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Do teams ever recover from hiring paydrivers?


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#1 Jackmancer

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 20:11

I was watching videos on YouTube, one after the other, and saw that Kartikeyan now drove for two teams which are no more. In 2005 he was hired by Jordan. It all went bad pretty quickly for Jordan once they started hiring paydrivers. Not sure if Firman was one, but Pantano and Baumgartner certainly where. Same for Arrows; it went pretty bad when they got Bernoldi on board. Minardi's last talent was Justin Wilson, and even he had to pay for his seat. The last two years of Minardi where with Bruni, Baumgartner, Albers and Friesacher.


Perhaps the team that has recovered from a paydriver quite well is Sauber, if Diniz counts for a paydriver.



Maybe paydrivers are more a result of things going bad, and most teams are beyond saving. Which leaves me questioning Caterham and Marussia.

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#2 r4mses

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 20:20

[...]

Maybe paydrivers are more a result of things going bad, and most teams are beyond saving. Which leaves me questioning Caterham and Marussia.


...and Williams and Sauber and maybe even Force India? :/

#3 midgrid

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 20:32

I was watching videos on YouTube, one after the other, and saw that Kartikeyan now drove for two teams which are no more. In 2005 he was hired by Jordan. It all went bad pretty quickly for Jordan once they started hiring paydrivers. Not sure if Firman was one, but Pantano and Baumgartner certainly where. Same for Arrows; it went pretty bad when they got Bernoldi on board. Minardi's last talent was Justin Wilson, and even he had to pay for his seat. The last two years of Minardi where with Bruni, Baumgartner, Albers and Friesacher.


Eddie Jordan had already sold out to Alex Shnaider when Karthikeyan was signed. The team was Jordan in name only for the 2005 season.


#4 Nemo1965

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 20:33

Maybe paydrivers are more a result of things going bad, and most teams are beyond saving. Which leaves me questioning Caterham and Marussia.


Well, it is true that teams that have to take paydrivers often end up in trouble. But a nuance: sometimes the paydrivers themselves end up rather nicely. To name a few: Niki Lauda (paydriver at BRM, team folded not long after), Ronnie Peterson (Count Zanon payed half a million to buy him a spot at Lotus, team won a wc and many gp's there-after), Michael Schumacher (Jordan, without a hefty sum he never would have started at Spa for his debut), Jordan failed in the end...

I think you have to define paydrivers before you can something solid about what is says about the team. I myself don't regard drivers that won races in F3, GP2 and other feeder series paydrivers, however much money they bring...

#5 sopa

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 20:42

...and Williams and Sauber and maybe even Force India? :/



I think Sauber has managed to develop a solid foundation to themselves that they always manage to be at least average. Even the difficult 2010 with no sponsors didn't kill them. As long as they don't hire two unspectacular paydrivers, they should be fine. So far they have always had at least one promising driver.

Williams is interesting. Last year they had two paydrivers, who didn't perform well. Now they are trying to climb out of the hole by hiring one promising non-pay driver. We will see.

Force India is a genuine concern.

#6 BRG

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 20:56

Williams is interesting. Last year they had two paydrivers, who didn't perform well. Now they are trying to climb out of the hole by hiring one promising non-pay driver. We will see.

You mean that all those new Finnish sponsors on the Williams are simply a coincidence?

#7 eronrules

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 21:00

shouldn't the article read

'Does drivers ever recover after termed 'pay driver', even after succes???'




#8 darkkis

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 21:10

Maybe paydrivers are more a result of things going bad, and most teams are beyond saving. Which leaves me questioning Caterham and Marussia.

I don't think that it matters at all for those teams... After all they're so much behind from the other teams it doesn't even matter who drives for them.

#9 BullHead

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 21:21

Well, it is true that teams that have to take paydrivers often end up in trouble. But a nuance: sometimes the paydrivers themselves end up rather nicely. To name a few: Niki Lauda (paydriver at BRM, team folded not long after), Ronnie Peterson (Count Zanon payed half a million to buy him a spot at Lotus, team won a wc and many gp's there-after), Michael Schumacher (Jordan, without a hefty sum he never would have started at Spa for his debut), Jordan failed in the end...

I think you have to define paydrivers before you can something solid about what is says about the team. I myself don't regard drivers that won races in F3, GP2 and other feeder series paydrivers, however much money they bring...


:up: Indeed. The term is well over used and mis used.

#10 sopa

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 21:29

You mean that all those new Finnish sponsors on the Williams are simply a coincidence?


Oh, you are right. But I get the impression Bottas still brings less money than Senna and with Bottas Williams wants to take a genuine gamble on improving driver performance. While last year they just hired someone, who had the most money (Senna). Even Barrichello was rumoured to bring something, but it was less than Senna, so he was left aside. Had Barrichello continued in 2012, he would have been a paydriver then, but still he would have been in F1 on merit, mainly for performance, not for money.

#11 r4mses

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 21:35

[...]

Williams is interesting. Last year they had two paydrivers, who didn't perform well. Now they are trying to climb out of the hole by hiring one promising non-pay driver. We will see.

[...]


Even as I'm no fan of Senna - the total opposite in fact - he's among the better pay drivers F1 has seen. Maldonado - again, I'm no fan of him - is quite good as well. Williams did rather good getting decent pay drivers last year.

#12 Anderis

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 21:58

Oh, you are right. But I get the impression Bottas still brings less money than Senna and with Bottas Williams wants to take a genuine gamble on improving driver performance. While last year they just hired someone, who had the most money (Senna). Even Barrichello was rumoured to bring something, but it was less than Senna, so he was left aside. Had Barrichello continued in 2012, he would have been a paydriver then, but still he would have been in F1 on merit, mainly for performance, not for money.

I think it's just the best money-skill combination what is usually chosen by midfield team. It's not like Williams just hired someone who had the most money last year. If Ma Qing Hua came with 1 million $ more than Bruno, he wouldn't have been chosen over Senna. Williams just took a gable with driver that had shown some promise with Lotus and who had a potential to bring more financial benefits than what he actually brought in 2012 if everything would have gone right. If Bruno was up to repeat some of his great qualifying efforts from 2011 consistently throughout the whole racing weekends in 2012, Williams wins much by this move. If not, they have the back-up plan in Bottas.

Bottas has got his seat because he was considered by the team as a step forward in performance. But hadn't he managed to gather a budget which most likely equals to 50-75% of what Bruno could bring, he most likely wouldn't have been chosen as a racing driver for Williams this year. Things are quite sophisticated in F1 right now. You would say Bottas would've been here on merit. But he has to bring money nonetheless. You would say Maldonado is an obvious example of pay driver. But if GP2 winner (even if it took him much time) isn't the one who should be in F1 on merit, then who is?

Apart from Karthikheyan, all of other drivers that currently are or were in F1 in the past few years were frontrunners in feeder series at some point. And even mentioned Kartikheyan has not that bad pre-F1 record. Therefore it makes really hard to use term pay-driver fairly.

#13 BigCHrome

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 22:06

Yes, it's possible. Force India and Spyker before them were completely hopeless around 2006-2008. On the other hand they've become quite competitive these last few years and were unlucky to not win a race last year.

#14 noikeee

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 22:21

I was watching videos on YouTube, one after the other, and saw that Kartikeyan now drove for two teams which are no more. In 2005 he was hired by Jordan. It all went bad pretty quickly for Jordan once they started hiring paydrivers. Not sure if Firman was one, but Pantano and Baumgartner certainly where. Same for Arrows; it went pretty bad when they got Bernoldi on board. Minardi's last talent was Justin Wilson, and even he had to pay for his seat. The last two years of Minardi where with Bruni, Baumgartner, Albers and Friesacher.


Perhaps the team that has recovered from a paydriver quite well is Sauber, if Diniz counts for a paydriver.



Maybe paydrivers are more a result of things going bad, and most teams are beyond saving. Which leaves me questioning Caterham and Marussia.


Given Minardi won a race in 2008 and Jordan nearly won the very last F1 GP in Interlagos last year, I'd say they've done quite nicely.  ;)

#15 scheivlak

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 22:23

Williams had a pay driver period as well in the mid 70s - Frank even had his car badged as 'Politoys' or 'Iso Marlboro'....

#16 noikeee

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 22:35

Or Renault/Lotus fighting for the title with Kimi, just one year after having Petrov in their ranks.

#17 ensign14

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 23:03

Peugeot bought a drive for Alliot at McLaren. He went about as well as their engine. Fortunately Mr Dennis was able to demonstrate to Peugeot that M'sieu Alliot's continuum of positional change lacked the appropriate and pre-requisite velocity that is tantamount to being commensurate with the accumulation of championship ranking increments. As it is, his Project One was running F2 for a couple of hopeless Ecuadorians paid for by the state.

Ferrari had been known to provide a drive for the odd aristocrat previously. But back in the day when pretty much everyone did a favour to someone (hometown boy usually, hence Reg Parnell driving for Alfa at Silverstone or Soler-Roig wasting space for Lotus in Spain).

#18 ApexMouse

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 23:12

Peugeot bought a drive for Alliot at McLaren. He went about as well as their engine. Fortunately Mr Dennis was able to demonstrate to Peugeot that M'sieu Alliot's continuum of positional change lacked the appropriate and pre-requisite velocity that is tantamount to being commensurate with the accumulation of championship ranking increments. As it is, his Project One was running F2 for a couple of hopeless Ecuadorians paid for by the state.

Ferrari had been known to provide a drive for the odd aristocrat previously. But back in the day when pretty much everyone did a favour to someone (hometown boy usually, hence Reg Parnell driving for Alfa at Silverstone or Soler-Roig wasting space for Lotus in Spain).


Nice :lol:

#19 bourbon

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 01:01

Given Minardi won a race in 2008 and Jordan nearly won the very last F1 GP in Interlagos last year, I'd say they've done quite nicely. ;)


eheh...but by then, they had dumped all the pay drivers... :lol: