53 replies to this topic

[Wiggy]

When I was growing up watching F1, Williams was a major force in F1, star drivers, rich sponsors, the best designers, and for a while Ferrari, McLaren and Williams were all in the mix for 'most amount of WCCs'

Then came 1998, and it all began to unravel, and despite a brief attempt at success as the BMW works team, they have floundered and ended up a mid/rearfield team. Last year seems to have been a bit of a fluke. Toto seems to have been a decent force, but even he jumped ship rather than take the team off Franks hands.

Frank should have invested in the style that McLaren did, during the boom years. Where did all the investment go? Frank is held in high regard, but I do feel he has squandered the chance to make his team a lasting force. Once he chucks in the towel, they will be a force India style operation.

Also, where is Patrick Head, he should be back at the front of shop, growling and banging his fists.

[ApexMouse]

wat

[kartinhero]

Wiggy thread.

[gm914]

Wiggy thread.

[jjcale]

Is it a worse fate for Williams to fade away than to, say, end up become a corporation - half owned by the Bahraini royal family ... but still win some races every season whilst making a half assed show of attempting to compete for the championships?

Wiggy thread.

Its a good point that he has raised ... should Frank have sold his team to investors - like many successful company founders do - in order to move on to the next level of commercial success/stability? I think that's a valid question given how far Williams has fallen down the pecking order.... he's put it in a provocative way, but I prefer to look past that to the real issues.

Edited by jjcale, 16 March 2013 - 14:35.

[noikeee]

I think it's a perfectly valid discussion, no need for the attack on the OP although it's probably not fair to blame Frank 100%:

It's a mix of circumstances, they flopped on all accounts: staff, drivers, manufacturers and sponsors.

Staff - don't forget it all started with the departure of Newey, that was their last championship. Losing their genius technical director was a pretty massive blow at the time - see the difference in competitiveness from '97 to '98 -, couple that with an aging F.Williams/P.Head figurehead pair that faded into the background and never seemed to be properly replaced. I imagine A LOT of important non-star names moved away from Williams throughout the years as well.

Drivers - they were already known for alienating their star drivers during their glory years, see Mansell, Hill and Prost all replaced after the won championships. Then they lose Jacques Villeneuve and for '99 they were stuck with a Ralf-Zanardi duo. Afterwards they did invest in Montoya and to a lesser extent Webber but both failed to meet world-class championship-winning expectations, even in other more competitive teams. Year after year their driving lineups got weaker.

Manufacturers - Works Renault status was one of their strenghts in the 90s, those Renaults were brilliant, come 98 they were given customer engines whilst their rivals McLaren were already in a 3rd year of the partnership with Mercedes, mature enough to dominate things. They took a few more years to get BMW - putting them some 5 years behind McLaren in engine-manufacturer close cooperation - then to make things worse the relationship with BMW went sour as they demanded to own their F1 team. Mc/Merc was a much stabler cooperation.

Sponsors - They may have a massive contract with PDVSA now but at the cost of having to hire a paydriver. When was the last time they had a proper major funding contract like the one McLaren has with Vodafone, or Ferrari with Santander/Philip Morris? When tobacco funding ended Williams got a bunch of tech companies, but I highly doubt the income remained the same or kept up with their major rivals.

Couple everything together and you have a team that could win championship after championship, faded into possibly the 3rd weakest force in F1 - if they really are behind Toro Rosso at the moment.

[saudoso]

Williams was he first to ban tobacco, fell behind then and is still paying for it.

[Longtimefan]

Part of me wants to say its karma for their coverup re: 1994, but tbh I think its mostly finances.
For quite some time now it seems Williams as been on the edge of the abyss, only pay drivers saving them.

Will they have their day again? I'm not sure but I think its very doubtful.

[Peat]

Everyone said he was mad not to sell to BMW.

10 years on, his team is still in the top echelon and keeping lots of people employed.

Hardly a failure.

[Boing 2]

Williams was he first to ban tobacco, fell behind then and is still paying for it.

Stewart was the first to run with a tobacco free portfolio.

[George Costanza]

IMO: Renault leaving in 1997 hurt them pretty badly. Had Renault stayed in, and became a majority partner they could be like Red Bull or Lotus today.... IF they kept Adrian Newey and promoted him as Technical Director, I don't think they would be this bad. They would be top 3 with Ferrari and McLaren, rather easily. I believe Frank admits that he should have never let Newey go, and he would have listened to him more if he had it over again (among other things, I believe it was Newey who wanted Nigel Mansell in 1995 instead of DC, but Patrick and Frank didn't listen. We wouldn't be having this topic had Frank and Patrick let him have more self control and freedom at Williams).

Not selling to BMW hurt, but BMW didn't exactly light up F1 when they brought Sauber.

Edited by George Costanza, 16 March 2013 - 15:14.

[sopa]

It's not about engines or Newey so much, because McLaren doesn't have works engines or Newey any more either, but are still much better and a serious contender. Why? Because their organization overall is much better. I think Frank missed the moment to strengthen the team, infrastructure, personnel, when he had the opportunity and lived in the momentary glory without a long-term vision. It has backfired.

[Petroltorque]

When I was growing up watching F1, Williams was a major force in F1, star drivers, rich sponsors, the best designers, and for a while Ferrari, McLaren and Williams were all in the mix for 'most amount of WCCs'

Then came 1998, and it all began to unravel, and despite a brief attempt at success as the BMW works team, they have floundered and ended up a mid/rearfield team. Last year seems to have been a bit of a fluke. Toto seems to have been a decent force, but even he jumped ship rather than take the team off Franks hands.

Frank should have invested in the style that McLaren did, during the boom years. Where did all the investment go? Frank is held in high regard, but I do feel he has squandered the chance to make his team a lasting force. Once he chucks in the towel, they will be a force India style operation.

Also, where is Patrick Head, he should be back at the front of shop, growling and banging his fists.

Dude, it's time for you to lay off the crack pipe. One sub standard qualifying and it's Sir Frank by the way, has failed them. Williams have got the second best designer in F1 working for them. The team is punching well above its weight division. They know where the performance gain lies. I really do despair of the present MTV generation who can only buy into instant results and instant gratification.

[sopa]

This is not about one substandard qualifying, but general results. WCC results:
2012 - 8th, 2011 - 9th, 2010 - 6th, 2009 - 7th, 2008 - 8th.

So where do you think they will be in 2013? Again somewhere between 7th and 9th. This is their level.

[teejay]

They were at the top of the game from the late 70's to late 90's, a brief return to form, now nothing for a decade.

It is sad to see.

[Massa_f1]

They were at the top of the game from the late 70's to late 90's, a brief return to form, now nothing for a decade.

It is sad to see.

Wrong business choices are to blame. in 1998 I thought it was just a small blip similar to McLaren 92-96 period, but they are not showing any signs of returning to form sadly. I don't think they ever will now under the current ownership.

[TheWilliamzer]

Man.. the car is fine, the Redbull style exhaust and the new sidepods / rear end bodywork is the problem. No need to write the season off from the first couple of runs.

Frank is a wise man and he knows what he's doing. that's it.

[Ickx]

Dude, it's time for you to lay off the crack pipe. One sub standard qualifying and it's Sir Frank by the way, has failed them. Williams have got the second best designer in F1 working for them. The team is punching well above its weight division. They know where the performance gain lies. I really do despair of the present MTV generation who can only buy into instant results and instant gratification.

Well, the "instant" bad results for Williams have been going on for well over a decade now.

Maybe they really are punching above there weight division, the question remain why they are not a heavy weight and have not been for a long time.

Edited by Ickx, 16 March 2013 - 17:00.

[SpaceHorseParty]

Had they agreed to a BMW buyout back in the early 2000s, they might have been better now.

[g1n]

Had they agreed to a BMW buyout back in the early 2000s, they might have been better now.

where are BMW now?

[ApexMouse]

Well, the "instant" bad results for Williams have been going on for well over a decade now.

Maybe they really are punching above there weight division, the question remain why they are not a heavy weight and have not been for a long time.

Money.

[sopa]

Money.

Which means Williams missed the boat to remain a well-funded team, because once up a time Williams was among the richest teams on the grid as well.

[SpaceHorseParty]

where are BMW now?

BMW Sauber outscored Williams every season they competed. Even with BMW withdrawing at the end of 2009, I think Williams in such a scenario would be better than they are now.

[ViMaMo]

Its easy to think back.

[ensign14]

They were doing OK till they signed Mark Webber. Downhill since.

More seriously, it probably goes down to the walrus nose. It didn't work and they've never caught up properly since. Which created a vicious circle - BMW didn't trust them any more and buggered off elsewhere, the results went slightly south, the sponsors ditto, and they ended up sponsored by a Scottish bank just as the Scots were decimating the British economy. Any other sponsor would have been tied in for longer, and it would have been less a distress purchase.

[Myrvold]

BMW Sauber outscored Williams every season they competed. Even with BMW withdrawing at the end of 2009, I think Williams in such a scenario would be better than they are now.

Would it been Williams then? Would Frank Williams (or his family) bought the team back like Peter Sauber did? I don't think so.

[SpaceHorseParty]

Would it been Williams then? Would Frank Williams (or his family) bought the team back like Peter Sauber did? I don't think so.

Probably not, but:
1) the results might have been so good BMW wouldn't withdraw;
2) someone else might have bought out the team, especially due to its history and (possibly) better results.

And I'm sure if BMW were okay with retaining Sauber as a part of the name, they might have agreed to rename the team BMW Williams.

Anyway, all of this is just speculation.

Edited by SpaceHorseParty, 16 March 2013 - 17:37.

[joora]

I think Frank only failed the team for firing Parr. Although I never liked that guy, he put the team on some healthy legs and ensured financial stability. And he was all set to inherit the whole operation. Obviously Bernie's offer to Frank was that good he simply couldn't let it pass - even for the cost of letting Parr go.

Otherwise, I think Frank didn't fail the team in any way - after all, it is his team and he is not a democratically elected leader. In fact, I think Frank did the opposite of failing, he managed to protect the team and ensure it's existence throughout all these years. Sure, Williams isn't the team it used to be, but it's a healthy operation with a legendary status in the sport. How many legendary teams of F1 have faded away with all the name and owner changing?

[saudoso]

Stewart was the first to run with a tobacco free portfolio.

That did him a lot of good too.

[mkoscevic]

Why would Williams have to be present in the future of F1 anyway?

Team was driven by Frank and Patrick for many years and as always things come to an end.

Williams, to me at least, is not the same (great) team unless it's actively supported by Frank and Patrick in their respective areas.

Nowdays it's just another team struggling with lack of money waiting to get lucky. How long can they keep that shaken team up and running? 5-10 years? Does it matter really?

It surely would matter a lot when Frank and Patrick were running the show, when they were successful and when F1 was a slightly different place.

It almost hurts to see Williams next to P18. Go away.

[EvanRainer]

That's what I'm thinking. Face it, Williams IS Frank Williams. Once he is gone from this world, do you really see the team existing for much longer?

[mattferg]

They lost Adrian Newey to McLaren.

[Petroltorque]

I think Frank only failed the team for firing Parr. Although I never liked that guy, he put the team on some healthy legs and ensured financial stability. And he was all set to inherit the whole operation. Obviously Bernie's offer to Frank was that good he simply couldn't let it pass - even for the cost of letting Parr go.

Otherwise, I think Frank didn't fail the team in any way - after all, it is his team and he is not a democratically elected leader. In fact, I think Frank did the opposite of failing, he managed to protect the team and ensure it's existence throughout all these years. Sure, Williams isn't the team it used to be, but it's a healthy operation with a legendary status in the sport. How many legendary teams of F1 have faded away with all the name and owner changing?

Well said. I find the topic particularly distateful at a time when the man is burying his wife!

Edited by Petroltorque, 16 March 2013 - 19:12.

[g1n]

That's what I'm thinking. Face it, Williams IS Frank Williams. Once he is gone from this world, do you really see the team existing for much longer?

well what about McLaren? team exists well beyond its original founder.

[mistareno]

That's what I'm thinking. Face it, Williams IS Frank Williams. Once he is gone from this world, do you really see the team existing for much longer?

I think his daughter will take over the reigns. She's been involved in the day to day operations for some time.

[Myrvold]

well what about McLaren? team exists well beyond its original founder.

A bit different though. I fail to remember a team that have existed for a long time after the original founder died. Ferrari and McLaren being the odd ones in that bunch.

[Anderis]

That's what I'm thinking. Face it, Williams IS Frank Williams. Once he is gone from this world, do you really see the team existing for much longer?

Yes I see. And it will be existing for much longer, I believe. As McLaren exists long after death of it's founder.

You are also forgetting Claire (Frank's daughter) is getting bigger and bigger role in the team recently. I think Frank's purpose was to keep in F1 the team which is name Williams. And he didn't fail. And I'm quite sure he was always looking for a successor who would keep the team's name and identitiy. And it's not a bad idea. Afterall, Williams is still a big name that attracts interest, even if it's not a top team recently. The team could have been in better shape with another ownership, but it's not the route Frank wanted to follow and I'm with him. Let Williams be Williams. Frank put much effort (also financial) trying to rescue the team, which was in disastrous shape financially after BMW's withdrawal in 2006. Since then they've reduced substantial debt (over 20 millions of pounds IIRC) to zero and now they're making financial gains. Why would you want to sell something that makes money? And why would he put so much effort to rescue something with that cost only to keep the team's identity just for a few additional years and then sell and lose all the heritage?

I don't understand people who think that Williams is no longer Williams without Frank and Patrick. But I'm not worried. Williams will remain Williams and will be in F1 for a long time, even if not winning championships or races on regular basis anymore. Why? Because it works well enough to retain themselves in the sport and because Frank wants the team to keep it's heritage.

Edited by Anderis, 16 March 2013 - 19:05.

[Jimisgod]

That did him a lot of good too.

It did become RBR in 2005.

[SpaceHorseParty]

A bit different though. I fail to remember a team that have existed for a long time after the original founder died. Ferrari and McLaren being the odd ones in that bunch.

While Jack Brabham didn't die, his team continued racing for 20 years without his involvement.

[onewingedangel]

We can always run through the what if with hindsight.

Had Williams accepted the BMW offer they would have had new resources including windtunnels put in place at BMW's cost as per Sauber - and even if BMW had still chosen to withdraw following 2009, they would have had the facilities of a big team if not the budget - although if the team was a going concern, even with different shareholders, it would likely have returned a portion of it's sponsors during a bridging period.

Had they chosen to work with Toyota more collaboratively, they may have been able to persuade Toyota to stay on if just as engine supplier, and possibly combine sponsorship following Toyota's withdrawal in 2009.


But things can change quickly - if Williams gets investment from Qatar (as they have been persuing for several years) or VW (whom they work with with hybrid systems), they could rebuild in short order.

[yoyogetfunky]

They lost Adrian Newey to McLaren.

This. Frank Williams has admitted several times he made a mistake not giving Newey a bigger role in the team to keep him happy. Renault leaving made it worse.

They had a second chance with BMW, but kind of messed up that relationship too. Some say its not just Frank, but also Patrick Heads stubborn attitude that costed those relationships to deteriorate.

The tough economic times dont help. Frank Williams stayed for 3 weeks in Abu Dahbi january 2012 to get some oil money into the team. Sadly that failed. Toto Wolff was a good move and so was Mike Coughlan, but it remains to be seen whether Williams will become big again.

In a way the only real safe bet would be to lure a big engine manufacturer back into F1, repeating what BMW managed to do 10 years ago, and develop a real good engine throughout the season. Oh, wait, the engine development freeze...

[UPRC]

I think his daughter will take over the reigns. She's been involved in the day to day operations for some time.

I came in to say the same thing. Claire is his flesh and blood, I'd love to see her in charge of the team someday.

[Jackmancer]

I came in to say the same thing. Claire is his flesh and blood, I'd love to see her in charge of the team someday.

Not Toto Wolff? I always imagined he'd take over. Or not anymore, now he's at Mercedes too?

[Ickx]

This. Frank Williams has admitted several times he made a mistake not giving Newey a bigger role in the team to keep him happy. Renault leaving made it worse.

They had a second chance with BMW, but kind of messed up that relationship too. Some say its not just Frank, but also Patrick Heads stubborn attitude that costed those relationships to deteriorate.
[...]

Wasn't that what was said, at least in some circles, to be the main reason for Head leaving his position? Might have been related to some other key figure now lost.

[Talisman]

That did him a lot of good too.

Yes he made an absolute killing selling the team to Ford.

As for Williams, one bad quali vs the establishment of non f1 income sources primarily under Parr and signing PDVSA, largely securing the future of a team that has been profitable for the past few years? I think they are safe and they will outlive many of the midfielders that might be quicker than them but are struggling to survive.

[Francesc]

Not Toto Wolff? I always imagined he'd take over. Or not anymore, now he's at Mercedes too?

Wolff is only interested in making money.

[Mr Plug]

What a rubbish thread.

Surprise, surprise: Sir Frank doesn't go racing - and never has gone racing - for the benefit of t'internet forums, fans, racegoers, suppliers, partners, employees, media, race organisers, Bernie Ecclestone, the FIA or anyone else. He goes racing because he wants to - and he loves it. It's his life and if you had ever met him you would understand that.

Therefore it is not for us to judge whether he failed Williams or indeed anyone else; all decisions he made were his to make - and only he can know whether they were right or wrong.

[yoyogetfunky]

What a rubbish thread.

Surprise, surprise: Sir Frank doesn't go racing - and never has gone racing - for the benefit of t'internet forums, fans, racegoers, suppliers, partners, employees, media, race organisers, Bernie Ecclestone, the FIA or anyone else. He goes racing because he wants to - and he loves it. It's his life and if you had ever met him you would understand that.

Therefore it is not for us to judge whether he failed Williams or indeed anyone else; all decisions he made were his to make - and only he can know whether they were right or wrong.

and so when frank himself admits he made mistakes, we can discuss those.

[V8 Fireworks]

Williams won a race last year AND they are still in business. This is better than most F1 teams can manage! (Prost, Arrows anyone?)

[V8 Fireworks]

Frank should have invested in the style that McLaren did, during the boom years. Where did all the investment go?

But it's not so easy to stay at the front, look at their 1988 season after being the fastest team in 1987. It doesn't take much at all, to drop off the pace,