258 replies to this topic

[ensign14]

In 1955, at Le Mans, Pierre Levegh launched off the back of Lance Macklin and his Mercedes somersaulted through the crowd. Eighty people were killed, hundreds injured.

Yet they carried on racing. Because it was the best thing to do. Stopping the race would have interfered with the emergency services trying to tend to the dead and injured. A hundred thousand people trying to get out as ambulances tried to get in would have caused even more deaths.

It was insanely dangerous back then yet people still raced. People paid fortunes to race. You think ride buyers are new? Go back to the twenties even and you can find aristocrats, princes, millionaires buying Bugattis and taking a punt with them. Some of them were very good. They had everything that life then could bring and yet they still risked it all.

Even today people pay millions for a Formula 1 drive. The place at the top table is that desirable. And we lionize the heroes. Those who take it right to the edge, sometimes over it. We watch the tightrope walker to see how he does it, not for him to fall off. And if there's a safety net there, it's not a major achievement to cross 50 feet up, it's meh.

So what do we get nowadays? **** all. It's a bit damp, so they cancel it.

It wasn't even super-wet. They were on ****ing intermediates in Q1.

I might go out for a drive today. It's wet here. But the government's not going to ban people going out on wet roads because it trusts people to be able to cope with the conditions.

These are meant to be the best drivers in the world and the FIA refuses to let them have a go?

Are they really the best then?

Christ on a ****ing bike. HE never had any problem with the wet...

[Wingcommander]

The pinnacle of motorsport!

[Meanbeakin]

It's sad that with what people went through in the 50s/60s and 70s to get safety in F1 that it seems people want to start going backwards.

I'll just say, watch the 2003 Brazilian GP. It was mostly intermediate weather but because of a river running through the first chicane, you had drivers aquaplaning off (I think it was 6 in total?). Aquaplaning isn't racing. THAT is the issue. Over the past few years standing water has always been the issue. Even if it's only in one section of the track it can still have dire consequences.

Edited by Meanbeakin, 16 March 2013 - 08:00.

[HP]

Thank the insurance companies today for such things.

[TIFOlonSO]

I must agree with ensign.
This is getting too commercial to be worth watching.

[ensign14]

I'll just say, watch the 2003 Brazilian GP. It was mostly intermediate weather but because of a river running through the first chicane, you had drivers aquaplaning off (I think it was 6 in total?). Aquaplaning isn't racing. THAT is the issue. Over the past few years standing water has always been the issue. Even if it's only in one section of the track it can still have dire consequences.

Aquaplaning, shmaquaplaning. They were on intermediates at the end of Q1. Ergo everyone out there thought it was not that wet.

[Bartonz20let]

Can't take a post seriously when it starts by insinuatin 80 people dying and 100's injured is ok?

Flabbergasted

Edited by Bartonz20let, 16 March 2013 - 08:07.

[Kingshark]

The track was in intermediate conditions.
F1 can’t drive in the rain anymore. This is a farce.


I can’t believe this was only 4.5 years ago. What a joke this sport has become.


They kept delaying Q2 because of more rain threats (not rain itself).
Today the circuit, was at no point anywhere near as bad as Fuji '07 or Silverstone '08; yet the delayed it, delayed it, and delayed it.

I hope it rains tomorrow too.

[goldenboy]

jeez stay positive, you get an action packed sunday.

[Bartonz20let]

Aquaplaning, shmaquaplaning. They were on intermediates at the end of Q1. Ergo everyone out there thought it was not that wet.

Rain got worse last few mins of q1

[Meanbeakin]

Can't take a post seriously when it starts by insinuatin 80 people dying and 100's injured is ok?

Flabbergasted

This.

[Steve99]

There's also the issue of fading light.

[jjcale]

Can't take a post seriously when it starts by insinuatin 80 people dying and 100's injured is ok?

Flabbergasted

You missed the point ... he is saying that was not OK - but they raced anyway.

[Muppetmad]

Were conditions getting worse? I recall Vettel had set a purple S1 and S2 and only backed off in S3 due to Guttierez's accident - that's proof right there that conditions were at the very least drivable.

[alframsey]

Well I don't think anybody wants to go back to the 50/60/70's but I must admit I hate hearing rain forecast now, it excited me a few years back nowadays the lightest drizzle and we start behind the safety car, a moderate shower and qualy is delayed or postponed. Isn't this supposed to be the pinnacle of Motorsport? Then surely the drivers should be able to handle rain.... even a few years back I remember some bloody brilliant wet racing without the need to start behind a safety car o why the need to be over the top cautious now?

[Kingshark]

I guess I missed the moment where the track was actually too wet to drive; because it never was, at no point.

Ahead of Q1, DC said that the cutt-off time between Inters and Full Wets would be a 1:47. Rosberg, on his first lap, did a 1:48.024.

In other words, in F1 today, Wets are virtually useless and shouldn't be developed at all. They red flag/SC/cancel the event as soon as Inters can’t handle the situation anymore.

[ensign14]

You missed the point ... he is saying that was not OK - but they raced anyway.

Exactly. The reductio ad absurdum over what happened today is they won't race when it's wet at all. Then they won't race when it's damp, when there's too much wind, when there's too much sand or whatever. We already have the Show Car when people are getting bored or the Chosen One isn't winning. We're getting closer and closer to overtly rigged parades.

[Kingshark]

Rain got worse last few mins of q1

They were all on Inters during the last few minutes of Q1. A light drizzle took place, and they delayed Q2.

Pathetic.

[stanga]

On sky they showed how Massa and another driver lost it on the black painted white lines, on the racing line.

If this was a normal track, they'd be racing.

Edited by stanga, 16 March 2013 - 08:16.

[tremolo]

You should ask for a full refund, ensign14.

[Cyanide]

Ah well. More F1 for tomorrow.

[Jimisgod]

On sky they showed how Massa and another driver lost it on the black painted white lines, on the racing line.

If this was a normal track, they'd be racing.

What, a sanitized Tilke carpark?

Next time they will stop the race because of too much sun on the track that makes the tyres 'unsafe' from wear. What bullshit.

[superdelphinus]

Ah well. More F1 for tomorrow.

And a bit tonight

[Kingshark]

On sky they showed how Massa and another driver lost it on the black painted white lines, on the racing line.

If this was a normal track, they'd be racing.

It's not as if Albert Park is any more dangerous than Monaco



The conditions were visibly equally bad or worse. What a joke this sport has turned into, in only 5 years.

[Bartonz20let]

Look everytime they drive on that, the risk of the inevitable occuring, serious injury or death. Have some perspective, they may be paid well to take risks but putting lives on the line for out pleasure?

[itsademo]

Aquaplaning, shmaquaplaning. They were on intermediates at the end of Q1. Ergo everyone out there thought it was not that wet.

so your selfish attitude is you would rather risk drivers lives today than wait till tomorrow morning and do it with hopefully less risk to life when the weather should be better hence safer and second they will actually be able to see where they are going hence give a better show for people like you too!
Remember its not the drivers or teams or even the FIA who decide if they should race or not its race control who have the final say.
You also ignore the fact they do not need standing water on a street track like this all those white lines which have been painted black are worse than standing water as sky showed many spins were simply because of dampness on those many many painted lines many of them directly on the racing line.
As we have seen many times in recent years they have run qually in far worse conditions but on purpose built ace tracks not converted public roads.
Yes I too was disappointed that we never got to see qually finish
However I would rather see a better and safe finish to qually tomorrow than risking injured drivers today

[jjcale]

Its too commercialised ...

1. They dont have enough wet tyres to cope with anything more than the race itself being wet.... so no wet qualies if rain is forecast for the race and definitely no wet FPs.... so of course the drivers are tripping over themselves as soon as they have to do something really demanding like a quali session in the wet (... even on a day like today when it was not that bad)..... They dont have enough wet tyres because they are trying to save a bit of money.

2. The start time is dictated by the European TV companies ... I dont need to say more on this we all know the implications.

3. They cant just call off a session at the start even if they want to because they have to provide some kind of content for TV .... so they dick us around for an hour or more instead of just saying what they really planned to do all along.... simply in order to fill up TV time.

F1 needs to be careful ....the internet means that we have access to all kinds of racing that we could never see before on TV... I quite like Japanese sportcar sprint racing (imagine a grid full of Satos) ... Its not on TV but I can watch it delayed on the net..... I dont have to put up with their crap - and if they keep pushing something is going to break.

[chumma]

I was at the circuit and they could have very easily ran the cars at 6:30 the conditions didnt change at all after the rain after q1. Everyone knew it wouls be cancelled due to light. The right decision was made though, it was crazy dark at 6:50 when they called in, looks alot brighter on tv than it really was

[stanga]

What, a sanitized Tilke carpark?

Next time they will stop the race because of too much sun on the track that makes the tyres 'unsafe' from wear. What bullshit.

Cool your jets. I meant a track without scores of white lines painted across the track

[Muppetmad]

Look everytime they drive on that, the risk of the inevitable occuring, serious injury or death. Have some perspective, they may be paid well to take risks but putting lives on the line for out pleasure?

But they risk that every time they do that in the dry. If you look at it, there hasn't been a "serious injury or death" in wet conditions in F1 in a long time - somebody can cite a number for me if they want - it's the dry condition accidents that are more prone to causing injury (Perez at Monaco last year, Glock at Japan in 2009, Kubica at Canada in 2008). I'm not saying that this means they should be thrown out on track whatever the weather, but I'm saying your argument can easily be applied whatever the conditions - they risk their lives irrespective of the weather. Massa's injury at Hungary in 2009 is proof enough of that.

Edited by Muppetmad, 16 March 2013 - 08:34.

[itsademo]

It's not as if Albert Park is any more dangerous than Monaco



The conditions were visibly equally bad or worse. What a joke this sport has turned into, in only 5 years.

Shame you ignore the increased amount of painted lines and the fact many are on the racing line in Albert park against having far fewer and almost all of those being offline in Monaco?

[Slartibartfast]

Look everytime they drive on that, the risk of the inevitable occuring, serious injury or death. Have some perspective, they may be paid well to take risks but putting lives on the line for out pleasure?

What's inevitable about it?

Here's some perspective: Let the drivers be the judges of their ability to drive. Otherwise, why allow them to race in the dry either?

[HuddersfieldTerrier1986]

They were all on Inters during the last few minutes of Q1. A light drizzle took place, and they delayed Q2.

Pathetic.

They delayed Q2 because it poured down. It might have been light drizzle at the very end of Q1, but it wasn't long after Q1 ended that the heavy stuff started coming down.

Edited by HuddersfieldTerrier1986, 16 March 2013 - 08:34.

[MortenF1]

HP makes a good, valid point, but in addition to that - if the medic heli cannot take off, there will be running, and today it was too windy for that.

[jjcale]

so your selfish attitude is you would rather risk drivers lives today than wait till tomorrow morning and do it with hopefully less risk to life when the weather should be better hence safer and second they will actually be able to see where they are going hence give a better show for people like you too!
Remember its not the drivers or teams or even the FIA who decide if they should race or not its race control who have the final say.
You also ignore the fact they do not need standing water on a street track like this all those white lines which have been painted black are worse than standing water as sky showed many spins were simply because of dampness on those many many painted lines many of them directly on the racing line.
As we have seen many times in recent years they have run qually in far worse conditions but on purpose built ace tracks not converted public roads.
Yes I too was disappointed that we never got to see qually finish
However I would rather see a better and safe finish to qually tomorrow than risking injured drivers today

Are you serious??

They risk their lives every time they go into the car ... its a question of degrees and the risk is not that much greater to run in the wet nowadays.

I dont think today's decision was really about driver safety... they were on inters at the end of Q1 ... I suspect the real risk they were avoiding was the risk of running out of wet tyres if, as forecast, the race is wet tomorrow.

[BigCHrome]

I call this the Vettel age. Everything is sterilized byond belief, cars are being driven at 50% because of the crap tires, the art of passing has been nutered down to PUSH TO PASS. It's a complete sham.

[Bartonz20let]

But they risk that every time they do that in the dry. If you look at it, there hasn't been a "serious injury or death" in wet conditions in F1 in a long time - somebody can cite a number for me if they want - it's the dry condition accidents that are more prone to causing injury (Perez at Monaco last year, Glock at Japan in 2009, Kubica at Canada in 2008). I'm not saying that this means they should be thrown out on track whatever the weather, but I'm saying your argument can easily be applied whatever the conditions - they risk their lives irrespective of the weather.

Judging by the amount of incidents in 20mins of wet running today it's clear that accedents are more likely in the wet ergo injury is more likely in the wet.

If something bad were to happen I wonder if people around hear would brush it off so readily because the media would crucify the sport and if they took unnecessary risks, they would be right to be crucified.

I'm not saying this has been handled well but the right decision in the end IMO.

Also not just driver safety to take into account. Public need to be considered too.

Edited by Bartonz20let, 16 March 2013 - 08:43.

[ryan86]

HP makes a good, valid point, but in addition to that - if the medic heli cannot take off, there will be running, and today it was too windy for that.

There is a hospital with a major trauma unit on the outside of Turn 11.

[BoschKurve]

I remember when racing used to be a sport for men, as opposed to being filled with a number of androgynous-looking drivers. No qualifying years ago would have been canceled for such trivial weather conditions. I imagine we're not all that far from the day where F1 will no longer race in the rain.

[MortenF1]

There is a hospital with a major trauma unit on the outside of Turn 11.

It's my understanding that unless a medic heli cannot lift, they simply wont run, no matter the facilities on-track.

[NZX_Lorne]

Isn't part of the problem the stupid rules - i.e. teams can't change setups for the race, hence the teams - expecting full dry conditions tomorrow - are running full dry setups in the wet?

In any event, I would have liked to see the FIA add 5 (un-timed) minutes to the start of Q2, allowing the drivers to test the conditions, after which the drivers would vote (secret vote not made public) as to whether Q2 should continue as normal or be called off.

Edited by NZX_Lorne, 16 March 2013 - 08:50.

[Bartonz20let]

Isn't part of the problem the stupid rules - i.e. teams can't change setups for the race, hence the teams - expecting full dry conditions tomorrow - are running full dry setups in the wet?

In any event, I would have liked to see the FIA add 5 (un-timed) minutes to the start of Q2, allowing the drivers to test the conditions, after which the drivers would vote (secret vote not made public) as to whether Q2 should continue as normal or be called off.

If I understand correctly wet and dry setups are almost identical in this form of F1?

[ryan86]

Isn't part of the problem the stupid rules - i.e. teams can't change setups for the race, hence the teams - expecting full dry conditions tomorrow - are running full dry setups in the wet?

In any event, I would have liked to see the FIA add 5 (un-timed) minutes to the start of Q2, allowing the drivers to test the conditions, after which the drivers would vote (secret vote not made public) as to whether Q2 should continue as normal or be called off.

My feeling to that would be that some, if not the majority of drivers, would end up voting not on whether the conditions were acceptable, but on whether not it was beneficial for themselves.

Edited by ryan86, 16 March 2013 - 08:53.

[stuck-in-first-gear]

Ensign never misses an opportunity to showcase his in-depth knowledge about the history of motorsport - did u actually get up in time this morning to watch the qualifying?

[just me again]

Have not seen qualifying. I have to be carefull.

I think Like Ensign 14 That This have gone to far.

It's not possiblefor mé to understand how they Can cancel when cars was not even driving on wet tyres.
They should be more strict with driving standars and unneccesary risk taking.
If not on wet tyres drivers should be punished for cousing yellow flags.
Why they were Not Wets to begin with?
I say why: because Thère have been No sessions in recent times were Wets have been quickest. If intermideas was not suitable. The session/race Got canseled.

I think some of the current standards started in That race in Brazil Many years ago.
Drivers was crashing under safety car. Without getting reprimands. Why? Under safety car the race is stopped. Thère is No overtaking. Just drive slower ud you have to.
Thère is Also the Alonso thing. Going full speed in a full course yellow and hevay crashing in to the already crashed car without a race Ban or even just a small reprimand. Shocking!!!!

Hopes This Can be read. It's written on my iPhone , which is not the easy for mé to dó

Bjørn

[Darth Sidious]

I remember when racing used to be a sport for men, as opposed to being filled with a number of androgynous-looking drivers. No qualifying years ago would have been canceled for such trivial weather conditions. I imagine we're not all that far from the day where F1 will no longer race in the rain.

F1 no longer races in rain. They just circulate behind a safety car until the rain becomes light drizzle.

[NZX_Lorne]

My feeling to that would be that some, if not the majority of drivers, would end up voting not on whether the conditions were acceptable, but on whether not it was beneficial for themselves.

Yeah, that is true.
Then perhaps make it so that 90% of the drivers have to be in favor of continuing.

[August]

You know something is wrong when you can't race in perfectly normal wet conditions, like today. Red flags are OK in extream rainfall like at Nürburgring '07 and Malaysia '09. But today wasn't an unusually heavy rain, so the counditions should've been OK.

Btw. how many series would've driven in today's conditions.

[DS27]

Beyond a joke. Bring back tyres that can cope with monsoon conditions (not that they were necessarily needed today) and make them qualify. If any drivers feel it is unsafe, fine, they can start at the back.

This pathetic 'so you want the drivers to risk their lives' BS makes me sick.

Edited by DS27, 16 March 2013 - 09:18.

[Nonesuch]

My feeling to that would be that some, if not the majority of drivers, would end up voting not on whether the conditions were acceptable, but on whether not it was beneficial for themselves.

This is true, and happens in pretty much every situation where people vote on something. It was painfully obvious in Korea in 2010 when Red Bull & Vettel were continuously complaining in near-apocalyptic terms about how terrible the weather was, while Hamilton and some of the other challengers similarly declared everything to be just fine.

Anyway, this whole situation is indeed quite laughable and yet another stain on F1's claimed reputation as the so-called "pinnacle of motorsport".

Edited by Nonesuch, 16 March 2013 - 09:15.