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Should McLaren bring back the MP4-27? [split]


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#51 Wouter

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 22:05

So you think they should abandon all the resources and time they spent into a new philosophy which once they understand has long term potential?

Any long term potential seems very limited when high noses are apparently to be banned for 2014? That would limit "long term" to late 2013, and they may need that long to start improving the thing.

I think a switch ASAP to the 27(B) would be the best, combined with a shift in focus to 2014. I think this season is lost no matter what, but the -28 apparently has so many issues and things the engineers are scratching their heads about that I suspect it may be better to switch to -27 to obtain reasonable results and get drivers and team back in a comfort zone. Meanwhile, the design department can start early on 2014 instead of attempting to fix the -28 for most of the year, while doing only the minimal amount of updates on the old car.

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#52 pinkypants

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 22:07

They should just concentrate on making the 28 better - no need to bring the 27 back.

#53 muelte

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 23:06

Doesn't work like that, Last years Mercedes car was faster than this years car in Australia also by about 2 seconds.

Can't compare it.


That's simply wrong. Take a look at FP1, FP2 and fastest race laps, and you'll see that most cars are faster this year, including Mercedes, while McLaren is slower. FP3 and Qualy can't be taken into consideration as they were wet sessions.

#54 BigCHrome

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 23:20

I would stick with the -28 until the Barcelona upgrades. If at that point they are still nowhere then they might as well try the -27.

#55 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 23:24

It's not guarenteed to be the 28 is ****, they may have just gone majorly wrong adapting it to Melbourne. The 28 wasn't too bad in testing. If they do bring back the 27 and it beats the 28 out the box then whichever design team led the 28 project and/or calibrated/setup the car for Melbourne need sacking. Are McLaren still alternating design teams year by year? If so they really need to stop. The number of on/off years for McLaren is just embarrassing now. They are not a top team if they can't be a top team every year.

#56 Wouter

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 23:26

It's not guarenteed to be the 28 is ****, they may have just gone majorly wrong adapting it to Melbourne. The 28 wasn't too bad in testing.

Actually, it was very bad in testing, only the problems got masked, mostly by that run with very low ride. Button said they knew they were in trouble in Barcelona.

#57 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 23:29

Thanks Wouter. To be fair I didn't follow testing that closely this season but I remember the 28 topping a couple of the early tests. In that case revert to the latter part of my post.

#58 ElDictatore

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 00:36

Are McLaren still alternating design teams year by year?


No. I think it was the same since 09 or so.

I think something we have to see about the -28 that it already began development mid-season. Most likely when they had the big drop, so talking about the -28 being fastest in Brazil doesn't change anything, as they already decided to make high chassis with pull-rod.

More importantly, I want them to keep the -28. That they already admit that they don't understand the problem exactly and that the SIM isn't giving them the right results suggests that there is something fundamentally wrong.
So it's actually a case of getting on top of more problems than only the car (maybe similar to the wind tunnel problems at Ferrari). And I want to see that they get on top of this problem, especially for the next rule change. They have to think in the longterm now.

Edited by ElDictatore, 18 March 2013 - 00:37.


#59 yoyogetfunky

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 01:30

I think the problem with bringing back the 27 is that it disrupts the whole 28 programme. The 27 would need a dedicated team developing upgrades, testing them in the windtunnel, costing allocated time ofr the 28 and the 14 car. Then the 28 would need ateam wich probes the problems, tries to clear them in the simulator, build upgrades, test new things in the windtunnel, wich costs allocated time for the 27 and the 14 car. Its a vicious circle. I can understand the dilemma for McLaren. My guess is theyll see how the next 2 races go, see if they can get upgrades to adress the problems, and then make a decision to either stick with the 28 throughout, or bring back the 27 for the entire of 2013.

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#60 Seanspeed

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 02:34

They'd have to make a decision pretty quickly, I think. And they'd only do it if they're almost certain that they cant turn things around.

The MP4-27 would be months behind in development and it wouldn't receive updates for a while, either.

Completely depends on what the problem is with the car, which is something that nobody here knows. I dont want to say that its likely or not likely because of that, but whatever it is, going back to last year's car must be a last resort.

#61 George Costanza

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 02:45

MP4/8 was a fantastic chassis (and one of the most beautiful F1 cars ever too). If only Ron could wrestle better engines out of Ford... What could have been!

Posted Image


Right, back to present. MP4-28 is indeed not good, no arguing there.


I agree.... MP4-8 with better power, (Ford factory spec) Senna wins the Championship.... Who knows, Senna might have stayed...

Anyway, MP4-28 is huge mess, I think McLaren should have done what they did in 2003, run last year's car with a development track on it. Kimi nearly won the championship with it...

#62 yoyogetfunky

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 02:57

I agree.... MP4-8 with better power, (Ford factory spec) Senna wins the Championship.... Who knows, Senna might have stayed...

Anyway, MP4-28 is huge mess, I think McLaren should have done what they did in 2003, run last year's car with a development track on it. Kimi nearly won the championship with it...


Button is no Kimi though ;)

Wich brings up another point against bringing back the 27: the 28-ish results Button had with it. He didnt like that car. Brasil was ok, but Austin etc was bad to very bad. McLaren must hate these times.

#63 chumma

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 03:27

Yes. Definitely as soon as possible, most likely race is Bahrain at the earliest but, McLaren are quite stubborn.

#64 Reinmuster

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 04:44

If this was a repeat of 2004, then they just need to introduce B-spec (if there any) ASAP.




#65 kedia990

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 05:23

Sorry if this has been answered, but can someone list the changes required to MP4-27 to bring it fully compliant with 2013 regulations? Or any changes they'd HAVE to make before running it?

#66 muramasa

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 06:57


How come the car looked quite good in testings and now this. I didnt hear or see the car too stiff and jumping around in testings. :well:

Hopefully they'll sort it out soon.

#67 chumma

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 07:03

How come the car looked quite good in testings and now this. I didnt hear or see the car too stiff and jumping around in testings. :well:

Hopefully they'll sort it out soon.

Melbourne is quite bumpy, purpose built race tracks aren't so much.

#68 f1rules

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 07:41

I think the problem with bringing back the 27 is that it disrupts the whole 28 programme.


its disrupted already, if they really are as clueless as all the signals suggest, any 28 development is probably stopped, they need to know the problems before they can continue development

#69 chumma

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:09

Via Adam Cooper's blog: Interview with Whitmarsh, interesting bit involving 27.

Asked if reverting to the MP4-27 would be a serious option, he said: “It’s not a serious option for Malaysia! I think at the moment we’ve got to work hard on this car. We know it’s got some areas of high potential, and we know that it’s potentially got more downforce than last year’s car. I think there are other issues we’ve got to understand, and make sure it’s accessible.

Also said the Albert Park track played to all of McLaren's weakness's, so it made a bad situation look worse so to speak.

I think with a smoother surface, and longer corners, we might not look as bad in Malaysia.

Edited by chumma, 18 March 2013 - 08:11.


#70 Lights

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:18

This bit from that article worried me more

“We’ve all had cars in the past, or many of us have unfortunately, that are difficult to get the performance out of, extract it, even though some of the figures are quite impressive.



#71 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:39

Asked if reverting to the MP4-27 would be a serious option, [Whitmarsh] said: “It’s not a serious option for Malaysia! I think at the moment we’ve got to work hard on this car. We know it’s got some areas of high potential, and we know that it’s potentially got more downforce than last year’s car. I think there are other issues we’ve got to understand, and make sure it’s accessible.

http://adamcooperf1....-at-the-moment/


#72 WitnessX

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:55

This bit from that article worried me more

..and no doubt it would win the F1 WWTC (World Wind Tunnel Championship) 2013.

No seriously, it was really good in sector 1 (aero) in Barcelona. But the tighter the corners, the more they were losing out.

Edited by WitnessX, 18 March 2013 - 08:58.


#73 SealTheDiffuser

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 09:09

http://www.auto-moto...ck-6791149.html

#74 Dalton007

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 09:12

For the short term, I think Whitmarsh is right: try and fix this car. I think we'll be better at Malaysia and China. A top 6 finish is possible.

#75 SunnyENTP

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 09:13

Yes. Definitely as soon as possible, most likely race is Bahrain at the earliest but, McLaren are quite stubborn.



They will still struggle with 27 - remember it was Buttons worst car

#76 yoyogetfunky

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 09:19

its disrupted already, if they really are as clueless as all the signals suggest, any 28 development is probably stopped, they need to know the problems before they can continue development


I seriously doubt any 28 development is stopped. If anything theyd speed up development of some parts, and perhaps add some engineers from the '14 car project temporarily to get on top of understanding the problems. In these RRA-restricted times McLaren cant just develop 3 cars at the same time without hurting. Its gonna be a choice between either the 28 or the 27 imo.

http://adamcooperf1....-at-the-moment/


So they still believe in the end, the 28 should be better. Interesting. I wonder if they get Paddy Lowe back to have a look.

#77 Gene and Tonic

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 09:21

I think the only reason they will switch back to the MP4-27 is if it has greater potential/relevance to the 2014 car. From what everyone at McLaren has been saying, I doubt that that is the case - otherwise why go for the change in philosophy in the first place?

#78 Defected

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 09:27

They will still struggle with 27 - remember it was Buttons worst car


Yeah he is also struggling to understand the 28, which is a car "developed" to his liking. Give perez a brazil spec 27...


#79 Rinehart

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 09:29

I think a 27 with any upgrades from the 28 that can be carried over, on the new tyres would be pretty compelling. Championships are as much about scoring good points consistently as they are about blitzing the field occasionally.

I don't buy into this "higher development ceiling" on the 28 as anything they actually KNOW. If they knew what the maximum was that could be developed on the 27 or the 28, they would have done so! So its just a theory - they don't know what these developments are yet. It looks to me that the 28 has a fundamental issue with the floor or something like that. To get the rear to seal to the floor they're having to run it with a low ride hight at the rear (opposite of Red Bull) which is proving to be impossible to understand, run or fix at the moment. They're going to spend months doing that, before they can worry about catching and passing the would be performance of a developed 27 - and how many points would the 27 be on the board by then, because its not about being better off than the 27 for speed, but POINTS.

To win a championship you need to average 3rd place. Far better to race a decently competitive car that they understand, eliminate all of the gambling and operational spanner dropping and the consistency that would ensure would be a great baseline from which they can try to develop some additional performance. Lotus and Ferrari have just shown that a car that is light on its tyres is key and that was something the 27 was on top of in the 2nd half of the season.

No brainer.

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#80 yoyogetfunky

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 09:29

I think the only reason they will switch back to the MP4-27 is if it has greater potential/relevance to the 2014 car. From what everyone at McLaren has been saying, I doubt that that is the case - otherwise why go for the change in philosophy in the first place?


The 28 has a much higher nose than the 27. The '14 rules stipulate a much lower nose, so that would be an easy choice ;)

#81 Rinehart

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 09:37

I seriously doubt any 28 development is stopped. If anything theyd speed up development of some parts, and perhaps add some engineers from the '14 car project temporarily to get on top of understanding the problems. In these RRA-restricted times McLaren cant just develop 3 cars at the same time without hurting. Its gonna be a choice between either the 28 or the 27 imo.



So they still believe in the end, the 28 should be better. Interesting. I wonder if they get Paddy Lowe back to have a look.


Surely just a coincidence but Pat Fry goes to Ferrari and they built a problem car, Mike Coughlin to Williams and they built a problem car... on that basis can't wait for Paddy Lowe to get stuck in at Mercedes and lead them up the garden path...!!!

#82 Bloggsworth

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 09:41

No - They should get rid of whomever designed the current one, pass him on to another team so that they can ruin their chances....

#83 wingwalker

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 09:43

It seems early to ditch a car after 1st race of the season. If they do know they have a problem (and have known it for some time) but are still puzzle about where it lies, I think they should stick to the newer car till they'll be able to identify and evaluate how fixable it is. But if the problems are terminal and there are no foreseeable options of it being something other than a dog going back to the 2012 car might be the only option. And this is the key issue, knowing exactly what went wrong. People are saying they should bring new parts, but what if the new parts were designed with the same flaw which hit the already existing ones? Either way, I guess they will run two Mp4-28 in Malaysia even if brining a 27 for comparison is technically and legally possible (I'm not sure if this is doable on such a short notice), to get more data and try some things that might help.

Edited by wingwalker, 18 March 2013 - 09:45.


#84 Juan Kerr

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 09:46

First things first McLaren will never win a constructors championship ever again in their current incarnation unless they have a star driver, also with hardly any testing what do you expect?

#85 SkorbiF1

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 09:54

After their second pitstops, (Lap 24) Perez was 69,7 seconds behind the leader Räikkönen. 20,8 seconds behind Jenson. Everyone still had one pitstop to go.
Near the end (lap 54) Perez catched Jenson and Grosjean, and was 74,8 seconds behind Kimi.

Perez was A lot faster than Button in the latter part of the race (avg. 0,66 sec/lap)
Losing only avg of 0,17 sec/lap to Kimi.

Both drivers had a bad weekend (bar Perez in that 30 laps). Car isn't a rocket, but it isn't THAT bad.


(I think Kimi is at least 0,17 sec/lap faster than Perez in his first Mclaren race.)

Edited by SkorbiF1, 18 March 2013 - 09:57.


#86 chumma

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 09:57

Via Adam Cooper's blog: Interview with Whitmarsh, interesting bit involving 27.

Asked if reverting to the MP4-27 would be a serious option, he said: “It’s not a serious option for Malaysia! I think at the moment we’ve got to work hard on this car. We know it’s got some areas of high potential, and we know that it’s potentially got more downforce than last year’s car. I think there are other issues we’ve got to understand, and make sure it’s accessible.

Also said the Albert Park track played to all of McLaren's weakness's, so it made a bad situation look worse so to speak.

I think with a smoother surface, and longer corners, we might not look as bad in Malaysia.

#87 JRizzle86

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 09:59

Via Adam Cooper's blog: Interview with Whitmarsh, interesting bit involving 27.

Asked if reverting to the MP4-27 would be a serious option, he said: “It’s not a serious option for Malaysia! I think at the moment we’ve got to work hard on this car. We know it’s got some areas of high potential, and we know that it’s potentially got more downforce than last year’s car. I think there are other issues we’ve got to understand, and make sure it’s accessible.

Also said the Albert Park track played to all of McLaren's weakness's, so it made a bad situation look worse so to speak.

I think with a smoother surface, and longer corners, we might not look as bad in Malaysia.


To be honest as average as a the performance in Australia was, it is obvious the current setup is not optimised for street layouts and rough surfaces. Purpose built tracks like Malaysia should aid the cars performance but at the end of the day the team needs to get to grip with an effective setup process for the car and improve their understanding of how the car reacts to particular changes. I have seen much better performances from McLaren on opening races but at the same time i have seen much worse. You only have to go back to 09 to find one driver DSQ and another retired.

Edited by JRizzle86, 18 March 2013 - 10:04.


#88 yoyogetfunky

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 10:09

Via Adam Cooper's blog: Interview with Whitmarsh, interesting bit involving 27.

Asked if reverting to the MP4-27 would be a serious option, he said: “It’s not a serious option for Malaysia! I think at the moment we’ve got to work hard on this car. We know it’s got some areas of high potential, and we know that it’s potentially got more downforce than last year’s car. I think there are other issues we’ve got to understand, and make sure it’s accessible.

Also said the Albert Park track played to all of McLaren's weakness's, so it made a bad situation look worse so to speak.

I think with a smoother surface, and longer corners, we might not look as bad in Malaysia.


KnucklesAgain already posted this.

And Button was quoted before Melbourne that he thought theyd do well there, and would be worried if it was a race at Barcelona. He said yesterday McLaren should be extatic if theyd get 2 points at Malaysia, implying it is not only ride, but also and especially a downforce problem.

Edited by yoyogetfunky, 18 March 2013 - 10:10.


#89 chumma

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 10:16

Well, they hadn't really had to use the car on a bumpy surface yet, so the ride quality was probably a bit of unknown righto, I posted it in the other thread and figured I'd put it in here just incase. No biggie.

#90 ocp

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 10:19

Taking a broader view and realazing...

Car can't handle a few bumps?
On a familiar track?

They have no excuse.

#91 SkorbiF1

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 10:23

With the pace Perez had in the latter half of the race, they should have been fighting for a podium.

#92 toxicfusion

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 10:24

You watch the 28 will go great in Malaysia and China :lol:


The smooth tracks will probably help them no end, it'll be Monaco now before they have to deal with a bumpy track.




Edit: Over the past several years McLaren have tended to have stiff suspension at the front as part of their aero philosophy, perhaps the pull rod at the front this year has changed how that all works, resulting in the problems?

Edited by toxicfusion, 18 March 2013 - 10:26.


#93 keiichi

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 10:50

As some have already mentioned here, I find it very strange that Mclaren went to a completely new philosophy of design on the final year of these regulations, particularly when they had a rocketship last year. For me it was a big mistake.

That said, I don't think they should abandon the MP4-28. If they say it has that much potential, then they have to work hard and make it happen.

If they can't solve it by half of the season, then they might as well focus only in the 2014 car, and don't waste time with either the 28 or the 27.

#94 Markn93

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 10:52

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/106141 :cry:

Edited by Markn93, 18 March 2013 - 10:53.


#95 yoyogetfunky

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:15

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/106141 :cry:


What a suggestive headline. Hes not ruling out anything. He only said 'at the moment' they focus on the 28. That could all change in a few weeks time.

#96 wingwalker

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:33

What a suggestive headline. Hes not ruling out anything. He only said 'at the moment' they focus on the 28. That could all change in a few weeks time.




Yeah, it could have as well read "Mclaren admit that reverting to and old car might be an option post-Malaysia" given the quotes.

#97 Gene and Tonic

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:37

Also, I thought that the chassis had to be homologated before the season started? So would they have to require special dispensation to go back to the '27? Or would it be acceptable because last year's car was homologated last season?

#98 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:43

Also, I thought that the chassis had to be homologated before the season started? So would they have to require special dispensation to go back to the '27? Or would it be acceptable because last year's car was homologated last season?


Starting with 2012 they can introduce a new tub and get it homologated, they just have to redo the crash tests.

#99 Reinmuster

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:44

Sorry if this has been answered, but can someone list the changes required to MP4-27 to bring it fully compliant with 2013 regulations? Or any changes they'd HAVE to make before running it?


1-more stringent front wing deflection tests than 2012.
2-the increased minimum weight to accommodate the Pirellis new tyre.

others are more into sporting regs.




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#100 MortenF1

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:56

1-more stringent front wing deflection tests than 2012.
2-the increased minimum weight to accommodate the Pirellis new tyre.

others are more into sporting regs.


Ehm, it's very much possible to fit a '13-wing onto the old car.
The increased weight isn't something they have to "accommodate", it's the tires themselves weighing more.