Great drivers that didn't like the rain
#1
Posted 08 March 2013 - 10:46
Why do we think this is? Usually driving skills should be enough to shine through on a wet surface, yet even some drivers that are average in the dry become very impressive in the wet - Sutil for instance, and indeed Schumacher in the second phase of his career.
Is it because wet-weather driving requires a completely different skill set? Am quite interested to hear a thought-out response as it's just been on my mind this morning and was bugging me!
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#2
Posted 08 March 2013 - 10:53
Edit: in the sense of not "liking" rain as jcbc3 explained in the next post.
Edited by KnucklesAgain, 08 March 2013 - 10:55.
#3
Posted 08 March 2013 - 10:54
[edit]
Damn you, knuckles!
[/edit]
[edit2]
If you prefer to be nice about stealing my place in the line I guess I have to retract my cusses.
[edit2]
Edited by jcbc3, 08 March 2013 - 10:56.
#4
Posted 08 March 2013 - 10:59
David Coulthard
#5
Posted 08 March 2013 - 11:02
That can be the only starting point for a balanced discussion of 'like' or 'dislike' such conditions Vs being 'capable' in them.
#6
Posted 08 March 2013 - 11:02
Edited by Radion, 08 March 2013 - 11:03.
#7
Posted 08 March 2013 - 11:06
This was the day of Amon's quote "Someone should tell Pedro it's raining!"
#8
Posted 08 March 2013 - 11:19
#9
Posted 08 March 2013 - 11:25
#10
Posted 08 March 2013 - 11:34
It's a very different skillset. Firstly, you have to be able to deal with understeer. For some people, that totally destroys thier confidence and they struggle to overcome it.
Oversteer?
#11
Posted 08 March 2013 - 11:46
Compared to Lewis, almost any driver looks weak in the wet...
Only took 6 posts for someone to appear and spew a myth. Amazing ti took so long. Hard work perpetuating those myths.
When talking about who likes rain keep in mind that not liking something doesn't necessarily mean you are good at it, and vice versa
#12
Posted 08 March 2013 - 11:47
#13
Posted 08 March 2013 - 11:50
Certainly Hakkinen and Villeneuve weren't very impressive in the wet. Even though both were wdc's, many of their contemporary non-wdc drivers were superior to them in the wet, like Frentzen, Barrichello, R.Schumacher, Verstappen, Alesi, etc.
Although factor in that rain is the great equaliser, as the cars that had downforce worth speaking about can kiss it goodbye.
As with anything in motorsport, there are so many factors involved.
#14
Posted 08 March 2013 - 11:56
Oversteer?
No.
#15
Posted 08 March 2013 - 11:59
Oversteer?
Isn't it meant to be understeer on entry and snap oversteer on exit?
#16
Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:02
#17
Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:04
Isn't it meant to be understeer on entry and snap oversteer on exit?
Yeah. The throttle oversteer is something most people can deal with relatively proficiently.
The getting the car slowed down and the understeer on entry is the spooky bit.
#18
Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:04
Only took 6 posts for someone to appear and spew a myth. Amazing ti took so long. Hard work perpetuating those myths.
When talking about who likes rain keep in mind that not liking something doesn't necessarily mean you are good at it, and vice versa
People spew plenty of myths about Senna, no one seems to mind.
How was ralf schumacher in the rain?
#19
Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:08
Not too bad in Spa 1998.How was ralf schumacher in the rain?
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#20
Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:08
#21
Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:09
Did he ever impress during rain?
I remember Fuiji 2007...
#22
Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:11
#23
Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:12
People spew plenty of myths about Senna, no one seems to mind.
How was ralf schumacher in the rain?
there is no myth about senna , he is THAT good
#24
Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:12
Yeah. The throttle oversteer is something most people can deal with relatively proficiently.
The getting the car slowed down and the understeer on entry is the spooky bit.
But they can also lose alot of time through there if they're not the best wet weather drivers right?
Where do you feel the best wet weather drivers gain the most time?
#25
Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:12
Alonso, maybe?
Did he ever impress during rain?
I remember Fuiji 2007...
Webber ain't exactly a stud in the rain.
I remember Alonso complaining about rain in the 2010 Korean race.
#26
Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:14
Personally I wouldn't put Alonso in this category. He seems pretty damn quick in the rain usually.Alonso, maybe?
Did he ever impress during rain?
I remember Fuiji 2007...
#27
Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:16
Jacques Villeneuve may not have been a rain meister but his father certainly was - just one example being his astonishing practice run at Watkins Glen in 1979, when he was 11 seconds faster than anyone else: http://www.espn.co.u...story/6630.htmlCertainly Hakkinen and Villeneuve weren't very impressive in the wet. Even though both were wdc's, many of their contemporary non-wdc drivers were superior to them in the wet, like Frentzen, Barrichello, R.Schumacher, Verstappen, Alesi, etc.
#28
Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:16
No.
Well, we're both right aren't we? Understeer on entry and oversteer when they try to get the power down. Both are problematic, and drivers have to be proficient at dealing with both, but it's no coincidence that many drivers spin in the wet (suggesting that oversteer is the problem, obviously).
#29
Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:20
Don't forget his little tantrum at Silverstone last year.Alonso, maybe?
Did he ever impress during rain?
I remember Fuiji 2007...
"I not on pole? Waaah! Waaah! Red flag!!!! Waaah! :cry :"
#30
Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:31
“… Didier's accident in 1982 horrified me. [Pironi, lapping quickly, had caught Prost, who had just been overtaken by Derek Daly's Williams. Thinking Daly was moving off line to get out of the Ferrari's way, Pironi powered into the spray and straight into the back of the unseen Renault. The Ferrari took off, landed on its nose and did terrible damage to Pironi's ankles and feet. He never raced again in motorsport.]
I had stopped, of course, and seeing Didier was awful, really awful, I went straight to the Renault motorhome. There was only myself and team boss Gerard Larrousse. He said I should try to get back in the car as soon as possible. I said: "I'm going to go in the car but I'm telling you, from today, I'm going to do what I want to do when it's wet. I want to be the only judge of the best thing to do." I always kept this philosophy even though you cannot apply it all the time.
In 1988 at Silverstone, I can't remember if there was a shunt at the first corner or whatever, but the car was not correct and I didn't understand why. Neil Oatley told me afterwards that the car was bad, which was why I could not drive it. I was nowhere. I decided to stop because you know how it is when it's wet like this; it's fifth gear and you need confidence. I was losing confidence and the car was going nowhere, so I stopped.
People said I couldn't drive in the wet. But I was really good — OK, that's my opinion — when it was wet or slippery. No problem. I like it very much when it's like that. But when it was wet and you had the combination of aquaplaning and poor visibility, I never wanted to take the risk. I was always thinking of Didier. But how do you say that to the press? It's hard, but I lived with it even though I was losing a little bit of credibility with the press, but not really with the team.”
#31
Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:33
Alonso, maybe?
Did he ever impress during rain?
I remember Fuiji 2007...
Silverstone & Hockenheim wet poles in 2012.
#32
Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:34
Alonso, maybe?
Did he ever impress during rain?
I remember Fuiji 2007...
LOL. Do you remember 2012 too?
#33
Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:42
Webber.
He's kinda 50-50 in the wet - had some pretty good ones and then some pretty poor ones. Wouldn't say he doesn't like rain, though he certainly wasn't too keen to get going in the wet in Korea 2010 - but think that was more to do with the championship situation then anything else...
#34
Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:53
I suggest you take a look at Hungary 2006. One of the best drives I've ever seen, wrecked through incompetence.Alonso, maybe?
Did he ever impress during rain?
I remember Fuiji 2007...
#35
Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:56
Speaking of myths, Alain Prost touched upon the issue of him not liking racing in the wet in a recent interview on Autosport.com (sub.req.
Thanks Lustigson - was just going to add that; Prost had a compelling reason not to like the wet...
Prost was hit by Pironi in wet practice for the 1982 German Grand Prix at Hockenheim. Pironi pulled out of the ball of spray that was Daly and drove straight into the ball of unsighted spray that was Prost, slowing to let Daly by. Pironi's car (just like Villeneuves at Zolder) got airborne and flew for some distance before coming down on it's nose. Prost was likely one of the first to the scene and what he saw there changed him. Sid Watkins seriously considered amputating Pironi's legs just to get him out of the car, and though he didn't, in the end, Pironi never raced an F1 car again.
#36
Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:57
Agreed, his driving there was exceptional. Especially when you view the on-board camera. Reflexes were amazing!I suggest you take a look at Hungary 2006. One of the best drives I've ever seen, wrecked through incompetence.
#37
Posted 08 March 2013 - 13:09
#38
Posted 08 March 2013 - 13:11
Of the current bunch, Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel and JB have had some stand-out drives in the wet. Especially Alonso's '06 drive in Hungary, Hamilton at Silverstone and Vettel at Monza.
Unfortunately F1 no longer races in trully wet conditions, although the drivers had no problems testing in such weather at Barcelona...
#39
Posted 08 March 2013 - 13:36
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#40
Posted 08 March 2013 - 13:40
Massa
David Coulthard
It's not like DC disliked rain, that's wrong, but he definitely had performances in opposite ends in the wet. He was not quick in that Belgian GP in '98, but then he had some very, very good drives in wet-races (most recent example Fuji '07), and also some fine qualifying-performances, like Magny-Cours '98 and Hockenheim '00.
#41
Posted 08 March 2013 - 13:45
Was absolutely masterful in Suzuka 1994.Damon Hill
Of course he had some less convincing showings as well -like Spain 1996- but setup choices can play a role too.
#42
Posted 08 March 2013 - 13:55
#43
Posted 08 March 2013 - 14:51
It's not like DC disliked rain, that's wrong, but he definitely had performances in opposite ends in the wet. He was not quick in that Belgian GP in '98, but then he had some very, very good drives in wet-races (most recent example Fuji '07), and also some fine qualifying-performances, like Magny-Cours '98 and Hockenheim '00.
IIRC Interlagos 2001?
#44
Posted 08 March 2013 - 14:51
With the exception of Suzuka 94, Hill was the driver that sprung to mind for me too.Damon Hill
Also, I'm sure I'll be proven wrong, but for a driver that has been considered one of the best in the field for over a decade I don't recall Räikkönen ever dominating a wet race.
Edited by Misk, 08 March 2013 - 14:51.
#45
Posted 08 March 2013 - 15:01
IIRC Interlagos 2001?
ah, how could I forget?! That pass on Schumacher!
#46
Posted 08 March 2013 - 15:10
He "dominated" spa 2008 to a certain point, overtaking both massa and hamilton in the wet, taking over the lead. After that, he put a gap between himself and hamilton quickly, also in "wet" conditions (as far as I can remember). But then again, he crashed at the same race later on when it started raining again.Also, I'm sure I'll be proven wrong, but for a driver that has been considered one of the best in the field for over a decade I don't recall Räikkönen ever dominating a wet race.
Also, I remember him showing great pace in brasil 2003. Not sure whether he dominated that race or not, but at least he didn't crash in those tricky conditions (a lot of drivers acutally crashed that day).
#47
Posted 08 March 2013 - 15:28
Also, I remember him showing great pace in brasil 2003. Not sure whether he dominated that race or not, but at least he didn't crash in those tricky conditions (a lot of drivers acutally crashed that day).
Kimi was the standout driver that day. I've watched that race at least 10 times.
#48
Posted 08 March 2013 - 15:32
Kimi was the standout driver that day. I've watched that race at least 10 times.
DC was quicker that race, I'm 99% sure. (If memory serves...)
#49
Posted 08 March 2013 - 15:34
ah, how could I forget?! That pass on Schumacher!
An excellent move!
Race reports were going crazy with headlines like "Schumacher obviously learned nothing from Spa a few month earlier".
#50
Posted 08 March 2013 - 15:38
An excellent move!
Race reports were going crazy with headlines like "Schumacher obviously learned nothing from Spa a few month earlier".
Yep! A bit strange how "everyone" remembers Häkkinen's pass, but not DC's, also with another car between him and Schumacher, BUT, in the wet!
I guess the answer is that both Schumacher and Häkkinen were seen as titans and arch-rivals.