Jump to content


Photo
* * * - - 2 votes

Should McLaren bring back the MP4-27? [split]


  • Please log in to reply
140 replies to this topic

#101 Seanspeed

Seanspeed
  • Member

  • 20,588 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 18 March 2013 - 12:03

With the pace Perez had in the latter half of the race, they should have been fighting for a podium.

Perez stopped later than a lot of people. Look at Button's last stint for how the car looks when on a more typical pitstop window. They finished pretty much exactly where they should have.

Advertisement

#102 maverick69

maverick69
  • Member

  • 5,975 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 18 March 2013 - 12:08

Ehm, it's very much possible to fit a '13-wing onto the old car.
The increased weight isn't something they have to "accommodate", it's the tires themselves weighing more.


They can also "beef up" the flexural characteristics of the older design pretty easily.

#103 chumma

chumma
  • Member

  • 1,305 posts
  • Joined: January 13

Posted 18 March 2013 - 12:11

Autosport uses misleading tile on their front page regarding last years car, took the interview from cooper then made it out as if they definitely wont go to the 27 he said "not for malaysia" and that was telling

#104 SkorbiF1

SkorbiF1
  • Member

  • 1,225 posts
  • Joined: December 04

Posted 18 March 2013 - 12:19

Perez stopped later than a lot of people. Look at Button's last stint for how the car looks when on a more typical pitstop window. They finished pretty much exactly where they should have.


Already wrote this before.
After their second pitstops, (Lap 24. Almost everyone had pitted within the last three laps, including Jenson and Perez) Perez was 20 sec behind Button. By the lap 54, Perez had already catched Button, 20 seconds in 30 laps! and in this time, his pace was comparable to the top cars (who had also made their stop in the 3 lap window before).

The pace is there, but this weekend, the drivers weren't

Edited by SkorbiF1, 18 March 2013 - 12:27.


#105 Fastcake

Fastcake
  • Member

  • 9,575 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 18 March 2013 - 12:59

I really don't think going back to the 27 will be this magic bullet that will save the season. The car hasn't been developed since November and will take some time for the engineers to go back and re-understand the car to start delivering upgrades. The other teams haven't stood still, and their cars will effectively have a three month head start on the -27, so I suspect McLaren will still be some way behind. They should stick with the -28.

#106 JRizzle86

JRizzle86
  • Member

  • 2,096 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 18 March 2013 - 13:19

With the pace Perez had in the latter half of the race, they should have been fighting for a podium.


That reinforces the fact the car is peaky in its performance, the performance is hidden by poor setup.

Edited by JRizzle86, 18 March 2013 - 13:20.


#107 BillBald

BillBald
  • Member

  • 5,751 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 18 March 2013 - 14:28

Already wrote this before.
After their second pitstops, (Lap 24. Almost everyone had pitted within the last three laps, including Jenson and Perez) Perez was 20 sec behind Button. By the lap 54, Perez had already catched Button, 20 seconds in 30 laps! and in this time, his pace was comparable to the top cars (who had also made their stop in the 3 lap window before).

The pace is there, but this weekend, the drivers weren't


The guys who were in the points were looking after their tyres, while Sergio had nothing to lose.

That said, it does seem that the 28 had comparatively better race performance than quali, which is slightly encouraging.

Jenson's slower pace was mainly due to being stuck behind Ricciardo for a number of laps, after that I think he was pacing himself to the cars immediately behind him, since he wasn't very confident the tyres would last.



#108 BillBald

BillBald
  • Member

  • 5,751 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 18 March 2013 - 15:15

I really don't think going back to the 27 will be this magic bullet that will save the season. The car hasn't been developed since November and will take some time for the engineers to go back and re-understand the car to start delivering upgrades. The other teams haven't stood still, and their cars will effectively have a three month head start on the -27, so I suspect McLaren will still be some way behind. They should stick with the -28.


If Gary Anderson is to be believed, the other teams have not made much progress since last year, so the 27 would probably be competitive.

The 28 might be much better on smoother racetracks, and where supersofts are not used, but do you want a car which doesn't work everywhere, when consistent results were shown to be so important last year?



#109 Gareth

Gareth
  • RC Forum Host

  • 16,921 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 18 March 2013 - 15:27

If Gary Anderson is to be believed, the other teams have not made much progress since last year

Potential really stupid question time: the 2013 tyres aren't identical to the 2012 tyres, are they? Also, weren't different compund brought to Melbourne for 2012 as for 2013 (along with temps being different etc)? So is the comparison really all that helpful?


#110 Seanspeed

Seanspeed
  • Member

  • 20,588 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 18 March 2013 - 15:41

Already wrote this before.
After their second pitstops, (Lap 24. Almost everyone had pitted within the last three laps, including Jenson and Perez) Perez was 20 sec behind Button. By the lap 54, Perez had already catched Button, 20 seconds in 30 laps! and in this time, his pace was comparable to the top cars (who had also made their stop in the 3 lap window before).

The pace is there, but this weekend, the drivers weren't

Perez was on a different strategy to everyone else(short-ish stints) and he also had the benefit of clear air for a nice while when his teammate(and the frontrunners at the time) were in traffic.

I can see where you're trying to find some optimism, but the pace really wasn't that good. You also cant look at the times and say the car has pace, but the drivers dont, as its the drivers putting in those times in the first place. If the car really did have pace, they would have finished higher. They may not be the best in the business, but they're still good drivers, Button especially.

#111 sblick

sblick
  • Member

  • 866 posts
  • Joined: September 01

Posted 18 March 2013 - 15:58

How do you test the 28 if you run the 27. The 28 has more potential. My optimism would be Ferrari of last year. McLaren will get to the front they always do

#112 rileyl

rileyl
  • Member

  • 462 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 18 March 2013 - 16:06

Already wrote this before.
After their second pitstops, (Lap 24. Almost everyone had pitted within the last three laps, including Jenson and Perez) Perez was 20 sec behind Button. By the lap 54, Perez had already catched Button, 20 seconds in 30 laps! and in this time, his pace was comparable to the top cars (who had also made their stop in the 3 lap window before).

The pace is there, but this weekend, the drivers weren't


Its pretty obvious the 28 is not the class of the field, but shouldn't be this bad. I think the team rely all on Button's input and have been mislead by Button's input. This 28 is supposed built to Button's liking, so if Button can't drive fast, the team would then be think that it must be all wrong with the car. We all knew Button's comment about the 27 when he was slow. Let say Canada 2012, Lewis won the race and Button a lap down; taken out Lewis, and imagine if Button was the lead driver date back. I don't think the engineers would find anything wrong with that car! McLaren is paying the price for that they do not have a driver who can extract the true pace from their car. Also, when Button is not performing, the team masked him by saying its a car problem. On the SP side, he is too new to the team and obviously Whitmarsh treats him as no.2 driver for Button. He didn't have much say regarding car set-up and direction.

Edited by rileyl, 18 March 2013 - 16:09.


#113 Defected

Defected
  • New Member

  • 5 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 18 March 2013 - 16:10

They may not be the best in the business, but they're still good drivers, Button especially.


I'm starting to have serious doubts about Button. He was leading the development of the car all winter, so basically the car is built around him. The problem seems to be that the car is OK to drive but it is slow.

IMO he is responsible to some extent for the development of the car, he should have noticed that there is something wrong way earlier and also he should have given better feedback to the team during testing.

Edited by Defected, 18 March 2013 - 16:11.


#114 Wouter

Wouter
  • Member

  • 5,778 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 18 March 2013 - 20:48

Which brings up another point against bringing back the 27: the 28-ish results Button had with it. He didnt like that car. Brasil was ok, but Austin etc was bad to very bad. McLaren must hate these times.

Button was very good in Austin 2012. Drove a very nice race from a bad position after the start (16th, due to loss of power in Q2 and a bad start in addition to that) to a strong 5th. If he had started at the front, he would likely have been close to the Vettel-Hamilton battle.

Button got on top of his issues with the -27 since about the German GP.


#115 Wouter

Wouter
  • Member

  • 5,778 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 18 March 2013 - 21:07

From what has been written recently in the MP4-28 thread (why was this one split again, as if a possible switch wouldn't be relevant to that thread!??), it seems that the -28 may suffer from over sensitive aero which theoretically gives more peak downforce than the -27 but which is also almost impossible to keep on a consistent, decent level from corner to corner and lap to lap.

It may be that the car loses downforce as soon as the car yaws just a little bit, which would necessitate an ultra-stiff setup that in turn causes the terrible ride and excessive tyre use.

If true, then this car is fundamentally flawed and the good-natured MP4-27, which doesn't seem to be near as sensitive, may well be by far the better car even without any development at all.

#116 BillBald

BillBald
  • Member

  • 5,751 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 18 March 2013 - 21:43

Potential really stupid question time: the 2013 tyres aren't identical to the 2012 tyres, are they? Also, weren't different compund brought to Melbourne for 2012 as for 2013 (along with temps being different etc)? So is the comparison really all that helpful?


The comparison is far from exact, but gives some indication. When they tried 2013 tyres on the 27 in Brazil, Jenson was very happy with them and very fast on them. Of course that was just one compound (the soft, I think), but it's hard not to conclude that the 27 would have been much more competitive than the 28.

McLaren themselves said that they would be more competitive in the early part of the season if they continued to develop the 27, and that was before Melbourne, ie before they realised just how bad the 28 would turn out to be.

They don't have infinite resources, they need to be working on 2014 car which can't use the same front end. If they can't sort out the 28 in the next couple of races it would be a bad decision IMO to continue with it.



#117 chumma

chumma
  • Member

  • 1,305 posts
  • Joined: January 13

Posted 18 March 2013 - 21:50

Perez was on a different strategy to everyone else(short-ish stints) and he also had the benefit of clear air for a nice while when his teammate(and the frontrunners at the time) were in traffic.

I can see where you're trying to find some optimism, but the pace really wasn't that good. You also cant look at the times and say the car has pace, but the drivers dont, as its the drivers putting in those times in the first place. If the car really did have pace, they would have finished higher. They may not be the best in the business, but they're still good drivers, Button especially.

From memory, Button didn't have any traffic all race, he had a car behind him but never infront unless he was lapping someone, he was in clear air too, so I don't think 'clear air' is the reason Sergio had a good stint. Then again, I was at the track, and don't really know when who stopped when so I don't know his stints but they were comparable to the rest weren't they? Also, Alonso was in clean air and driving hard to catch kimi, how did Sergio's lap times compare to Fernandos at the same time of the race?

#118 Mc_Silver

Mc_Silver
  • Member

  • 4,308 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 18 March 2013 - 21:59

From memory, Button didn't have any traffic all race, he had a car behind him but never infront unless he was lapping someone, he was in clear air too, so I don't think 'clear air' is the reason Sergio had a good stint. Then again, I was at the track, and don't really know when who stopped when so I don't know his stints but they were comparable to the rest weren't they? Also, Alonso was in clean air and driving hard to catch kimi, how did Sergio's lap times compare to Fernandos at the same time of the race?


I replayed live timing of the race and saw that Sergio picked up his pace considerably through the end of the race. He was 1 second quicker than Button and caught Button and Grosjean. His times were comparible with the front runners in that stint. Button had some ups and downs. It looks like his tyres grained a bit faster than Sergio's. The difference between Kimi and Romain showed how important set-up is really. He was almost going to be lapped from Kimi who was easily the quickest guy in the race. I think McLaren should analyse every bit of detail before deciding the car is flawed.

Edited by Mc_Silver, 18 March 2013 - 22:02.


#119 chumma

chumma
  • Member

  • 1,305 posts
  • Joined: January 13

Posted 18 March 2013 - 22:09

I replayed live timing of the race and saw that Sergio picked up his pace considerably through the end of the race. He was 1 second quicker than Button and caught Button and Grosjean. His times were comparible with the front runners in that stint. Button had some ups and downs. It looks like his tyres grained a bit faster than Sergio's. The difference between Kimi and Romain showed how important set-up is really. He was almost going to be lapped from Kimi who was easily the quickest guy in the race. I think McLaren should analyse every bit of detail before deciding the car is flawed.

which laps did Button and Sergio do their last stops on?

Advertisement

#120 r4mses

r4mses
  • Member

  • 1,357 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 18 March 2013 - 22:21

If they bring back the MP4-27, it's now (couple of next weeks) or never. I doubt they can pick up the 27's development in a few weeks where they left it in 2012, thinking they get a significant improvement over the 28 - and become competitive. If that was the case, something would be really wrong... not just a McLaren, but at RBR, Ferrari, Lotus and Mercedes, too.

#121 BillBald

BillBald
  • Member

  • 5,751 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 18 March 2013 - 22:31

From memory, Button didn't have any traffic all race, he had a car behind him but never infront unless he was lapping someone, he was in clear air too, so I don't think 'clear air' is the reason Sergio had a good stint. Then again, I was at the track, and don't really know when who stopped when so I don't know his stints but they were comparable to the rest weren't they? Also, Alonso was in clean air and driving hard to catch kimi, how did Sergio's lap times compare to Fernandos at the same time of the race?


Jenson was very close behind Ricciardo for about a dozen laps, and he was possibly quite lucky that Ricciardo retired. Jenson's problem was that Ricciardo would pit, sprint like hell on the new tyres and be back in front after Jenson pitted. Jenson couldn't respond because, following his stop on lap 4, Jenson was effectively running a 2-stop race, so looking after his tyres was paramount.

It seems as though the 28 maybe isn't too bad on medium tyres and a fairly-rubbered track. If Jenson hadn't run in Q3 and ruined his supersofts, he might have had a much better race.



#122 Rikhart

Rikhart
  • Member

  • 598 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 18 March 2013 - 22:35

I already said this elsewhere, I think it was a gigantic blunder to go revolutionary for a single season, with so much change coming in 2014, and development time on this years car will be done around mid season to focus on it.

#123 Reinmuster

Reinmuster
  • Member

  • 901 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 19 March 2013 - 05:06

I wonder if this just a case of wrong/not working aero spec, because remember that Jensen and McLaren are fastest during the very 1st day of pre-season testing in Jerez.

Why don't they revert to that spec in Jerez and starting working from that.




#124 mclarennut

mclarennut
  • Member

  • 480 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 19 March 2013 - 09:13

I wonder if this just a case of wrong/not working aero spec, because remember that Jensen and McLaren are fastest during the very 1st day of pre-season testing in Jerez.

Why don't they revert to that spec in Jerez and starting working from that.


This has been spoken about many times before:

McLaren’s impressive pace on the first day of testing in Jerez in February was generated by a mistake when the car was being put together in the factory, Martin Whitmarsh has confirmed to this blog.

A suspension component was fitted incorrectly to the new car – apparently it was simply the wrong way round – and the unexpectedly low ride height that resulted happened to work well at the Spanish track. Button set the pace that day, suggesting that the MP4-28 could be the car to beat.

However once the mistake was discovered that night, it was rectified, as the car could not be run in that state long term at other venue, especially with heavy fuel loads.

Since then the team has struggled to get close to that initial performance, leading rivals and other observers to wonder just why the McLaren had been so impressive out of the box.

On Friday in Australia Jenson Button pinpointed the issue by saying: “We had a set-up we didn’t think we had. It wasn’t one we could work with.”

A little investigation has revealed that it wasn’t simply a question of a miscalculation of settings, but a part being fitted wrongly.

“It was a part fitted incorrectly which caused us to run the car unrealistically low, that happened to play to the strengths of the car,” Whitmarsh confirmed when asked by this blog. “It wouldn’t work on a bumpy circuit like this. That’s why the car at the moment is too peaky in its performance, and that’s something we’ve got to resolve. It was a set-up which on many tracks was not realistic.”

Whitmarsh also noted that McLaren’s extreme problems on Friday in Australia were related to trying to run the in a low configuration once again


Edited by mclarennut, 19 March 2013 - 09:13.


#125 launchcontrol

launchcontrol
  • Member

  • 31 posts
  • Joined: March 13

Posted 19 March 2013 - 09:20

lol thats hilarious

#126 GlenP

GlenP
  • Member

  • 3,403 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 19 March 2013 - 11:30

I'm starting to have serious doubts about Button. He was leading the development of the car all winter, so basically the car is built around him. The problem seems to be that the car is OK to drive but it is slow.

IMO he is responsible to some extent for the development of the car, he should have noticed that there is something wrong way earlier and also he should have given better feedback to the team during testing.

This is wrong on so many levels I hardly know where to start. A little list of things you clearly don't know:

Drivers don't design cars, they give feedback.

Cars are designed on computer, in wind tunnels and using simulators - in all of those the car was reportedly very good.

On track
the discrepancies started to show - the driver's job is to understand those and provide feedback, at which Jenson Button is massively experienced and capable.

The drivers DID notice problems.

Your point is?

#127 Rinehart

Rinehart
  • Member

  • 13,676 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 19 March 2013 - 11:45

lol thats hilarious


But also it seems to reveal that the issue is related to the floor and the "sealing effect" - get it closer and the car sticks. If they can't fix this problem by running the car lower, they've got a lot of work to do to with the wings and floor to get the flow working. This is a major aero job by the sounds of it. :eek:

#128 maverick69

maverick69
  • Member

  • 5,975 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 19 March 2013 - 11:50

But also it seems to reveal that the issue is related to the floor and the "sealing effect" - get it closer and the car sticks. If they can't fix this problem by running the car lower, they've got a lot of work to do to with the wings and floor to get the flow working. This is a major aero job by the sounds of it. :eek:


Could well be.

Or it could be something as trivial as getting the front-wing endplates pointing in the right direction.......... Although McLaren wouldn't get something like that wrong........ would they?

#129 Absulute

Absulute
  • Member

  • 938 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 19 March 2013 - 11:52

For what it's worth, Scarbs doesn't think it's as simple as a front wing.

#130 yoyogetfunky

yoyogetfunky
  • Member

  • 856 posts
  • Joined: March 13

Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:02

For what it's worth, Scarbs doesn't think it's as simple as a front wing.


Did he elaborate on that?

#131 Absulute

Absulute
  • Member

  • 938 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:06

Did he elaborate on that?


No, I asked him on twitter what he thought the cause was...

I'm still puzzling over the cause, its not as simple as a bad front wing




#132 Defected

Defected
  • New Member

  • 5 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:22

This is wrong on so many levels I hardly know where to start. A little list of things you clearly don't know:

Drivers don't design cars, they give feedback.

Cars are designed on computer, in wind tunnels and using simulators - in all of those the car was reportedly very good.

On track
the discrepancies started to show - the driver's job is to understand those and provide feedback, at which Jenson Button is massively experienced and capable.

The drivers DID notice problems.

Your point is?


First of all, being ironic doesn't prove you're right. My opinion/point is pretty much the opposite of yours, that Button is not the best on the grid in terms of car understanding and development, which i believe was proven during the 2012 season (canada etc...), that's all :)

Edited by Defected, 19 March 2013 - 12:23.


#133 GlenP

GlenP
  • Member

  • 3,403 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:28

First of all, being ironic doesn't prove you're right. My opinion/point is pretty much the opposite of yours, that Button is not the best on the grid in terms of car understanding and development, which i believe was proven during the 2012 season (canada etc...), that's all :)

There is no irony in my post.

Button could be the worst development driver in the history of F1, and there still would not be time to correct the car between Barcelona and now. They do not test the car "all winter" as you said.

My point was not ironic - my point is that I don't think you understand how car development works.

#134 MikeV1987

MikeV1987
  • Member

  • 6,103 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:34

I don't know why they just didn't evolve the 27' for this year in the first place, it make absolutely no sense to me to build a whole new car when the regulations barely change. It's not like they were midfielders or anything in 2012 either, they were the fastest for most of the season. Whoever made that call must be worried about their job. :eek:

#135 F1ultimate

F1ultimate
  • Member

  • 2,991 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:36

I don't know why they just didn't evolve the 27' for this year in the first place

Perhaps its performance potential was near maxed out?

#136 Defected

Defected
  • New Member

  • 5 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:39

There is no irony in my post.

Button could be the worst development driver in the history of F1, and there still would not be time to correct the car between Barcelona and now. They do not test the car "all winter" as you said.

My point was not ironic - my point is that I don't think you understand how car development works.


I said he was leading the development all winter, which is true as hamilton didn't have access on the 2013 car..., i didn't say they "test" the car all winter. So wether the development is on track or in the simulator or anything other, Button as any other driver would, has influence on the development of the car.

Edited by Defected, 19 March 2013 - 12:40.


#137 One

One
  • Member

  • 6,527 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:48

Don't we think that MP4-26 and coanda can be a great combination?

Ithas got great stream to the rear in the center that will help maintain the exhaust flow towards where it should be to seal the diffuser?

#138 GlenP

GlenP
  • Member

  • 3,403 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 19 March 2013 - 13:02

I said he was leading the development all winter, which is true as hamilton didn't have access on the 2013 car..., i didn't say they "test" the car all winter. So wether the development is on track or in the simulator or anything other, Button as any other driver would, has influence on the development of the car.

There was nothing wrong with the car in the simulator or in the wind tunnel, but the actual physical car doesn't behave the same. I guess that's Button's fault?

#139 Force Ten

Force Ten
  • Member

  • 4,100 posts
  • Joined: April 99

Posted 19 March 2013 - 13:47

There was nothing wrong with the car in the simulator or in the wind tunnel, but the actual physical car doesn't behave the same. I guess that's Button's fault?

Why not? Everything else is.

Advertisement

#140 WitnessX

WitnessX
  • Member

  • 1,646 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 19 March 2013 - 15:49

First of all, being ironic doesn't prove you're right. My opinion/point is pretty much the opposite of yours, that Button is not the best on the grid in terms of car understanding and development, which i believe was proven during the 2012 season (canada etc...), that's all :)

... 106...
this was my answer..
http://forums.autosp...p;#entry6177069

This was the "are the drivers to blame" thread - Not surprisingly the thread was closed. You missed your chance.
Link: MP4-28 is not bad, the drivers are [split]

If you wish to have it re-opened I believe the way is to PM the moderators

Edited by WitnessX, 19 March 2013 - 15:50.


#141 ElDictatore

ElDictatore
  • Member

  • 1,142 posts
  • Joined: January 12

Posted 21 March 2013 - 08:08

I don't know why they just didn't evolve the 27' for this year in the first place, it make absolutely no sense to me to build a whole new car when the regulations barely change. It's not like they were midfielders or anything in 2012 either, they were the fastest for most of the season. Whoever made that call must be worried about their job. :eek:



Well they begin development mid-season. Maybe when they got that mid-season dump, they thought it might be a good idea to make something new (especially after they had the forced change of the splitter after the china gp which made some problems).

Edited by ElDictatore, 21 March 2013 - 08:10.