:42

No he´s not. The pecking order he drawed never existed. Ferrari was 2nd BEST car overall, 3rd FASTEST car of the season overall.

If we have a look to late part of the season, Sauber and Force India were indeed rivals in the low end of Q3, but once races got going, Ferrari would end way down the road, except for the very last race in quite weird conditions: what chances had Sauber or FI to compete with Ferrari in Japan, Korea, India, Dubai, or USA? Zero. And if he´s just talking about THAT particular race (which would make that part of the statement right), then the rest of the pecking order he drawed stops making sense.


Alonso was talking about the pace of the car, the real pace of the car you see than only in Quali session. On the race, you have too many variable.

Edited by Massa, 20 February 2013 - 18:42.


#49 Sin

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 18:43

I never understood Alonso really... his words were unfair and whether or not they are true is debatable, I personally think he played down what the Ferrari was capable of 2012, that Massa wasn't doing so well that season played into his card there, only my opinion tho.

One thing I can say for sure tho, his behaviour is really manipulative, unfriendly and where I thought him to be one of my favorite drivers at the beginning of 2012, his comments really made me dislike him.
No matter how good you think you are, you shouldn't play down other peoples achievements, which he did to Vettel. A great car is worth nothing without a great driver, if Vettel had not been in the RB, I highly doubt that Mark Webber would have become WDC, he
hasn't shown it. Not that Webber is a bad driver, but I think Vettel got the special something you need to be a great driver. Alonso has that special something too, I don't say he has not.

But to be a great driver in my opinion you need to have a great personality too and that is where Alonso is strongly lacking in my opinion, because of the way he acts, because of the things he speaks, because of how he praises himself so much, putting himself as the best ever.

Not much else to say to that... But saying the Ferrari would have been in the same group as FI and Sauber is just ridiculous. Massa was doing a great job in the last races, that Alonso failed to do so made me really wonder...

#50 Mc_Silver

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 18:50

Alonso was talking about the pace of the car, the real pace of the car you see than only in Quali session. On the race, you have too many variable.


If we look at Button's pace in qualifyings McLaren becomes 4th fastest car or maybe worse. Maybe Alonso didn't extract maximum from the car as Lewis and Vettel did? Please don't compare his times with Massa as we all know who is number 1 in Ferrari.  ;)