43 replies to this topic

[Roger Clark]

Before the war and immediately afterwards, drivers generally sat close to the steering wheel and drove with bent arms. During the 1950s, a trend developed to sit further back and drive with the arms almost straight; Moss said he copied this style from Farina. This trend continued in the 1960s with the reclined position, exemplified by the Lotus 25, aimed at reducing frontal area.

The rare pictures you see of a driver in a modern F1 car show that he again has his arms bent and sits close to the wheel. When and why did this trend reverse? Presumably it was to enable them to exert greater force as the steering got heavier due to wider tyres and increased downforce.

I remebmer reading a book by Jackie Stewart in which he talked about the virtues of being close to the wheel, suggesting that the changes ocurred in the early 1970s. I have also seen descriptions of a number of cars over the last 20 years which remark on the reclined position; the Brabham BT55 was one. This suggests that the norm was for a more upright position. Do today's cars have a reclined driving position?

[FLB]

Originally posted by Roger Clark

The rare pictures you see of a driver in a modern F1 car show that he again has his arms bent and sits close to the wheel. When and why did this trend reverse? Presumably it was to enable them to exert greater force as the steering got heavier due to wider tyres and increased downforce.

Some 1980's drivers reverted to an arms-extended postion, notably Elio de Angelis (possibly Jacques Laffite also). They felt it gave them a better feel.

[Dennis David]

Farina would say he copied Nuvolari who was his mentor. I'm wondering if weight distribution and frontal crash worthiness has something to do with it? We're only talking inches here. Anyway don't most of the top cars have power steering?

[Wolf]

And new cars seem to have adopted position with elevated legs (supposedly it lessens drivers sensitivity to high G-loads, based on aeronautical expiriences from US military aircraft). Anyways, it looks quite odd to me.;) There's a pic in technical regulations which I'll try to extract later and post it, although I doubt I'll have much success with it.

[Wolf]

And I thought getting that pic would be hard...;) A small feature called screen capture saved the day.

[oldtimer]

IIRC, Phil Hill reported that the 1939 W154 needed the shoulders to be part of the steering effort. Hence the close driving positions. Not surprising in a car that went to the line weighing well over 2500 lbs.

[RehsperW]

I thought the more upright driving position of modern F1 cars was for packaging. The upright position allows the driver's legs to be back far enough in the car for frontal crashworthiness, while not messing up the overall length of the car.

Having the steering wheel close to the driver lets him work the wheel with less effort. That way he doesn't have to put so much effort into just holding up his arms.

Just a thought.

[dbltop]

i believe it was coulthard who described modern day f1 seatin positions as "sitting in the bath with ones feet on the taps".

[Roger Clark]

wolf's picture looks like a very reclined position. I thought that they legs up stance was to allow for the high nose.

[Keir]

Being an ex formula car driver, one has to get used to a reclined driving position. Some of the guys in Formula Vee were almost flat on their backs and your shoulders really don't enter into the steering effort equation unless you are in a very slow hairpin. I certainly developed muscles in some new places!!!

[Jeroen Brink]

Odd. Was this position of the driver not why one of the last Gordon Murray F1 creations flopped? I mean the ultra-low Brabham in which Elio de Angelis lost his life in in Paul Ricard in 1986.

[deangelis86]

Correct, it was that very car.

However whilst the driving position was radically reclined, this was not really the main reason why the Brabham BT55 was such a lemon - only a contributory factor at best.

A whole host of other problems like for example, canting the Bee Emm engine over at a 45 degree angle for effectively scuppered the project.

Of course in 1988 Murrays perseverence in the 'lie down' position paid handsome dividends for McLaren.

www.geocities.com/chasey_uk/eliodeangelis.html

[Jeroen Brink]

Even though he produced this lemon, the thinking behind it was original and intelligent. Gordon Murray, Mauro Forghieri and Colin Chapman were of a different league than todays more specialist engineers, which are much less inspiring to me.

[fines]

I happen to think that the BT55 Brabham and the JS31 Ligier were two examples of very brilliant ideas failing to work completely. Yes, the MP4/4 McLaren was designed around a similar idea to the BT55, and Murray was by then on the pay roll of McLaren, but he had absolutely nothing to do with the design IIRC.

BTW, who's finally going to make the Ligier's principles work?

[Keir]

Anyone out there have some pics of the Brab and Ligier for side by side examples???

[Wolf]

Speaking of driving positions, there is superb photo of Jimmy Clark in his Lotus 25 with fairing removed in 'The Cruel Sport'.
BTW, can someone enlighten me on the Ligier? I guess I'll manage to find a photo, but what's with 'principles'? Heh, I just noticed that Motorsport Retro is has put archives back on line (although, up to '75).

[deangelis86]

I think you are correct in saying that Fines.

The McLaren MP4/4's design was credited to Steve Nicholls, but the teams overall technical direction was steered by Murray, and it was pretty obvious that by 1988 he had input a great deal into the design.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Wolf
Speaking of driving positions, there is superb photo of Jimmy Clark in his Lotus 25 with fairing removed in 'The Cruel Sport'.

I'm troubled, Wolf, by this statement.... what fairing?

The cockpit? It must be an elevated shot?

[Jeroen Brink]

The position of the hands of Jean Alesi: Close to eachother on top of the steering wheel (more five to one o’clock instead of ten to two o’clock, so to speak). Regardless whether the track was/is wet or dry

Or the way Arnoux sat in the Ferrari 126C2B in 1983 for example, leaning forward as if he was looking for something on the bottom of the cockpit. This looked even more peculiar as the drivers were positioned more towards the cars’ front end compared to now.

[Rainer Nyberg]

The habit of sitting close to the steering wheel is also adopted by the NASCAR guys. This no doubt contibuted to the death of Dale Earnhardt. I remember Dick Johnson remarked on this when he raced a NASCAR at Watkins Glen or Sears Point in the early 1990s.
The wheel was like coming "from a bloody london-bus".
And he duly put in a "normal" race driving wheel in the car.

[Kpy]

Originally posted by Roger Clark
Before the war and immediately afterwards, drivers generally sat close to the steering wheel and drove with bent arms.

Try www.janecorkin.com/artists/krull/bigpictures/krull-autounion4.jpg

[Wolf]

Ray, I may have used wrong word- it has most of the bodywork removed (so one can see the whole driver in his driving position, pedals, fuel tanks in front, 'dashboard' from back side). Photo is taken head on (half past twelwe, I'd say).

[Ray Bell]

Not meaning to be picky, Wolf, but the 25's side panels didn't come off (unless you were Trevor Taylor...) and thus a true profile as in the drawing above couldn't be seen. You follow what I mean?

[Wolf]

Ray- that monocoque wasn't that high (in fact, his arms rested on it)... I'll post picture in few hrs, and everything will be clear. I thought it wasn't 25 but the photo was taken in Monza (IIRC) '62, and 25 was the only monocoque around back then.

[BRG]

It is interesting that most top touring car and rally car drivers now choose to sit close to the wheel with bent elbows. In "tintops" there is plenty of room (cage permitting) for a choice of positions, yet they still opt for close-up. I don't really understand why as they all have power-steering, although of course the driver is often positioned more centrally in the car for wight distribution purposes.

In formula cars, all sorts of design considerations affect the driving position (most notoriously in the cramp-inducing March/Leyton House cars) and the driver's preference comes well down the list of priorities. Incidentally, I was horrified by this tale that Ferrari dodn't even give Barrichello a seat-fitting last year and he had to use a seat made for Schumacher - if that didn't persuade him that he was No 2, nothing would!

[Wolf]

OK, here's the photo I was talking about. I hope noone minds me cutting it down in size and fiddling with duotones (kinda like the 'oldish' looks of it)...


And here's the link to original scan (in case someone wishes to D/L it). The size is thrice the resolution of previos photo.
Big Pic (209k)

[Kpy]

Brilliant image Wolf. I'll have to ignore W. Boddy's advice of all those years ago - to avoid the book because it mentioned that it was possible to die in a racing car - and buy a copy.
thanks for the image

Best wishes - Kpy

[Wolf]

Kpy, I like the book very much (with a lot of nice photos, 150ish, IIRC- ranging from Ferrari and BRM rear ends to closeups of drivers in final stages of a race). It's about period between '59 and '63 (the book is still at the shop where I left it for this pic to be scanned).

When I was just a Cub, I must admit that the pictures in the last (or second last) chapter conspicuosly named 'Accident'* scared me a lot, and I avoided it.;) I dare say tht pictures were neither gruesome nor 'blood-thirsty'- just a tad ominous... Even today I'm not all too fond of watching a shot of Gurney passing wreck of Trips' Ferrari, or Mairese being carried on stretchers.

BTW, I think I saw it the other day (must be yesternight) on 'Collectors Carbooks'. I'll check it out later and drop You a link, if You want.

[Wolf]

Kpy- Cruel Sport @ Collectors Carbooks, although 50 quid...

[Ray Bell]

Meant to say, on this subject, ever notice Fangio's way of holding the wheel, with his hands low?

Very relaxed, yet good control...

[Gil Bouffard]

It is all a case of how much rubber meets the road.

I believe that today's racing cars use power steering.I do know that Trans Am and NASCAR racers do use power steering. No need to worry about where you put your hands.

In the old days the driving position was related to leverage. As the cars got smaller and lighter aaaaannnd the tire footprint remained the same, there was no need for all that leverage. Then the fffaaaatttt tires increased the footprint and made the cars harder to turn. The tiny Jockey like physiques of the racing driver of today means that there has to be some sort of power assist to move the steering wheel.

Gil

[dbw]

just a comment on vintage driving positions.....in the gp bugatti,the driving position is high, bolt upright with the wheel in your chest....this actually works quite well as it allows the driver a good view of the contact patch of both front tires....with a fairly heavy engine over a beam axle with a fair bit of caster it takes a lot of grunt to change direction!an interesting aside,the bug steering wheel, with it's long thin spokes,served as a shock absorber for the driver's hands...some contemporary wheels actually had leaf springs for spokes... the bug,with low body side cutouts, the steering wheel also served as a grab-bar to help stabilize the driver....to top it all,a body belt is a must even on a resonably smooth track....it's fun to blast around the block in the bug and then hop in my europa for the polar opposite of driving positions.

[Wolf]

And there's a photo in 'Design & Behaviour ...' of Moss 'hanging' out of his tiny Cooper in a bend. He said he had to get rid of the habbit of holding on the sides of the car when he got into GP cars.

[oldtimer]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Meant to say, on this subject, ever notice Fangio's way of holding the wheel, with his hands low?

Very relaxed, yet good control...

Good control, eh? Tad of English-style understatement there, Ray!

[Twin Window]

This is a very interesting thread which I will return to, when time permits, with my ten-penneth! In the meanwhile, I imagine there are other members like me who haven't seen this and who'd like to contribute...

[Ian McKean]

Originally posted by Wolf
And there's a photo in 'Design & Behaviour ...' of Moss 'hanging' out of his tiny Cooper in a bend. He said he had to get rid of the habbit of holding on the sides of the car when he got into GP cars.

The last time I went to Prescott there was someone driving a Cooper 500 who was cornering with one hand on the wheel and the other on the side of the body trying to keep himself in the seat. I forget his name, but he seemed like he'd had his brain removed. (I.e. he was quick!)

[Arthur Anderson]

Originally posted by Gil Bouffard
It is all a case of how much rubber meets the road.

I believe that today's racing cars use power steering.I do know that Trans Am and NASCAR racers do use power steering. No need to worry about where you put your hands.

In the old days the driving position was related to leverage. As the cars got smaller and lighter aaaaannnd the tire footprint remained the same, there was no need for all that leverage. Then the fffaaaatttt tires increased the footprint and made the cars harder to turn. The tiny Jockey like physiques of the racing driver of today means that there has to be some sort of power assist to move the steering wheel.

Gil

A lot has to do with the type of steering gear used. It wasn't until the mid-1930's, in passenger cars, for example, that reversible steering gears came into use, By reversible, I mean "self-centering" steering, where the natural tendency of a properly set up front end causes the wheels to "want" to return to a straight-ahead position when the car is in motion. From the earliest steering gears until General Motors perfected their "recirculating ball" steering gear, and others adopted roller or ball type steering gears, the only thing available was "worm and sector", which of course works very much like the winding/setting stem on your wristwatch (while turning the worm will rotate the sector, it's pretty nigh impossible to turn the worm by applying force to the sector). Therefore, those old cars, be they passenger cars or racing machines had to be steered constantly, not only into a turn, but also steered out of it, by physically turning the steering wheel back to straight-ahead. This, coupled with the often awful transmitting of road shock through the steering wheel, virtually dictated large diameter steering wheels, which work best when the driver is positioned close enough to the wheel that his elbows are splayed out to the sides or below.

Rack & Pinion often requires much more effort to turn the front wheels, but that's because this type of steering gear is totally reversible, meaning that one can rotate the steering wheel by simply taking hold of a front wheel and turning it side-to-side by hand, which can't be done with any form of worm & sector, even difficult with the recirculating ball type of gear, or any other form of ball or roller steering gear. Interestingly, Model T Fords used, at their beginning, a simple, "Go-Kart" steering setup, the steering column shaft simply having an arm at the bottom (front) connected to a steering shaft actuating on the left front wheel, with of course, a tie rod between the two front wheels. By about 1916 or so, Ford added a small planetary reduction gearbox to the bottom of the column, which reduced the effort for the driver, but still had plenty of road feel (for better or worse). As a result of this type of steering gear, Model T's used, througout the the production run (19 years, some 15.5 million cars) a far smaller steering wheel than almost every other car on the road. With the introduction of the Model A, with its conventional worm & sector steering gear, the steering wheel suddenly became about 18" in diameter.

With rack & pinion, and a fairly lightweight car, the steering ratio can be quite quick, so the driver isn't having to swing the steering wheel nearly as far as with any sort of sector-type gear, makes it very possible to position the driver well back from the steering wheel. Not all Mascar drivers sit close, with elbows seriously bent--some do, others prefer the "straight-arm" style of driving. With midgets, sprint cars, and most other dirt track cars, power steering allows a very quick steering ratio, so the driver can make quick corrections (watch a dirt track race, particularly a midget or sprint car show), you will see the front wheels moving back and forth quite a bit in the turns, as the driver fights the ruts and bumps that do develop quickly on dirt. Hence, power steering helps greatly. No longer are these drivers virtually required to have lower arms that would make Popeye (the cartoon character) jealous, no longer do they train, as the late Wilbur Shaw did, with a steering wheel attached to a rotary hydraulic shock absorber, to build up the strength to turn the wheel quickly against any great resistance.

Art

[dbw]

a small correction; the model t ford was introduced in 1909 with a set of planetary reduction gears at the top of the steering column ...this feature continued thruout production till 1927. early cars had a 14 1/4 dia steering wheel..reasonable with high pressure smooth tires..the steering wheel diameters increased in increments of 15",16" and finally 17" in 1925-27[in '27 the ratio was changed to 5:1 most probably because of wider,treaded "balloon" tires...pretty much all the other specs stayed the same]

the morgan three-wheeler however started out with 1:1 "go kart" style steering-the result was the "darting" seen in early cars...morgan went to a 2:1 reduction box under the steering wheel and later a 4:1....

[bill moffat]

Originally posted by Ian McKean


The last time I went to Prescott there was someone driving a Cooper 500 who was cornering with one hand on the wheel and the other on the side of the body trying to keep himself in the seat. I forget his name, but he seemed like he'd had his brain removed. (I.e. he was quick!)

Most of the quick 500 hillclimb drivers adopt this technique as far as I know. Quite simply you sit on the thing rather than within it and, particularly at a hairpin such as "Pardon" , you will end up in the spectator enclosure if you don't hang on. The alternative is to stick a roll hoop on it and then buckle yourself in, but this totally cocks up the chassis flexing that helps a 500 handle.

How about the Arrows A2 for a non-workable driving position. Southgate's ultimate wing car proved a blind-alley, apart from the duff aerodynamics contorting the poor drivers also helped little.

As an aside has anyone ever conceived a formula car with the driver lying head first ....?

[petefenelon]

There was of course this Arrows sketch which seems to offer a very odd driving position....

[Racer.Demon]

I'll top that with the unraced Alfa 160 4WD car which projected intensely rearward driving position was tested on a modified 159 hack by Sanesi in 1953.

But of course nothing can beat the driving position in the delicately balanced Schnorrcedes that a its driver Von Grips was tortured into by his bullying boss Altbauer... "Ve believe zat ze car is ze main zing to conzider, and zat man must be a slave of his machine"...

[bill moffat]

..whilst if we go back the best part of 100 years the French Bedelia cyclecar placed the driver in tandem BEHIND the riding mechanic / co-driver or whatever you called him. Probably the first recorded example of a driver having the comfort of a deformable structure in front of him...

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by bill moffat


As an aside has anyone ever conceived a formula car with the driver lying head first ....?

Pomeroy suggested this in "Design and Behaviour of the Racing Car" as a means of reducing frontal area below that achieved by the Lotus 25. Fortunately, nobody tried it. I believe that the rules of Formula 1 were changed to prevent anybody doing so.

[jgm]

Wasn't it the Amon F1 car which started the modern trend for using a large central fuel tank and a more upright driving position?