13 replies to this topic

[pizzalover]

McLaren's stated aim in producing the P1, was to make it the fastest production car around a race track. My question is, would it be faster without the battery power?

The P1 weighs 1400kgs dry. Of this, the battery, motor and ancillaries weight around 140kgs dry. The electric motor puts out 176 bhp, V8 turbo 727 bhp. Down force 600kgs.

Nurburgring less than 7mins.

[mariner]

Of course it would be quicker without the 140kg of weight. Whether that offsets the loss of 176bhp is a different matter - simplisticaly the e-pack has 1.1kg/bhp which is better than the base ratio of about 1.8kg/bhp.

So at that leverl hybrid is always a route to faster lap times, since the other speed detrminant - drag - does go up when the e- pack is added.

So ,there hybrid is always better than non hybrid for racing?

Well, not necesarily

-an extra 140kg would buy you one awful lot of extra IC power- much more than 176 bhp.

- The e-power is only available in short bursts ,the battery might go falt down 3.5 miles of the Mulsanne straight at full power for example.

- If I want short bursts of extra power nitrous is probably much better over a short run.

Some analysis in " racecar enginnering" suggested that for LM1 cars there was little to choose between hybrid and non hybrid cars.

Clearly mfrs are working hard at using hybrid power to boost speeds - I am sure that Porsches new hybrid road sports car will beat the 911 but Porsche are superb engineers so can develop that outcome.

If you stand back from all the hybrid dicsussion its really like giving somebody a free capacity increase , or not adjusting for adding a turbo in the rules.

To draw a parallel the Chaparral 2 J could have been developed to insane downforce with its secondary engine but under F1 rules the need to reduce the drive engine capacity to alow for the suction engine would probably have stopped it working as well as speed driven ground effects.

So if you set out with good engineers to make hybrid faster or teh formula rules are written to encourage hybrid its quicker but if its any power solution is Ok I suspect the same good engineers would always build a faster car without 140kg of part time e - power.

Edited by mariner, 09 March 2013 - 20:31.

[JimboJones]

Agreed.
If you're talking about pure laptime (even at a power circuit like Nordschleife), all of this hybrid stuff is actually slowing you down.
Same goes for LaFerrari, the only way in which the performance can be considered better is in terms of fuel consumption/emissions for a given power output, and that's hardly a high priority for someone looking for this kind of performance. So why do they bother with the complexity, weight and expense of adding a hybrid system?

Conclusion? it's all a gimmick! They are marketing it off the back of new 'F1' technology, rather than pure performance. I think both cars are disappointing in terms of power output. Take a look at SSC, Koenigsegg or Hennessey, they can get 1200hp out of smaller capacity (lighter) V8s... only when you've saturated the IC performance is it worth looking to add electric motors, and McLaren and Ferrari are absolutely no where near this. Considering they are supposed to be the ultimate in performance cars, having an ICE with only 60% the power of a Swedish supercar is pretty poor.

[Wuzak]

Agreed.
If you're talking about pure laptime (even at a power circuit like Nordschleife), all of this hybrid stuff is actually slowing you down.
Same goes for LaFerrari, the only way in which the performance can be considered better is in terms of fuel consumption/emissions for a given power output, and that's hardly a high priority for someone looking for this kind of performance. So why do they bother with the complexity, weight and expense of adding a hybrid system?

Conclusion? it's all a gimmick! They are marketing it off the back of new 'F1' technology, rather than pure performance. I think both cars are disappointing in terms of power output. Take a look at SSC, Koenigsegg or Hennessey, they can get 1200hp out of smaller capacity (lighter) V8s... only when you've saturated the IC performance is it worth looking to add electric motors, and McLaren and Ferrari are absolutely no where near this. Considering they are supposed to be the ultimate in performance cars, having an ICE with only 60% the power of a Swedish supercar is pretty poor.

I would counter thatthe McLaren's turbo V8 is smaller in capacity and lighter than the Koenigsegg's. And the Ferrari's V12 may be longer than the Koenigsegg's V8, but without turbos and extra coolers it is also probably lighter.

[Greg Locock]

Same goes for LaFerrari, the only way in which the performance can be considered better is in terms of fuel consumption/emissions for a given power output, and that's hardly a high priority for someone looking for this kind of performance. So why do they bother with the complexity, weight and expense of adding a hybrid system?

Objectively, yes it is just a gimmick. But in the case of both Ferrari and Mclaren they will always need to emphasis the linkage between road and race cars, and adding KERS to the road cars is one way of reinforcing that image. They might also be running scared of the sanctimonious believers in the new religion, but I can't believe that even those idiots would be fooled by fitting a hybrid system to a 700 hp car. Mind you, a bumper sticker on the back of a Prius "My other hybrid is a Ferrari" would be pretty good.

[gruntguru]

In everyday driving the average power used would be way less than 700 in fact most times less than what the electric motor is capable of. On this basis the KERS probably has a significant effect on economy.

[JimboJones]

I would counter thatthe McLaren's turbo V8 is smaller in capacity and lighter than the Koenigsegg's. And the Ferrari's V12 may be longer than the Koenigsegg's V8, but without turbos and extra coolers it is also probably lighter.

But they both have bloody great battery packs, power electronics and motors, which also all need cooling.

In everyday driving the average power used would be way less than 700 in fact most times less than what the electric motor is capable of. On this basis the KERS probably has a significant effect on economy.

True, but people don't buy these cars for everyday driving, and minding the pennies on fuel consumption...

[jpf]

Is there not some notion that with a hybrid system like this, the battery pack could provide a sufficient electric power buffer to move more ancillaries to electric power? Beyond power steering, things like oil and coolant pumps could be run electrically, and could be run according to required load and not tied to crank speed. The energy is recovered from braking, and so is free (so to speak) compared to crank driven stuff.

Then you can get into fancier stuff like keeping turbos spooled up electrically to eliminate lag, or as noted in the Ferrari thread, using the hybrid motor drive to fill in the power band and let you make more aggressive choices in engine breathing.

Does anyone know for sure if the P1 or LaFerrari are actually doing these things?

[gruntguru]

True, but people don't buy these cars for everyday driving, and minding the pennies on fuel consumption...

I didn't mean "everyday" driving as in commuting etc. Lets call it on-road driving which is what most Ferraris still spend most of their time doing.

[Wuzak]

But they both have bloody great battery packs, power electronics and motors, which also all need cooling.

I thought you were just comparing the engines. Both the Ferrari and McLaren could be run without the electric motors, etc.

Further to what Grunt said, I am not sure if having 1200hp is any good for anything other than having a higher top speed.

[JimboJones]

Then you can get into fancier stuff like keeping turbos spooled up electrically to eliminate lag, or as noted in the Ferrari thread, using the hybrid motor drive to fill in the power band and let you make more aggressive choices in engine breathing.

Does anyone know for sure if the P1 or LaFerrari are actually doing these things?

I believe both are. Ron describes the P1 torque filling here:
http://www.youtube.c...Wf5A2fuQ#t=224s

[carlt]

True, but people don't buy these cars for everyday driving, and minding the pennies on fuel consumption...

They will get cheaper Road Tax for a hybrid though

[MatsNorway]

In Norway we have emissions taxes as well.

Depending on how they test them they could reduce the price.

[BRG]

The point is that all the beautiful people in Hollywood who drive Priuses because they are 'green' will happily buy a hybrid McLaren but would baulk at a 'non-green' Konigsegg. It's all nonsense of course, but that's showbiz.