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Perez: Ferrari often asked me to take care of Alonso


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#101 Mackey

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 21:22

Nope.

Be careful with = Tener cuidado con
Take care of = Cuidar de


Nope. What you say is correct in spanish as spoken in Spain... but Perez is mexican.
I have been working with mexican people for a long time and have heard that expression multiple times. And I´m 100% sure what he means is "Be careful with Alonso".
I know what I say doesn´t fit some people´s agendas and I will be ignored, but it is what it is.


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#102 ZooL

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 21:28

Perez is not the first driver that has said this about Ferrari and won't be the last as Ferrari have previous form for this.
Can't remember the names nowdays, getting old. Fontana I think was one of the names - went public with the 'secret' too.

Pretty obvious RBR is just as bad with STR in doing the same thing.

Edited by ZooL, 19 March 2013 - 21:29.


#103 Skinnyguy

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 21:28

Nope. What you say is correct in spanish as spoken in Spain... but Perez is mexican.


Listen mate, I´m Galician, a source of emigrants to South America in the past and I have different familiars having lived for decades in Uruguay, Argentina, and Mexico. They all agree that "cuidar de" is exactly the same as here. And I´m perfectly aware of the differences between the different types of Spanish... like the verb "coger" (those who know both Castellano and Latino Spanish will know what I´m talking about :lol: )

#104 Bruce

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 21:37

So basically when Kingshark was complaing about Toro Rossos giving Red Bull white glove treatment, and we all said Sauber did the same... we were right.

With a lot of people saying "How dare people be annoyed about this etc it's the same as what TR do for RBR" that's not the point. It's more the fact how annoyed those same people act when TR do it.


I see your point, but I would argue that in popular perception, Ferrari is more likely to be "hammered" over this sort of implication. There is, of course a reason for this. If you go back far enough, Ferrari's treatment of it's own drivers and the way that it operated within the sport was beyond merely Machiavellian - I'm referring to the days when Enzo was most fully involved in the 50s and 60s... and of course there have been more recent examples, some that I have ranted at (Rubens having to pull over for MS in Austria) or that I have seen as "fair play" (Move over felipé...) - makes me look a hypocrite, I know - but that is not the point.

The point is that this history means that any "controversy" surrounding Ferrari is going to be subject to greater scrutiny than is likely for other teams - especially a "new" team (relatively) such as Red Bull (or Lotus [version 2.0] , or Force India etc.).

I remember that during the malaysian race last year the sky broadcaster (Croft?) began darkly suggesting "team orders" as soon as Sauber told him to "be careful". I thought that was a little much, given that we see Toro Rosso's jump out of the way of Red Bulls with no complaint or mention, but I can understand it.

We are all going to be "annoyed" when one of the teams we like is accused of "wrong-doing" especially when the accusations could be conceived to be slightly "political" - and the quickest way to react to that annoyance is to say "oh yeah? Well it's not as if the team YOU like is pure as the driven snow....!" - which is likely true too...

What I'm trying to say is, there is a reason it's called the "piranha club"...




#105 Fontainebleau

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 21:43

Pointing out where someone is wrong, or making things up, seems like an appropriate reaction to me (not a Ferrari / Alonso fan btw).

+1 RossanaG, you were blatantly mistranslating the article. I'd say you being called on making things up is not an overreaction.

#106 Skinnyguy

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 21:44

I see your point, but I would argue that in popular perception, Ferrari is more likely to be "hammered" over this sort of implication.


Totally true when I started watching the sport. True too overall along my years of F1, Ferrari is the team getting more stick for anything, surely because of what you say: the past. Not true for the present, RB gets more stick.

Why? I don´t know, but surely because they´re winning. The kind of victimism from Ferrari fanbase towards RB (asking for constant clarifications, protesting, seeing RB as FIA protegees, moaning about their cars...) reminds me of early 2000´s McLaren fanbase "a silver car is more likely to be penalized than a red one" attitude.

#107 Mackey

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 21:45

Listen mate, I´m Galician, a source of emigrants to South America in the past and I have different familiars having lived for decades in Uruguay, Argentina, and Mexico. They all agree that "cuidar de" is exactly the same as here. And I´m perfectly aware of the differences between the different types of Spanish... like the verb "coger" (those who know both Castellano and Latino Spanish will know what I´m talking about :lol: )


From Diccionario del español de México

cuidar
v tr (Se conjuga como amar)

1 Atender, proteger o vigilar algo o a alguien: "Te cuidas", cuidar una casa, cuidar a un enfermo, cuidar a un niño

2 Poner atención o interés en la realización de algo: cuidar la ortografía, cuidar la redacción.


To pay attention when carrying out an action

Pretty clear he was using the second meaning, but as I said, everyone has his own agenda...


#108 Fontainebleau

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 21:45

Listen mate, I´m Galician, a source of emigrants to South America in the past and I have different familiars having lived for decades in Uruguay, Argentina, and Mexico. They all agree that "cuidar de" is exactly the same as here. And I´m perfectly aware of the differences between the different types of Spanish... like the verb "coger" (those who know both Castellano and Latino Spanish will know what I´m talking about :lol: )

Then you will know that there isn't such a thing as "Latino Spanish", but certain uses that are very specific to certain regions. For example, the verb "coger" has a ver specific meaning that only applies in Argentina and Uruguay.

#109 Skinnyguy

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 21:47

From Diccionario del español de México



To pay attention when carrying out an action

Pretty clear he was using the second meaning, but as I said, everyone has his own agenda...


It´s so funny when people clueless about Spanish tries to play experts :lol: The second meaning needs doesn´t have a "de" alongside, the first one does :wave:

I.e:

"Cuida de tus compañeros"
"Cuida tu vocabulario"

#110 Fontainebleau

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 21:52

It´s so funny when people clueless about Spanish tries to play experts :lol: The second meaning needs doesn´t have a "de" alongside, the first one does :wave:

I.e:

"Cuida de tus compañeros"
"Cuida tu vocabulario"

It is not that funny when people come back calling others clueless about something and stating an opinion as a fact:

"Cuídate de los idus de Marzo" (official translation from Shakespeare's Julio Cesar "beware of the ides of March").

Edited by Fontainebleau, 19 March 2013 - 21:55.


#111 Gag Bueno

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 21:53

Get off your high horse, will you?


Could you write it bigger, please? People are being told to go back to school (but not in Mexico :rotfl:) here...


And again, everybody but Hanzo is turning a blind eye to this revealing bit "I don't know if they asked just me or the whole grid". What could Ferrari have asked to the whole grid: to let Alonso through, or to take care not to crash into him.


What Perez knew and has happened, the invitation to 'take care', shouldn't interest Hanzo nor anybody, but what he doesn't know ( and sounds a little like 'couldn't care less...) is so important that you feel the need to 'oversize' it a bit. Interesting...




#112 Skinnyguy

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 21:53

Then you will know that there isn't such a thing as "Latino Spanish", but certain uses that are very specific to certain regions. For example, the verb "coger" has a ver specific meaning that only applies in Argentina and Uruguay.


Of course I´m aware there´s not. Just like there´s not one Castellano. We don´t usually ask for "helaos", or eat plural esses in the north. Closest thing to that "Latino" is the "neutral" language used to tranlate North American TV productions for all the South American continent, like The Simpsons translation, which is the same for all continent.


#113 ZooL

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 21:55

Nine years after the World Championship showdown at Jerez in 1997, the then Sauber driver Norberto Fontana has decided to tell the story of what happened to him during that highly-charged weekend. In an interview with the Argentine magazine Ol?, Fontana claims that three or four hours before the race Jean Todt visited the Sauber motorhome and told the Swiss team, which used Ferrari engines at the time, that the Saubers must block Jacques Villeneuve if they were in a position to do so in order to help Michael Schumacher win the World Championship.

Fontana said that he blocked Villeneuve for only three or four corners but that it cost the French-Canadian around three seconds. In the end Villeneuve challenged Schumacher for the lead and the two cars collided. Schumacher went off into a gravel trap and was unable to rejoin. Villeneuve won the World Championship and Michael Schumacher was later punished for deliberately driving Villeneuve off the track.

Fontana said that the action had hurt his career but that Todt and Schumacher never thanked him for what he had done.

So Perez is probably right, it is highly probably Ferrari have asked other Sauber drivers to do the same thing, even Kobayashi.

Edited by ZooL, 19 March 2013 - 21:55.


#114 Mackey

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 21:57

It even funnier when people come back calling others clueless about something and stating an opinion as a fact:

"Cuídate de los idus de Marzo" (official translation from Shakespeare's Julio Cesar "beware of the ides of March").


Thanks mate :clap:

As I said, there are some people with an agenda, and they won´t accept the facts that go against it.

#115 Skinnyguy

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 21:57

It even funnier when people come back calling others clueless about something and stating an opinion as a fact:

"Cuídate de los idus de Marzo" (official translation from Shakespeare's Julio Cesar "beware of the ides of March").


You´re just as lost as the other guy.

You´ve made two mistakes in such a short post. First of all "Cuidar" as "Poner especial cuidado en" (second meaning in that dictionary entry) is followed by an activity or aspect you must keep in mind, not by a thing. Also "cuidate de" is different to "cuida de". First one means "protect yourself from", second one means "take care of". ·Cuidate de tu hermano" has nothing to do with "cuida de tu hermano". In F1 jergon, so you get it, you need to "cuidarte de" Maldonado or Grosjean, but you need to "cuidar" your teammate.

"Cuidate de los idus de marzo" means "protect yourself from the idus of March", not "put special attention on the idus of March", which was the second entry on the dictionary the other guy posted, the one that doesn´t ever need a "de" following the verb cuidar. Like "cuida tu vestuario". When cuidar means "poner especial atención en" is always followed by the thing you must pay attention to, without a "de". "Cuida tus maneras", instead of "cuida de tus maneras".

I´m going to ask my money for these lessons. :well:

Edited by Skinnyguy, 19 March 2013 - 22:07.


#116 bourbon

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 21:58

Sorry but you are the one how is making his own interpretation of Checo's words.


No I didn't. He interpreted himself.

To begin with and according to you "take care=assist=allow him to pass", that is your intepretation not what Checo said, even if we think the expression "take care of Alonso" is right, it's pretty ambiguous and open to interpretation. And Checo never said anything about:


So how else are you going to interpret it? Even the lightest interpretation (don't crash into Alonso) is still asking him to do something special around Alonso - so it is a lose - lose argument.

That's something you made up to support your argument. He said: "Al único que se lo pondría un poco más fácil sería a mi compañero si eso nos diera un gran resultado en un fin de semana." "make it easy" not "assist".


I agree, make it a little easier - but that is as if to say this: "I won't make it a little easier for Alonso, which is what Ferrari asked me to do, I will make it a little easier only for my teammate if it will give us a great result on the weekend."

Otherwise, his example makes no sense at all. Why bring it up if not to contrast what Ferrari asked him to do?

I give up, my explanation it's there, everyone is free to believe what they want or keep with their agendas.


Never give up.


#117 Fontainebleau

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 22:05

Of course I´m aware there´s not. Just like there´s not one Castellano. We don´t usually ask for "helaos", or eat plural esses in the north. Closest thing to that "Latino" is the "neutral" language used to tranlate North American TV productions for all the South American continent, like The Simpsons translation, which is the same for all continent.

I am not going to turn this into a language analysis, and hence I will stop the discussion here; but the "neutral" language used for such translations again has nothing to do with a "Latino" language, and does not mirror the ways of using Spanish in each one of the different countries. It is simply an "standard" used by the US TV industry, which can of course be (sort of fully) understood by any Spanish speaker and which is not modified from country to country because it is cheaper not to do so.

And by the way, limiting language differences between the north and the south of Spain to "helaos" or plural esses is simplistic to the extreme: words like guita, cambembo, camballá or girocho are far more defining of the type of variety that exists, and I dare to say that many of the northern Spaniards would be at a loss when listening to those.

#118 Skinnyguy

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 22:10

I am not going to turn this into a language analysis, and hence I will stop the discussion here; but the "neutral" language used for such translations again has nothing to do with a "Latino" language, and does not mirror the ways of using Spanish in each one of the different countries. It is simply an "standard" used by the US TV industry, which can of course be (sort of fully) understood by any Spanish speaker and which is not modified from country to country because it is cheaper not to do so.


I know. It doesn´t have any practial use. It´s not used anywhere, it´s a mixture of lots of different kinds of Spanish so it can be understoo by anyone.

And by the way, limiting language differences between the north and the south of Spain to "helaos" or plural esses is simplistic to the extreme: words like guita, cambembo, camballá or girocho are far more defining of the type of variety that exists, and I dare to say that many of the northern Spaniards would be at a loss when listening to those.


I´m sure that your Spanish comprehension is good enough to read again and realize I´m not limiting the difference to those I mentioned anywhere, but just mentioning some of them.

Edited by Skinnyguy, 19 March 2013 - 22:14.


#119 discover23

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 22:11

Nope. What you say is correct in spanish as spoken in Spain... but Perez is mexican.
I have been working with mexican people for a long time and have heard that expression multiple times. And I´m 100% sure what he means is "Be careful with Alonso".
I know what I say doesn´t fit some people´s agendas and I will be ignored, but it is what it is.

it could be either or.. I see what you are saying but the context is what gives it away.. "A mí me da igual si es Vettel o Alonso. Al único que se lo pondría un poco más fácil sería a mi compañero si eso nos diera un gran resultado en un fin de semana" .....

This is what he says immediately following that sentence. . the bold part: The only one who I would make it easy for would be my teammate...

That right there makes is obviously clear that he is referring to making life easy for Alonso.. I am not surprised.. Ferrari did this with Sauber in 03 when Montoya was racing against MS in Monza.. In that case back then, it was actually telling the Sauber drivers to interfere/block Montoya..

Redbull has the same policy with TR as we've seen their drivers move away for Vettel.

I just wonder who from Ferrari makes those calls.. In my opinion, it is LdM and not Domenicalli or the newer guys.

Edited by discover23, 19 March 2013 - 22:24.


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#120 Hanzo

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 22:13

What Perez knew and has happened, the invitation to 'take care', shouldn't interest Hanzo nor anybody, but what he doesn't know ( and sounds a little like 'couldn't care less...) is so important that you feel the need to 'oversize' it a bit. Interesting...



Nearly as interesting as you ignoring Pérez mentioning he only would do that for a team mate. Implying he never let Alonso pass.

Edited by Hanzo, 19 March 2013 - 22:16.


#121 Gag Bueno

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 22:20

Nearly as interesting as you ignoring Pérez mentioning he only would do that for a team mate. Implying he never let Alonso pass.


Huh?

But since Perez himself said he wouldn't "take care" and also never did, to me all seems more a curiosity, and also funny that Massa wasn't included in the "care package"...


Y cuidense todos...

Edited by Gag Bueno, 19 March 2013 - 22:23.


#122 e34

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 22:27

Could you write it bigger, please? People are being told to go back to school (but not in Mexico :rotfl:) here...




What Perez knew and has happened, the invitation to 'take care', shouldn't interest Hanzo nor anybody, but what he doesn't know ( and sounds a little like 'couldn't care less...) is so important that you feel the need to 'oversize' it a bit. Interesting...


Nice strawman, but no cigar. What Perez knew, and said, is of interest to everybody taking part in this thread. Go find where do I say "that is irrelevant". I have said at least three times that Perez should be asked what did he mean. I don't know if that in your world means "Do not take attention to what he said", but in mine clearly doesn't.

In fact, what we were discussing here before you appeared with your "funny thing that a Mexican speak Mexican" (of course, and we as Spaniards are trying to find out what he meant), and the other Argentinian remark (as if we were belittling them, and please specify were any of us has implied that either Mexican or Argentinian way of speaking is lesser, worse or any other thing appart from different from the one used in Spain) is what Perez meant with his words.

And if he meant "I was asked often to move over for Alonso", followed by "I don't know if they just asked me, or the whole grid" the implication is that whatever being asked was not seriously asked, because

a) it was not put into practice
b) Ferrari asking other teams (even if we concede that Sauber is like Toro Rosso) to move over for Alonso is just ridiculous.

So no, what I meant is that we should be interested in everything Perez said, and not only in the bits that suit our agenda. Like falsely portraying a discussion about the meaning of a Spanish word as used by a Mexican speaker as an implication that he is not entitled to his own way of speaking. Of course a Mexican speaks Mexican. And we, respectfully, trying to find what he meant, are not implying anything untowardly about it.

#123 Skinnyguy

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 22:28

Y cuidense todos...


Vale compadre. Todos nos cuidaremos, pero a la vez yo me cuidaré de todos ellos también. :lol:

Alright, time to stop. This is looking like a soap opera :smoking: . I promise to stop the off topic before I get 3 a weeks "baneo".



#124 Slartibartfast

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 22:30

Is it to be expected that a guy in the Ferrari drivers academy is told, when in touch with Ferrari, that they'd like him not to crash one of their cars out? I'd say yes, what would you say?

I would say no. I don't think that a driver at F1 standard needs to be told not to crash into other cars. He certainly wouldn't need telling often, and wouldn't need to be told not to crash into one specific car.
As boldhakka says in the quote below:

Actually, it should be obvious for a driver in the Ferrari drivers academy to be careful not to crash into any car, let alone a red one. Both Ferrari and Perez know this (that it is obvious, and doesn't need to be discussed). So, the request had to have had a little more meaning than to simply suggest avoiding crashing into Alonso's car.

Perhaps something in between the two extremes you discuss?


Nearly as interesting as you ignoring Pérez mentioning he only would do that for a team mate. Implying he never let Alonso pass.

...but that he had been asked to do so.

#125 Fontainebleau

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 22:34

You´re just as lost as the other guy.

You´ve made two mistakes in such a short post. First of all "Cuidar" as "Poner especial cuidado en" (second meaning in that dictionary entry) is followed by an activity or aspect you must keep in mind, not by a thing. Also "cuidate de" is different to "cuida de". First one means "protect yourself from", second one means "take care of". ·Cuidate de tu hermano" has nothing to do with "cuida de tu hermano". In F1 jergon, so you get it, you need to "cuidarte de" Maldonado or Grosjean, but you need to "cuidar" your teammate.

"Cuidate de los idus de marzo" means "protect yourself from the idus of March", not "put special attention on the idus of March", which was the second entry on the dictionary the other guy posted, the one that doesn´t ever need a "de" following the verb cuidar. Like "cuida tu vestuario". When cuidar means "poner especial atención en" is always followed by the thing you must pay attention to, without a "de". "Cuida tus maneras", instead of "cuida de tus maneras".

I´m going to ask my money for these lessons. :well:

"Lessons"? I'd say that is a tad arrogant. Instead of personally attacking others and accusing them of "being clueless" about Spanish, you would be far more effective if you could provide some authorised source for the rules that you are explaining and that, for all we know till now, you are making up. Because until now, you have been provided with the entry of the Diccionario del Español de México and the official translation of Shakespeare, and both have contradicted the rules you had posted until then.

Here you have another entry, that again contradicts what you wrote above:

http://es.thefreedictionary.com/cuidar
cuidar
tr. Poner diligencia y atención [en la ejecución de una cosa].
Asistir.
Guardar, conservar; seguido de la prep. de, como intr.: c. de la hacienda, de los niños.
prnl. Seguido de la prep. de, vivir con advertencia respecto a una cosa.
Preocuparse de su salud.

Diccionario Enciclopédico Vox 1. © 2009 Larousse Editorial, S.L.

Edited by Fontainebleau, 19 March 2013 - 22:42.


#126 Hanzo

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 22:39

Huh?



ha



...but that he had been asked to do so.



Of course. He is saying that. But it is funny how people ignore him saying that he only would do it for a team mate. Because that quote rules out him letting Alonso pass(or not attacking him) at Malaysia last year, or acting like Toro Rosso drivers do.

But forget about those small and revealing details, let's discuss about translation and semantics for another 100 messages :lol:

Edited by Hanzo, 19 March 2013 - 22:42.


#127 Slartibartfast

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 22:47

ha






Of course. He is saying that. But it is funny how people ignore him saying that he only would do it for a team mate. Because that quote rules out him letting Alonso pass(or not attacking him) at Malaysia last year, or acting like Toro Rosso drivers do.

But forget about those small and revealing details, let's discuss about translation and semantics for another 100 messages :lol:

That depends on your perception of the issue. I think the issue is whether Ferrari tried to influence another team to benefit one of their drivers, not whether another team actually did so.

#128 Claudius

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 22:56

ha






Of course. He is saying that. But it is funny how people ignore him saying that he only would do it for a team mate. Because that quote rules out him letting Alonso pass(or not attacking him) at Malaysia last year, or acting like Toro Rosso drivers do.


But forget about those small and revealing details, let's discuss about translation and semantics for another 100 messages :lol:


Yeah, but it isn't from lack of trying from Ferraris side.
That Checo didn't do it is another matter.

Personally, I dislike what both RB and Ferrari are trying to do. I think FIA and race control should keep a close look at that.


The real question is if McLaren will help Mercedes if being asked by Mercedes (now that it seems McLaren have a dog and Merc might be fighting for some wins...)



#129 Coops3

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 23:00

I'm sure the Toro Rosso camp are asked to take care of Vettel and Webber. So why not?


Because it's not fair on:

McLaren
Lotus
Mercedes
Force India
Williams
Caterham
Marussia

Honestly, the complete apathy to any notion of fairness from some of you astonishes me.

Edited by Coops3, 19 March 2013 - 23:01.


#130 Hanzo

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 00:05

Yeah, but it isn't from lack of trying from Ferraris side.
That Checo didn't do it is another matter.

Personally, I dislike what both RB and Ferrari are trying to do. I think FIA and race control should keep a close look at that.


The real question is if McLaren will help Mercedes if being asked by Mercedes (now that it seems McLaren have a dog and Merc might be fighting for some wins...)


Well, I am not sure if that is the real question... at least in this thread. But I agree with the rest of your post. I think it is not fair.
But people here claimed that the article was gone, that the answer backfired to the journalist, etc... those things are simply not true. In fact, that answer, the one that "backfired" to the interviewer, is the headline of the article.
Why? Because most of the people, the journo included, understood what it meant, to "be careful" with, and not "help him".






Posted Image[/URL]



It amazes me how people still think that Pérez said that in a negative or ilegal way against Ferrari, or that the answer backfired to the journalist so much that it made the headline.
Anyway I answered way too many times in this thread, there is one thousand reasons to criticise or dislike Ferrari, I don't see the point to exaggerate or lie about this particular interview.








#131 RealRacing

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 01:01

Interesting thread. Another native Spanish speaker here. I think it would be helpful to listen to the audio in order to hear Perez's tone in that part as it might tell a lot. In any case, without access to that, I'll put in my 5c and try to interpret this.

I think it is important to see the context first: SP was a former Ferrari academy driver that was supposedly being groomed to go to Ferrari but in the end didn't. Instead he ended up going to McLaren, Ferrari's biggest rivals. And he's no longer at Sauber. So, basically, he has no more compromises with Ferrari, which, one would guess, allow him to speak more freely.

Secondly, if you look at the rest of the questions, this is kind of a harsh interview, especially the one about his Slim backing:

"¿No le molesta que haya gente que piense que está en McLaren precisamente por ese apoyo?"

"Doesn't it bother you that there are people that think that you are at McLaren precisely because of this support (The slim family via Telmex)?"

And then comes the question we are talking about here, but people have missed the last part, which is also interesting:

"Hablando de Fernando, ¿cree que los pilotos tienen una actitud distinta si le ven a él por el retrovisor que si ven a Vettel? Me refiero a la remontada de Abu Dabi, cuando al alemán muchos casi se le apartaban."

"Speaking of Fernando, do you think drivers have a different attitude if they see him in their rear view mirror than if they see Vettel? I am referring to the come-back of Abu Dabi, when many almost moved away from the German."

"Debería preguntar uno a uno. En mi caso no es así, yo no hago distinciones entre ambos. El año pasado, cuando yo tenía comunicación con Ferrari, ellos me pedían a menudo que cuidara de Alonso, pero no sé si se lo piden a toda la parrilla o no. A mí me da igual si es Vettel o Alonso. Al único que se lo pondría un poco más fácil sería a mi compañero si eso nos diera un gran resultado en un fin de semana."

"You should ask one by one. In my case it isn't so, I make no distinctions between both. Last year, when I had communication with Ferrari, they often asked me to take care of Alonso, but I don't know if they ask for that to all the grid or not. To me, it's the same if it's Vettel or Alonso. To the only one I would make it a bit easier, would be my teammate if that gave us a great result on a weekend."


Like any bad Spanish journalist, this guy feels the need to throw in a dig at Vettel in that question. To this, it seems to me, Perez, who must already be a little pissed from the previous question, decides to repay the journo with his own currency: if he's implying that people let Vettel by, well, Ferrari asked him to take care of Alonso. He doesn't know if they did it with all the grid (evidently, as people have said, this is not telling every driver not to crash into him or to be careful when they see him in their mirrors). I think Perez uses the words "que cuidara de" on purpose, because he doesn't want to say "to let him through", but he certainly doesn't mean "que tuviera cuidado con", "to be careful with". In this context "que cuidara de" means "go easy on him".

And, of course, what he says next, makes the meaning of "cuidara de" even clearer: he would only make it a bit easier on a teammate (let him pass) if there was something important to achieve.

Not something new in F1. I just watched all the seasons from 1990 to 2010 in the off season and in many of the compilations there was a special pit segment where you could see every team principal lobbying all over the pit lane when their driver was leading or making a great comeback. Difficult to say if it was at the same level as today though. In any case, it has been done before and others do it too. But that doesn't mean it's not wrong.










Edited by RealRacing, 20 March 2013 - 01:08.


#132 ViMaMo

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 01:18

The Toro Rosso's would rather take to the grass than impede a Red Bull.

#133 Astro

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 03:16

In this context "que cuidara de" means "go easy on him".

Yeah, I think "go easy on him" is even more to the point. I agree with that. But that doesn't mean necessarily to let him pass. It makes more sense than Ferrari asked him not to defend that hard to avoid contact, crashing, etc., since Alonso was fighting for the championship. I think it would be ludicrous for Ferrari to expect Perez to prioritize Ferrari over Sauber. And in fact, Perez then says "The only one I would make it easier for is my partner". Again, make it easier doesn't mean necessarily "let him pass", it probably means not fighting tooth and nail against him.

Ferrari could have saved itself from asking that to Perez, because he is pretty clean when fighting other drivers, but it is understandable they were worried. It is also something that you could ask the rest of the grid without much controversy, which is why Perez says "but I don't know if they ask all the paddock or not".

Regarding "cuidara de", I am no linguists, but "cuidar" as "take care" when talking about opponents, just doesn't make sense unless it means "be careful", or even better, "go easy".

Edited by Astro, 20 March 2013 - 03:16.


#134 boldhakka

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 03:19

Regarding "cuidara de", I am no linguists, but "cuidar" as "take care" when talking about opponents, just doesn't make sense unless it means "be careful", or even better, "go easy".


I agree, but you're kind of begging the question in this sentence, because the whole premise lies on whether Ferrari wants Perez to treat Alonso as an opponent or not.

#135 HPT

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 03:32

Hearing this, i cant help but imagine ferrari as a shady mob-style character saying: you take car of our boy, or else... Also if you remember malaysia last year, when the team suddenly radios perez to basically tell him to hold station in second, destroying his concentration and preventing what looked like an easy win, it all clicks into place.


Did they do the same in Canada and Monza? :stoned:

#136 boldhakka

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 03:36

Did they do the same in Canada and Monza? :stoned:


By Canada and Monza, Perez already knew they were sticking with Massa and Perez was already in advanced talks with McLaren. So he told the team not to bother with taking care of Ferrari. :smoking:

Like shooting fish in a barrel.

#137 Astro

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 04:19

I agree, but you're kind of begging the question in this sentence, because the whole premise lies on whether Ferrari wants Perez to treat Alonso as an opponent or not.

That would need for Ferrari to consider Perez as part of its team, with no regard to the fact that Perez is driving for Sauber. If that was the case, this understanding was not mutual given Perez's comments (i.e. "I don't make distinctions between both [Vettel and Alonso]"). That is to say, unless Perez is lying, he treated both Vettel and Alonso as opponents. And if Perez treated them as opponents, it is quite likely Ferrari saw him the same way. Or else, Ferrari was incredibly deluded, because according to Perez, they asked him often the same thing.

#138 Kingshark

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 04:37

Ask Vergne how to take care of a golden boy.;)

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#139 H2H

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 06:24

Interesting thread. Another native Spanish speaker here. I think it would be helpful to listen to the audio in order to hear Perez's tone in that part as it might tell a lot. In any case, without access to that, I'll put in my 5c and try to interpret this.

I think it is important to see the context first: SP was a former Ferrari academy driver that was supposedly being groomed to go to Ferrari but in the end didn't. Instead he ended up going to McLaren, Ferrari's biggest rivals. And he's no longer at Sauber. So, basically, he has no more compromises with Ferrari, which, one would guess, allow him to speak more freely.

Secondly, if you look at the rest of the questions, this is kind of a harsh interview, especially the one about his Slim backing:

"¿No le molesta que haya gente que piense que está en McLaren precisamente por ese apoyo?"

"Doesn't it bother you that there are people that think that you are at McLaren precisely because of this support (The slim family via Telmex)?"

And then comes the question we are talking about here, but people have missed the last part, which is also interesting:

"Hablando de Fernando, ¿cree que los pilotos tienen una actitud distinta si le ven a él por el retrovisor que si ven a Vettel? Me refiero a la remontada de Abu Dabi, cuando al alemán muchos casi se le apartaban."

"Speaking of Fernando, do you think drivers have a different attitude if they see him in their rear view mirror than if they see Vettel? I am referring to the come-back of Abu Dabi, when many almost moved away from the German."

"Debería preguntar uno a uno. En mi caso no es así, yo no hago distinciones entre ambos. El año pasado, cuando yo tenía comunicación con Ferrari, ellos me pedían a menudo que cuidara de Alonso, pero no sé si se lo piden a toda la parrilla o no. A mí me da igual si es Vettel o Alonso. Al único que se lo pondría un poco más fácil sería a mi compañero si eso nos diera un gran resultado en un fin de semana."

"You should ask one by one. In my case it isn't so, I make no distinctions between both. Last year, when I had communication with Ferrari, they often asked me to take care of Alonso, but I don't know if they ask for that to all the grid or not. To me, it's the same if it's Vettel or Alonso. To the only one I would make it a bit easier, would be my teammate if that gave us a great result on a weekend."


Like any bad Spanish journalist, this guy feels the need to throw in a dig at Vettel in that question. To this, it seems to me, Perez, who must already be a little pissed from the previous question, decides to repay the journo with his own currency: if he's implying that people let Vettel by, well, Ferrari asked him to take care of Alonso. He doesn't know if they did it with all the grid (evidently, as people have said, this is not telling every driver not to crash into him or to be careful when they see him in their mirrors). I think Perez uses the words "que cuidara de" on purpose, because he doesn't want to say "to let him through", but he certainly doesn't mean "que tuviera cuidado con", "to be careful with". In this context "que cuidara de" means "go easy on him".

And, of course, what he says next, makes the meaning of "cuidara de" even clearer: he would only make it a bit easier on a teammate (let him pass) if there was something important to achieve.

Not something new in F1. I just watched all the seasons from 1990 to 2010 in the off season and in many of the compilations there was a special pit segment where you could see every team principal lobbying all over the pit lane when their driver was leading or making a great comeback. Difficult to say if it was at the same level as today though. In any case, it has been done before and others do it too. But that doesn't mean it's not wrong.


A nice post. Perez did answer the rather tedious question about Slim in the right way and does handle the next question of the 'bad Spanish journalist' also well. In itself it is nothing spectacular but it shows of course the hypocrisis of some posters. Ferrari certainly has a history of asking to 'take care' of Alonso.

Edited by H2H, 20 March 2013 - 06:26.


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#140 Headspin

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 08:19

A nice post. Perez did answer the rather tedious question about Slim in the right way and does handle the next question of the 'bad Spanish journalist' also well. In itself it is nothing spectacular but it shows of course the hypocrisis of some posters. Ferrari certainly has a history of asking to 'take care' of Alonso.


And Alonso has a history of at least expecting to be taken care of. No other way explain his behaviour with Petrov on the cool down lap in 2010 season finale.

All this is nothing new though, has happened much before RB and Toro Rosso. But it's not like all of them are doing it.



#141 Claudius

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 08:28

Well, I am not sure if that is the real question... at least in this thread. But I agree with the rest of your post. I think it is not fair.
But people here claimed that the article was gone, that the answer backfired to the journalist, etc... those things are simply not true. In fact, that answer, the one that "backfired" to the interviewer, is the headline of the article.
Why? Because most of the people, the journo included, understood what it meant, to "be careful" with, and not "help him".


It amazes me how people still think that Pérez said that in a negative or ilegal way against Ferrari, or that the answer backfired to the journalist so much that it made the headline.
Anyway I answered way too many times in this thread, there is one thousand reasons to criticise or dislike Ferrari, I don't see the point to exaggerate or lie about this particular interview.


My comments were tounge in cheek.
Thankfully I don't think we'll ever see that.

If the web of inter-team alliances grows any stronger it could affect racing adversely.

Edited by Claudius, 21 March 2013 - 20:08.


#142 Claudius

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 08:34

it could be either or.. I see what you are saying but the context is what gives it away.. "A mí me da igual si es Vettel o Alonso. Al único que se lo pondría un poco más fácil sería a mi compañero si eso nos diera un gran resultado en un fin de semana" .....

This is what he says immediately following that sentence. . the bold part: The only one who I would make it easy for would be my teammate...

That right there makes is obviously clear that he is referring to making life easy for Alonso.. I am not surprised.. Ferrari did this with Sauber in 03 when Montoya was racing against MS in Monza.. In that case back then, it was actually telling the Sauber drivers to interfere/block Montoya..

Redbull has the same policy with TR as we've seen their drivers move away for Vettel.

I just wonder who from Ferrari makes those calls.. In my opinion, it is LdM and not Domenicalli or the newer guys.



That incident has been exaggerated.
IIRC JPM lost round about 1 second lapping HHF which is pretty normal in racing. JPM caught him in a bad place and had to wait a few corners. Big deal.
And HHF and MS weren't the best of friends. I doubt HHF would help Michael in that way.



#143 boldhakka

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 08:39

That would need for Ferrari to consider Perez as part of its team, with no regard to the fact that Perez is driving for Sauber. If that was the case, this understanding was not mutual given Perez's comments (i.e. "I don't make distinctions between both [Vettel and Alonso]"). That is to say, unless Perez is lying, he treated both Vettel and Alonso as opponents. And if Perez treated them as opponents, it is quite likely Ferrari saw him the same way. Or else, Ferrari was incredibly deluded, because according to Perez, they asked him often the same thing.


Precisely, I would absolutely expect Ferrari to use the "you're one of us" approach and language to make the request. Perez, as you say, didn't fall for it.


#144 as65p

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 09:00

That depends on your perception of the issue. I think the issue is whether Ferrari tried to influence another team to benefit one of their drivers, not whether another team actually did so.


And if so, do you think that deserves to be called an "issue" (as in noteworthy) in the context of Formula 1?

#145 Buttoneer

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 09:54

The real "issue" here is that it's a peek behind the curtain and draws our attention away from the pretty flames and fearsome face of the great and powerful Oz to the little grey man* franticaly working away at levers and wheels.


*Not referring to Slarti, obviously.

#146 Slartibartfast

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 09:57

And if so, do you think that deserves to be called an "issue" (as in noteworthy) in the context of Formula 1?

Yes. So do enough people to make this thread, including you.

#147 Juan Kerr

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 10:02

Well Perez definitely avoided the pending overtake at the Malaysian GP last year that was obvious. I remember sat there thinking to myself 'I bet he'll get right on the back of Alonso and mysteriously won't be able to pass even with DRS' then I thought that would look a bit suss and was wondering if he would purposely run the car wide a couple of seconds before he did. I should've stopped watching the sport then but for some reason I have a blind faith that some team or driver will have the balls to upset the underwritten code of conduct that falsifies the show one day and provide some genuine entertainment.

#148 undersquare

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 10:03

I think this has been an excellent discussion.

Why only Alonso, is one 'issue'. What about Felipe?

#149 e34

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 10:03

OMG!!

A top level administrator of the inflluential Autosport group reveals that Ecclestone manipulated frantically something at Australia.

#150 Slartibartfast

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 10:08

The real "issue" here is that it's a peek behind the curtain and draws our attention away from the pretty flames and fearsome face of the great and powerful Oz to the little grey man* franticaly working away at levers and wheels.


*Not referring to Slarti, obviously.

Although that does describe my workshop quite well...