145 replies to this topic

[Kvothe]

Great battle,

Anyway priorities, I've been trawling the web, but have been unable to find a picture of the lock-up moment with them both side by side, has anybody stumbled upon one?

Might be too much to ask if there's a high res version but I'll do it anyway

[Mila]

If LH's lock-up was due to a bump in the road on the inside line, why didn't everyone else who took that same line lock-up? This excuse is really silly. What I believe AD should have noticed is that LH was obliged to take the defensive, inside line going into Turn 11. Not only did this likely compromise his speed exiting Turn 12, it obviously caused him to pick-up a ton of clag. Without the clag, LH would have had the grip he expected while braking for Turn 13.

Off-line clag was an issue at Turn 1 as well (maybe elsewhere, I'm not sure).

[Tauhid]

liked both of their racing, Lewis can be really hard to overtake even if he is on a much slower car. I liked it when he just let both Vettel and Massa go easy but take it personally when Alonso was hunting him down. Now you know why he says Alonso is the one to watch out for.

[MrAerodynamicist]

If LH's lock-up was due to a bump in the road on the inside line, why didn't everyone else who took that same line lock-up?

Because bumps are highly localized, and of two drivers taking visually identical lines, only one might actually hit it. Plus you also need to hit it under the right circumstances, to unload the wheel long enough lock it. It certainly wasn't a locked wheel because he missed the braking point and was stomping on the pedalin panic.

[Boxerevo]

People always defend their driver as being the innocent victim in a crash, but I've always maintained that certain drivers such as Alonso, Button and Kimi know how to bring home the points, they race hard, but they also are very good at staying out of other peoples accidents. There was a big argument about whether or not Hamilton could have avoided being taken out by Hulkenburg in Brazil for instance - and now thankfully Alonso has proven that great drivers are also intelligent drivers. It was a top lap of racing by both drivers, but Alonso really showed that aggression and craft is a great combination.

This Hulk example is bs and you know this.

Hulk spun into Lewis,if he didn't had spun everything would be ok and the overtake accepted.

Lewis biggest mistake is that he races everybody the same way,this is beautiful with Alonso,Vettel,Button,Raikkonen... almost every time.

But this can be very dangerous with Massa,Webber,Maldonado sometimes.

I like things fair,there were plenty of moments on Australia that when the overtake was almost sure he lift and let them pass inside or outside.

Edited by Boxerevo, 18 March 2013 - 16:51.

[Bruce]

It was mentioned in the Sky commentary, iirc, that Hamilton's pit crew were out before the flat spot occurred.

If that's the case - why defend so desperately on your in lap and cost yourself time? If you're coming in, lt's likely because your tyres are done. So- what do you achieve by an heroic defence of your position in this particular case? I can completely understand it if you're trying to undercut the guy trying to pass, or if it factors into the race strategy, but for the life of me, all I can see in this case is Hamilton slowing himself down by driving in his mirrors...

[Boxerevo]

If that's the case - why defend so desperately on your in lap and cost yourself time? If you're coming in, lt's likely because your tyres are done. So- what do you achieve by an heroic defence of your position in this particular case? I can completely understand it if you're trying to undercut the guy trying to pass, or if it factors into the race strategy, but for the life of me, all I can see in this case is Hamilton slowing himself down by driving in his mirrors...

Is the way he likes to race,he does like he wants to do and everybody knows that its isn't the smartest thing to do.

He just like racing when the opportunity is given.

[MikeV1987]

I thought that the late braking and resulting lock up was very predictable of Hamilton, I think Alonso planned that out after coming out of turn 12, it was perfect. Alonso knew he would be able to carry more speed through the exit, thats why he chose to stay on the left rather than risk dive bombing on the right, the fact that Hamilton locked up and didn't carry as much speed as he should have made the pass that much easier for Alonso. Great stuff by both drivers, thats why they are considered the best.

Edited by MikeV1987, 18 March 2013 - 17:14.

[Mila]

It certainly wasn't a locked wheel because he missed the braking point and was stomping on the pedalin panic.

Yeah, we're on the same page here; the idea that this was a case of hack driving or any sort of red mist reserved for FA should be dismissed.

However, my sense is that AD's attribution is off-target.

Edited by Mila, 18 March 2013 - 17:05.

[MrAerodynamicist]

Watch the in-car video carefully, and you can see the left-front bobble suddenly a few times immediately before it locks.

[Bruce]

Given the pace differential between Hamilton and Alonso (and Vettel) at that stage it seems certain a stop was imminent.

As for your criticism of hard defending, it appears that you're are being wilfully led by the tyre lock up. As pointed out by Davidson the tyre locked up due to hitting a bump, not excessive or late braking, demonstrated clearly by the fact Hamilton made the apex, made the corner. Similar happened in 2010 at the same corner, between both drivers, with roles reversed, although on that occassion Alonso locked up missed teh apex and ran wide onto the kerb.

Lets' not pretend that Alonso, Button et al are devoid of errors in wheel to wheel battle.

Of course not - but what I am saying is that it is pretty much accepted that if you are "defending your position" you are costing yourself time. This is commented on often by the commentators (Brundle particularly likes to mention it, but didn't in this case). I'd even excuse Hamilton a little for the other race I mentioned (Valencia) as with 2 laps left, a certain amount of desperation and attempting to hang on with your fingernails creeps in...

However, with regard to this case - in his defence, McLaren told him that Alonso was on 3 stops and Hamilton should keep him behind - so one must question the team on this too... but Alonso was catching Hamilton at over a second a lap. Alonso caught Hamilton at the end of lap 31 at which point Hamilton was (according to the last time gap on the telly, taken around 3/4 of the way around) 11.6 seconds behind Kimi. Hamilton made a fairly robust defence of his position and kept Alonso behind him for almost a full lap. But the upshot of this defences was that the last time gap recorded before LH entered the pits showed him 13.6 seconds behind. Some of this would have been just due to Kimi's pace - but in the space of 2 turns (11 to just after 12, just before his lock up) Hamilton loses over a half second to Kimi, much of this would be because he was pulling to the inside to block Alonso, but in doing so, he was running on the marbles.

At this point, Hamilton is 13.638 seconds behind Kimi. The next time gap shows that Alonso has taken 2nd with Lewis pitting, and Alonso, at the first gap published on telly is now 15.883 seconds behind Kimi. He has a "crossover lap" where he gets a little slowed by a Caterham and emerges from that lap a little more than 16 seconds behind KR. Time gaps aren't shown for the next lap and a half bu the next time they are, Alonso has reduced the gap to 14.3 seconds then 13.9...

My point? Alonso went from about 12 seconds behind Kimi when he caught LH to a little over 16 seconds. If Alonso lost that time, then it is likely that hamilton lost an equal amount or more - though difficult to prove with the in lap, pit and out lap.

Perhaps Martin Brundle said it best: "...and that defence against Alonso hurt him (Lewis) badly...".

Brundle was right. What was the point? Do your normal line and let Alonso try the marbles....

Edited by Bruce, 18 March 2013 - 17:28.

[Ellios]

However, with regard to this case - in his defence, McLaren told him that Alonso was on 3 stops and Hamilton should keep him behind - so one must question the team on this too...

Mercedes?

[as65p]

I believe it was Silverstone last year where Hamilton fought Alonso tooth and nail with even less reason than yesterday (being on a different strategie and generally way slower in that race), losing even more time in the process than yesterday.

It's his choice to always try and display some heroics when meeting Alonso on track. As long as it stays clean and fair, like it usually does, fair game. As long as drivers are on the same lap it's obviously not forbidden for them to partially sacrifice their own race in a bid to fight a specific competitor.

[Skinnyguy]

Perhaps Martin Brundle said it best: "...and that defence against Alonso hurt him (Lewis) badly...".

Brundle was right. What was the point? Do your normal line and let Alonso try the marbles....

No he´s not. You never know what will happen in a race. Add a puncture or a big off, or a spin for Alonso, and suddenly he´s racing Lewis. The second difference between pitting in front and behind him could help later.

Only position you must yield is the one you KNOW 100% you won´t be able to fight for later. I.e.: a Caterham desperately blocking a top car starting at the back.

Was it smart? Probably the move didn´t help at all this time, but it help might another one, and as long as you don´t risk your car racing is always a good thing to do.

[maverick69]

Lol.

Is this a slot racing thread or something?

[as65p]

No he´s not. You never know what will happen in a race. Add a puncture or a big off, or a spin for Alonso, and suddenly he´s racing Lewis. The second difference between pitting in front and behind him could help later.

It's always a trade-off with quite a bit of guesswork involved. What you say could happen, yet at the same time it could also happen that the 3 to 4 sec Hamilton loses fighting Alonso could cost him a position vs. another competitor at the finish. Racing is not (and has never been) as simplistic as "car behind: fight for your life!".

[ForzaGTR]

I never expect Alonso, Kimi, Seb or Hamilton to collide with each other. So much respect and professionalism.

[Bruce]

Mercedes?

Ooops. Old habits die hard....

[Bruce]

Was it smart? Probably the move didn´t help at all this time, but it help might another one, and as long as you don´t risk your car racing is always a good thing to do.

Silly response -

You could say that of ANY move. Was Grosjeans move up the inside of Hamilton at Spa last year smart? Well - not that time - but another time he may have made it!

Look - on lap 26 Hamilton was 11.7 seconds behind Kimi. At the beginning of lap 31 he was 12.1 seconds down That means that in 4 laps he lost a tenth a lap. But as soon as Alonso creeps up behind him he begins to lose more... look at the times.

Worse - when Hamilton emerges from his pitstop, he is 41.4 seconds behind Kimi. Given that he was 12 seconds behind Kimi at the start of the lap before his pitstop, and given that a pitstop costs you about 22 to 24 seconds at Melbourne, this suggests that he lost somewhere between 5 to 7 seconds on that single lap (unless he had a torrid pitstop - but there is no evidence of that) - which is not far off what Alonso lost.

So - given that a couple of tenths a lap is important, how bright do you think it is to give up 5 to 7 seconds?

And saying "Alonso could've spun" is silly - the whole field could've spun - then Hamilton would've won... losing 5 to 7 seconds on a in lap in the hope that your rival might "spin" or stop for a chat and a coffee seems a dubious strategy...

[Kingshark]

He didn't look closer to Massa than Massa was to Vettel, so I don't think it would have made much of a difference.

That's easy to say, however;

Massa was getting DRS from Vettel, yet was unable to pass. Alonso was getting DRS from Massa, but since he too had DRS, it gave him no advantage.

Alonso was half a second quicker than Massa who was half a second quicker than Vettel.

I think he would've won, Alonso with DRS had the pace to pass the Red Bull without DRS.

Then again, Felipe defends like Gilles V. himself whenever he sees Fernando in his mirrors; and seemed to be more interested in beating Alonso rather than actually trying to pass Vettel.

Edited by Kingshark, 18 March 2013 - 18:51.

[ZZei]

That's easy to say, however;

Massa was getting DRS from Vettel, yet was unable to pass. Alonso was getting DRS from Massa, but since he too had DRS, it gave him no advantage.

Alonso was half a second quicker than Massa who was half a second quicker than Vettel.

I think he would've won, Alonso with DRS had the pace to pass the Red Bull without DRS.

Then again, Felipe defends like Gilles V. himself whenever he sees Fernando in his mirrors; and seemed to be more interested in beating Alonso rather than actually trying to pass Vettel.

Yeah, everytime Massa is ahead of Alonso, something odd must have happened, like Massa outqualifying Alonso. Who knows if Ferrari could have also pitted only twice, atleast in free practices they were pretty similar to lotus. Alonso was just too busy destroing his tires in the turbulant air of Massa.

[revlec]

HAM knew ALO was racing to win the race. Why not make him lose some precious time?
He's one of his WDC rivals after all... But I guess it's too difficult for some guys to understand.
_
An easy pass at that stage and ALO would have been closer to KIMI towards the end of the race.
HAM did the right thing and I don't know how he did to make that corner. Super braking..

Edited by revlec, 18 March 2013 - 19:33.

[Bruce]

HAM did the right thing and I don't know how he did to make that corner. Super braking..

Yeah - it was stunning the way he flat spotted his tyre and let Alonso by - wooooowheeee!

[revlec]

Yeah - it was stunning the way he flat spotted his tyre and let Alonso by - wooooowheeee!

You completely missed the point.. but eh.. (HAM was not fighting for the lead, and in the case you didn't watch the race, ALO was in front of HAM from the start, so he knew they were not fighting for the same position).
_
The only one with this kind of "I will give you a hard time" attitude was MSC. No wonder he is loved or hated.

[Bruce]

You completely missed the point.. but eh.. (HAM was not fighting for the lead, and in the case you didn't watch the race, ALO was in front of HAM from the start, so he knew they were not fighting for the same position).

My point exactly - so Hamilton would have known HE wasn't fighting for that position - but he was still willing to toss away 5 to 7 seconds for no good reason...

[Boxerevo]

My point exactly - so Hamilton would have known HE wasn't fighting for that position - but he was still willing to toss away 5 to 7 seconds for no good reason...

I don't get why are you so upset with this...so lets everybody race like Prost-mind so we can later say how smooth/smart/cool headed they are racing.

I don't want crash and stupid mistakes,but let the man do his job and get some fun of it.

[Moore]

He made the corner because Alonso waited with turn in. The kind of anticipation Hamilton wouldv given a win in Brasil last year.;)

Oh please. Did you even watch the Brazilian grand prix?

Hamilton left plenty of room for Hulkenberg to go up the inside but he lost it and slid straight into Hamilton, Hamilton also had to deal with the back marker in front.

[spacekid]

There was plenty of other racing in Melbourne. If this hadn't involved Hamilton and Alonso we wouldn't have 4 pages on it. Nice stuff all round, but I didn't think it was that remarkable.

[revlec]

He made the corner because Alonso waited with turn in. The kind of anticipation Hamilton wouldv given a win in Brasil last year.;)

Yes because if it was ALO it would have been different. Please watch the video again.

http://youtu.be/0e2-4Yobm8Q?t=11s

Edited by revlec, 18 March 2013 - 20:55.

[F1ultimate]

There was plenty of other racing in Melbourne. If this hadn't involved Hamilton and Alonso we wouldn't have 4 pages on it. Nice stuff all round, but I didn't think it was that remarkable.

I said that on the first page. It wasn't a remarkable battle. However, there is nothing that stimulates excitement and tension as much as a battle between those two. May the lord be with the forum's servers if the two of them collide this season.

[Buttoneer]

Please remember that the thread is to discuss Alonso's overtake on Hamilton at the 2013 Australian GP. Other events are informative but not the point of this discussion.

[ApexMouse]

Awesome driving by the pair of them. Super-late braking well off line, managing a lock up and still goes to the apex from Lewis.
Excellent awareness from Alonso to see the smoke and signs in his mirrors that lewis was in trouble, gave alot of space and then recovered, nailed the cut-back. I just wish these two would battle on track more often.

[yoyogetfunky]

Yes because if it was ALO it would have been different. Please watch the video again.

http://youtu.be/0e2-4Yobm8Q?t=11s

Youre right! Hamilton didnt move at all. I thought he turned left to pass the backmarker wich caught him in Hulkenbergs trajectory. My memory plays tricks on me. Nevermind my comment.

The Alonso/Hammy move is a case closed as far as im concerned. Bit of smoke, no drama, end of story.

[flatlander48]

My point exactly - so Hamilton would have known HE wasn't fighting for that position - but he was still willing to toss away 5 to 7 seconds for no good reason...

No, I think it can also work against you. I was not able to watch in video, but I do have an iPad app that shows full timing and scoring with sector times. At one point, Sutil was passed, by Hamilton i think. Almost immediately Sutil went to being 3 or 4 seconds down. I'm guessing that once you're been passed you're exiting the corner slower than normal. Also, you are likely to have more understeer as the car ahead is taking air off your front wing. Anyway, it does seem like it is very easy to lose time in that kind of situation.

[yoyogetfunky]

James Allen says the early 2nd stop of Lewis was because of the lock up with the Alonso fight. Is this true?

[Oho]

James Allen says the early 2nd stop of Lewis was because of the lock up with the Alonso fight. Is this true?

Well there are reports that the crew was already waiting for him on the pit lane when he locked up but then again to in the BBC post race interview/chat Hamilton suggested his stop was brought forward because of the lock up, so go figure.

[yoyogetfunky]

Well there are reports that the crew was already waiting for him on the pit lane when he locked up but then again to in the BBC post race interview/chat Hamilton suggested his stop was brought forward because of the lock up, so go figure.

Interesting. Thanks!

[F1ultimate]

A lovely photo of the battle:

[mnmracer]

A lovely photo of the battle:

Not taking away from the lovely photo it indeed is, that's qualifying (or FP3). Rain tires.

[Fontainebleau]

Not taking away from the lovely photo it indeed is, that's qualifying (or FP3). Rain tires.

Party spoiler!


;)

[ardbeg]

Well there are reports that the crew was already waiting for him on the pit lane when he locked up but then again to in the BBC post race interview/chat Hamilton suggested his stop was brought forward because of the lock up, so go figure.

Unless they have made it illegal - sending out the pit crew to pretend you will make a stop has been common tactics for long.
-"Fernando, Lewis will pit this lap you do not need to risk a pass"
- ...
-"He did not pit!"
-"Those... they fooled us!"
-"Will he pit next lap?"
-"Yes, pit crew went out again"

Edited by ardbeg, 20 March 2013 - 18:05.

[MP422]

Yeah - it was stunning the way he flat spotted his tyre and let Alonso by - wooooowheeee!

I dunno what's so funny, the radios transmission went something like Ham: "is alonso on a 3 stop ?" Bono: "yes he is Lewis but we still want to keep him behind" Ham: "That's not gonna happen... (something about DRS)" Just doing what he was told. But don't let reality get in the way or anything....

:32 seconds

[MP422]

Awesome driving by the pair of them. Super-late braking well off line, managing a lock up and still goes to the apex from Lewis.
Excellent awareness from Alonso to see the smoke and signs in his mirrors that lewis was in trouble, gave alot of space and then recovered, nailed the cut-back. I just wish these two would battle on track more often.

Yea it's so exciting and these too just have a nice mix of style and aggression when battling each other.... i love it.

[ApexMouse]

Unless they have made it illegal - sending out the pit crew to pretend you will make a stop has been common tactics for long.
-"Fernando, Lewis will pit this lap you do not need to risk a pass"
- ...
-"He did not pit!"
-"Those... they fooled us!"
-"Will he pit next lap?"
-"Yes, pit crew went out again"

Been illegal for years.

[Sennasational]

If that's the case - why defend so desperately on your in lap and cost yourself time? If you're coming in, lt's likely because your tyres are done. So- what do you achieve by an heroic defence of your position in this particular case? I can completely understand it if you're trying to undercut the guy trying to pass, or if it factors into the race strategy, but for the life of me, all I can see in this case is Hamilton slowing himself down by driving in his mirrors...

They're racing drivers. That's why. You don't win championships, or even races for that matter by letting people overtake you easily - ever.

He's paid to race, that's his job and both Alonso and Hamilton are pretty great employees in that regard. Good clean racing thanks to BOTH drivers' skill.

[crespo]

They're racing drivers. That's why. You don't win championships, or even races for that matter by letting people overtake you easily - ever.

He's paid to race, that's his job and both Alonso and Hamilton are pretty great employees in that regard. Good clean racing thanks to BOTH drivers' skill.

Agreed to an extent: I don't fully subscribe to the "they're racing drivers, must defend everything" mantra, but it's a good part of the reason for why I don't think it's fair or accurate to rag on Hamilton for defending so hard.

The other part of the reason is the aforementioned radio exchange, he had specific instructions to defend, and did so dutifully.

Besides, when was the last time you willingly saw Hamilton give up a spot? Part of what makes the Alonso/Hamilton battles so exciting is knowing both of them are relentless when trying to take or defend a place. Watching their run up the straight, I knew Hamilton would do everything in his power to try to keep his spot, even with his tires worn down. It's just how he's wired and I commend him for it.