29 replies to this topic

[robefc]

I thought some might find these comments form Mark Hughes interesting. Vettel's ability to race away over the first few laps of a stint has been a feature of the last few years.

One explanation that has been ventured is that the Renault engine is less thirsty than Merc's and so the RB is lighter at the start. That, of course, may still be part of the explanation but Hughes writes -


Part of Red Bull's strategy when its cars qualify at the front is to swerve everything towards all-out performance in the opening lap, in fuelling and tyre pressures.

Running higher tyre pressures gives more instant performance, but ensures that they are then overpressured as the temperatures come up in subsequent laps.

http://plus.autospor...es-first-blood/

[LiJu914]

Unlikely.

[Lights]

Poor Mark Webber, without KERS and clutch settings he won't ever be able to make use of it.

Hi robefc btw.

[prty]

You could see in Abu Dhabi 2011 start how the exhaust burned a circle in the rear tyre, maybe they even had a way to heat the rear tyres with the exhausts.

[Ross Stonefeld]

What a stunning analysis and indeed development in modern motorsport. Car is driven hard to establish a gap and then drives only fast enough to maintain it.

[robefc]

What a stunning analysis and indeed development in modern motorsport. Car is driven hard to establish a gap and then drives only fast enough to maintain it.

I was more interested in them setting tyre pressures to maximise first lap performance at the expense of pace later on and also presumably fuelling lighter at the expense of saving fuel later on.

[Ross Stonefeld]

That's not new either.

[benzine]

looks like a special engine map , diff settings in the first couple of them laps and then back it off

[tjkoyen]

1st lap mastery = 5th lap meltdown

[robefc]

That's not new either.

Well I apologise if I am bringing old news to your attention but I wasn't aware of it!

So why don't other teams look to do the same thing? Macca could have last year when they had the pace for pole...or do you think they did do the same thing?

[robefc]

1st lap mastery = 5th lap meltdown

Not usually

[LiJu914]

So why don't other teams look to do the same thing?

Who says Red Bull does it (except Mark Hughes)?

Tyre pressure can affect the performance quite significantly - especially with these sensitive tyres we have today.
We even got told, that the new Pirellis are quite easy to heat up, so there´s little need for that. And even if we neglect that, why should one compromise a whole stint for that? The initial advantage wouldn´t be big enough to still get a payoff - it´s far more likely that quite the opposite would be the case.

Edited by LiJu914, 18 March 2013 - 14:42.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Because the first stint is so short and you'd lose less time running less than ideal settings for the first 10 laps, then you would being stuck in traffic for the same amount of time.

[LiJu914]

Because the first stint is so short and you'd lose less time running less than ideal settings for the first 10 laps, then you would being stuck in traffic for the same amount of time.

I disagree. Having an advantage for 2 laps (at best) doesn´t counterbalance the disadvantage for the next 8 laps. And i don´t see the Red Bulls getting of the starting blocks the best.

In fact that´s Ferrari/Alonso (start + opening lap) - a car, that allegedly had problems to heat up its tyres quickly.


Imho: The theory is the same myth as all the claims that RB always chooses to optimise their setup for Qualifying/Pole.

Edited by LiJu914, 18 March 2013 - 14:54.

[robefc]

Who says Red Bull does it (except Mark Hughes)?

Tyre pressure can affect the performance quite significantly - especially with these sensitive tyres we have today.
We even got told, that the new Pirellis are quite easy to heat up, so there´s little need for that. And even if we neglect that, why should one compromise a whole stint for that? The initial advantage wouldn´t be big enough to still get a payoff - it´s far more likely that quite the opposite would be the case.

No-one that I'm aware of, also not sure anyone has attempted an alternative explanation for why RB can be so quick in the first few laps relative to their general pace.

I disagree. Having an advantage for 2 laps (at best) doesn´t counterbalance the disadvantage for the next 8 laps. And i don´t see the Red Bulls getting of the starting blocks the best.

In fact that´s Ferrari/Alonso (start + opening lap) - a car, that allegedly had problems to heat up its tyres quickly.


Imho: The theory is the same myth as all the claims that RB always chooses to optimise their setup for Qualifying/Pole.

Is it not possible that the practice has worked well in previous seasons but they just found out it doesn't work with these tyres...or at least it didn't in oz?

[Sakae]

I seems to recall from an extensive interview with AN, that part of "gap strategy" (here is a new term), is based on rather mundane reason, which is to escape effective DRS deployment of the following car, because fundamentally RBR is a slow car in straight line speed. In Austin 2012 combination of one back-marker and track configuration simply negated that strategy, and at the end it cost Vettel race victory, and made Hamilton look like a hero.

[robefc]

I seems to recall from an extensive interview with AN, that part of "gap strategy" (here is a new term), is based on rather mundane reason, which is to escape effective DRS deployment of the following car, because fundamentally RBR is a slow car in straight line speed. In Austin 2012 combination of one back-marker and track configuration simply negated that strategy, and at the end it cost Vettel race victory, and made Hamilton look like a hero.

Makes sense, just whether that strategy is just down to driver pushing or other factors as Hughes' suggests.

[LiJu914]

No-one that I'm aware of, also not sure anyone has attempted an alternative explanation for why RB can be so quick in the first few laps relative to their general pace.

One theory: Pole Position, free air and partially the driver himself.

Or can you remember many brilliant opening laps from Vettel, when he wasn´t on pole - or all of Mark Webber´s opening laps....

Is it not possible that the practice has worked well in previous seasons but they just found out it doesn't work with these tyres...or at least it didn't in oz?

Many things are possible, but that doesn´t change my p.o.v. that it´s unlikely and unreasonable (especially as the first stints in previous years were often much longer than last Sunday).

[Sakae]

I am not sure how to respond, but I am not aware that Webber cannot deploy and do the same as Vettel. For some reason, from history, Webber usually does his own thing, and its not always most clever one. In my own observation, which is usually dutifully ignored by all Hamilton' and Alonso' fans, I really do think that Seb has fire in his belly, he is still hungry, and his is simply very good at what he does, making some people on the track often look less than competent.

[DS27]

Let's be honest - if the best brains from all the other F1 teams can't work it out, it's unlikely some numbnuts journo's analysis is correct.

[David1976]

I think a more likely explanation would be Vettel going banzai at the beginning of a stint to get a lead (at the expense of tyre preservation).

[Ross Stonefeld]

Let's be honest - if the best brains from all the other F1 teams can't work it out, it's unlikely some numbnuts journo's analysis is correct.

You wouldn't do it unless you were on the front row, because at that point it does become a gamble and more likely to be a net loss.

[Tenmantaylor]

Worked for Webber didn't it. Just give Vettel some credit. The rest is a natural result of Newey's strengths rather than some aero-strategic taurine fuelled masterplan. Don't buy Hughes' psuedo analysis most the time.

[Seanspeed]

I think a lot of it is also that the Red Bull allows them to be a bit more confident of their car in the first laps.

[robefc]

One theory: Pole Position, free air and partially the driver himself.

Or can you remember many brilliant opening laps from Vettel, when he wasn´t on pole - or all of Mark Webber´s opening laps....



Many things are possible, but that doesn´t change my p.o.v. that it´s unlikely and unreasonable (especially as the first stints in previous years were often much longer than last Sunday).

Other's have had pole positions and free air and personally I don't think Vettel's ability to drive a quick car quickly is that much different to say Lewis's.

I can't remember how Mark has done in the first few laps when he's been first into the first corner.

[Skinnyguy]

Alright, very cool and sophisticated theories by pundits... but have anyone thought that the only ones doing the first laps all the time on the racing line are the front row guys? If you leave T1 in the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th position, you´ll inevitably see a chance to pass/will have to cover/will have to slow down because the guys in front are two wide. I think that´s more than enough to produce the kind of gaps we see by the end of lap two. After all, the times when RB doesn´t start in front row they aren´t making up places easily, certainly not at Ferrari level.

[LiJu914]

Other's have had pole positions and free air....

And the pattern is exactly the same in the majority of all cases:

2012:
Australia: Button wins the start and gets out of the DRS-window within the first two laps.
China: Rosberg wins the start and gets out of the DRS-window within the first two laps.
Spain: Alonso wins the start and gets out of the DRS-window within the first two laps.
Hungary: Hamilton wins the start and gets out of the DRS-window within the first two laps.
Spa: Button wins the start and gets out of the DRS-window within the first two laps.
Italy: Hamilton wins the start and gets out of the DRS-window within the first two laps.
Singapore: Hamilton wins the start and gets out of the DRS-window within the first two laps.
Abu Dhabi: Hamilton wins the start and gets out of the DRS-window within the first three laps (due to his small mistake).

So what´s the big difference between these guys and the Red Bulls?

I don't think Vettel's ability to drive a quick car quickly is that much different to say Lewis's.

I was less talking about the driver´s abilities and more about their approach for the start of the race.

[tjkoyen]

Not usually

I mean in this instance.

Whether or not it's a result of the Red Bull car or their specific setup for the SS Pirellis, Vettel roached his tires immediately after pulling out that gap.

Also it may not be down to setup, but rather the fact that clearly whoever gets to turn 1 first will have an advantage of being in clean air and not having to scrap with anyone. While the rest of the field battles, the leader pulls away. Not necessarily a Red Bull specific strategy or anything.

[bimmeric]

This always cracks me up when watching F1 coverage when the announcers gush over Vettel pulling a 2 second gap in a lap or two. You mean the fastest car over a lap, staring from the good side of the grid, in clean air and not fighting with other cars is the fastest and can pull a gap over slower cars who are taking non optimal lines and braking points while jostling for position
? Shocking.

[pizzalover]

I am not sure how to respond, but I am not aware that Webber cannot deploy and do the same as Vettel. For some reason, from history, Webber usually does his own thing, and its not always most clever one. In my own observation, which is usually dutifully ignored by all Hamilton' and Alonso' fans, I really do think that Seb has fire in his belly, he is still hungry, and his is simply very good at what he does, making some people on the track often look less than competent.

He doesn't need fire in his belly. Confidence in being the fastest driver, in the fastest car, works wonders I believe.