147 replies to this topic

[mattferg]

Right. They started the 28 concept in December.

No, September, when Lewis told them he was leaving... Plenty of time. Citation needed for evidence otherwise. Unless Hamilton fans are worried Macca would've been better than Merc this year...

[Buttoneer]

Posts deleted.

If you're going to say something 'brutal' then be sure that it's not defamatory.

[superdelphinus]

No, September, when Lewis told them he was leaving... Plenty of time. Citation needed for evidence otherwise. Unless Hamilton fans are worried Macca would've been better than Merc this year...

Keep going...

[SmokeScreen]

Perhaps this helps with the argument


http://www1.skysport...3-Australian-GP

Where their competitors have evolved, McLaren have revolutionised, and what seemed bold at the time of the MP4-28's launch was made to look like a disastrous error of judgement on track this weekend and panic off it following the revelation from Sporting Director Sam Michael that the team took the decision to rip up the MP4-27's design philosophy around "June, July" last year.

Suddenly, with the memory of the team's mid-season slump in 2012 still rife, an entirely different perspective is applied to McLaren's revolution. Was it just bad timing which caused the team to give up on the MP4-27?

[learningtobelost]

Err not true at all, they probably decided the car concept AFTER Lewis left, as in case you didn't notice Button said the 2013 car was designed around him. Doubt that'd be true if they thought they were keeping Lewis.

I must admit, I really enjoy your posts on the subject of Lewis.

[goldenboy]

I used to think their comments should be taken seriously but over the years I believe they deserve respect, but their opinions are just so out of date really and not applicable as much as they would like in my mind.

[Seano]

Whitmarsh said that the 28 had been designed around Lewis post Eddie Jordan's crystal ball act, long before Lewis announced he was leaving (when MW was in denial).

Whilst the former Champions thoughts should be respected, they should consider carefully as to whether they are competent and have relevant experience to comment on contemporary fellow Champions, before running their mouths.

Seano

[genespleen]

The Lotus 72 was the fastest car in the '73 season.

Ronnie Peterson took 9 out of 15 poles that year, and were it not for a less than stellar start to the year, I believe Ronnie would have won the title that year. Jackie did not get that title easily.

While 1973 was hardly a walkaway for JS, the flying Swede had six (6!) DNFs in a 15-race season, four of them before the season was half complete. Fiitipaldi--second in the championship--had four retirements. JS had precisely one, not including the last race at Watkins Glen, which of course he did not start because of Cervert's death.

[akshay380]

Whitmarsh said that the 28 had been designed around Lewis post Eddie Jordan's crystal ball act, long before Lewis announced he was leaving (when MW was in denial).

Whilst the former Champions thoughts should be respected, they should consider carefully as to whether they are competent and have relevant experience to comment on contemporary fellow Champions, before running their mouths.

Seano

That means Lewis would extract maximum from car while present 'balanced' drivers cannot

[packapoo]

Lewis obviously subscribes to the Dale Carnegie art of speaking.

[bourbon]

The old set is always saying off the wall stuff mixed with great stuff and you just have to separate it. They often issue judgments ahead of schedule that are completely wrong - then they just change their story.

The funniest was the trash-talking smackdown Moss and Walker gave Vettel before Abu Dhabi 2010 in that movie theatre skit. That didn't quite end up the way they projected it would...

Hamilton can call them out, or not, but they won't change, lol.

Edited by bourbon, 20 March 2013 - 04:24.

[Kingshark]

Stirling Moss is a bitter old man who still believes Schumacher only deserved two of his 7 WDC. He's incredibly jealous of Michael's success in F1 and you can clearly hear it in many of his interviews. He obviously feels that Schumi won too many championships for a driver of his calibre, while he himself perceives that he should have won more titles.

Moss can be very obnoxious at times.

[FigJam]

Lewis hasnt said anything wrong imo....but at this point I would think it better he doesn't respond at all.

It's far, far too early to be calling anything. Lewis and Mercedes could still turn out to be Schumacher/Ferrari or, at the other end, Villeneuve/BAR....or somewhere in between.

Believe it or not...there were points where JV's move to BAR looked to be tracking upwards towards regularly fighting with the top 2 or 3 teams at the front. Then before you know it...well...

Lewis has alot of work to do, make no mistake.

[Jimisgod]

Stirling Moss is a bitter old man who still believes Schumacher only deserved two of his 7 WDC. He's incredibly jealous of Michael's success in F1 and you can clearly hear it in many of his interviews. He obviously feels that Schumi won too many championships for a driver of his calibre, while he himself perceives that he should have won more titles.

Moss can be very obnoxious at times.

Is this your expert psychological analysis?

[aditya-now]

Lewis is bang-on IMO.

He had 6 years with McLaren (as an F1 driver that is) and only on two of those did the team, which likes to think of itself as the top team in the sport, produce a car which was good enough for the WDC. It isn't as if he has left an unbeatable team and going by their start to the season, they won't be anywhere near even Mercedes for the next few races at least.

Frankly, people like Jackie Stewart have started to bore me.

As I said in an earlier thread, Jackie Stewart must channel his frustrations. He has had a pick on Lewis Hamilton for years now, and he was wrong in most cases.

[Kingshark]

Is this your expert psychological analysis?

Nope, it's an opinion.

Likewise, it doesn't take an expert to figure out that Stirling is clearly envy of Michael.

[mgs315]

He didn't say that no, but he is regarded as a great and he knows it. Out of all the old guys, JS is probably the one I like the least, if Hamilton was joining Lotus you would not hear a peep from Jackie with that big fat Genii logo on his shirt.

Hey to be fair Lauda slated Lewis before they both had the three pointed star and Petronas on their work shirts.

[skid solo]

Utter nonsense. They would've decided the concept of the car at around this time last year, well before they knew whether or not Hamilton was staying. You're grasping at straws if you're trying to argue it wasn't a good move for hamilton. It's the best thing for him, in terms of his mindset, as well as being in a car that is competitive not just now but in the future.

Conversely, there are a lot of questions that hangover Mclaren at the moment. 2009 wasn't a good year, 2011 they royally screwed up in winter testing with the fan tail exhaust but were fortunate that when they copied the red bull solution it gave them instant lap time. They've lost a lead driver, lost their main sponsor, there's question marks over engines, they've lost their technical director, the car they've produced is an absolute mutt and under the stewardship of Whitmarsh the good ship mclaren are looking rudderless. In the first race of the season, they've made a litany of errors that blighted them last year - putting button and perez on to ss tyres too soon in q 2, then putting button on ss too soon in q3 so tyres were destroyed for race, slow pitstops (6th fastest team overall), inexplicably putting Perez on to super softs in second stints and losing a shed load of time. They're calamitous as a team at the moment and I can't see Whitmarsh there beyond this season.

Hamilton's well out of it!

[Bartonz20let]

While some are defending jackie, I dont think Lewis has spoken a word about him. People should read the complete article first.

This!

I've been looking for an artical where he names anyone but can't find it, can only find a cobbled together hatchet job designed to get into the heads of the closed minded headline junkies using blog aggregators.

I thought people who watch F1 were supposed to be intelligent but reading some of the bile connected to Lewis Hamilton plus the amount of people can only read a headline but stumble over content and context like its written in Latin makes me think F1 fans a just the same as football fans in many ways, in some ways worse.

When Lewis confirmed his switch just about every ex driver crawled out of the woodwork for one last go in the limelight, taking a ride on the Lewis Hamilton train, rather predictably JS is at it again on the mirror, rightly or wrongly, the guy has plenty to say about Merc and Lewis

http://www.mirror.co...ercedes-1773399

Edited by Bartonz20let, 20 March 2013 - 07:29.

[garoidb]

Hamilton's well out of it!

[jj2728]

Nope, it's an opinion.

Likewise, it doesn't take an expert to figure out that Stirling is clearly envy of Michael.

You obviously don't know much about Sir Stirling Moss, do you? I would suggest that you read up a bit more on the man before making unsubstantiated claims about his 'envy' of Schumacher or that he is 'bitter' about not having won the WDC. Before you start making uninformed and juvenile statements, you need to learn a bit more about the past.

Edited by jj2728, 20 March 2013 - 15:05.

[genespleen]

We should probably remember that in the absence of personal contact, the majority of our understanding of the personality of JYS and Stirling Moss is created almost exclusively through a media lens. While I feel that sometimes both Moss and JYS come across rather as blowhards, I try to realize that this may well be a media creation rather than the reality.

[DS27]

Well, it's finally happened - I am in agreeance with the sentiment of what Lewis is saying.

[Buttoneer]

Nope, it's an opinion.

Likewise, it doesn't take an expert to figure out that Stirling is clearly envy of Michael.

This is former driver Michael Schumacher you are referring to?

[jj2728]

We should probably remember that in the absence of personal contact, the majority of our understanding of the personality of JYS and Stirling Moss is created almost exclusively through a media lens. While I feel that sometimes both Moss and JYS come across rather as blowhards, I try to realize that this may well be a media creation rather than the reality.

Books are an excellent media for reading up on drivers' past. I sometimes think that their histories are ignored, that their achievemnents and accomplishments behind the wheel are given short thrift. The current day media (with very few exceptions) IMHO is at times even less informed about said drivers and thus people are given sway to opinions and iterpret them in the wrong manner. What is even more disturbing is that when someone such as JYS or SMS say something that is interpreted the wrong way against a current driver, they are immmediately labelled as 'idiots', 'envious' and 'blowhards'. I find it difficult to understand how so many so called fans and armchair experts consider themselves to be such when they have so little respect for the past and the rich history of those that participated in it.

[Rinehart]

As I understand it some drivers and hacks have said that Hamiltons move to Merc would be a mistake. And based on the fact he finished 5th in Australia.. he's come out all puffy chested to say they're wrong. ALREADY!

Forgive me, but I don't think 1 x 5th place is the beginning or the end of it. A logical barometer would be if he wins a WDC before a McLaren driver does or if the sustained level of performance at Mercedes is better than at McLaren over the period of time he drives for Mercedes.

[OoxLox]

Books are an excellent media for reading up on drivers' past. I sometimes think that their histories are ignored, that their achievemnents and accomplishments behind the wheel are given short thrift. The current day media (with very few exceptions) IMHO is at times even less informed about said drivers and thus people are given sway to opinions and iterpret them in the wrong manner. What is even more disturbing is that when someone such as JYS or SMS say something that is interpreted the wrong way against a current driver, they are immmediately labelled as 'idiots', 'envious' and 'blowhards'. I find it difficult to understand how so many so called fans and armchair experts consider themselves to be such when they have so little respect for the past and the rich history of those that participated in it.

Well said

[OoxLox]

Books are an excellent media for reading up on drivers' past. I sometimes think that their histories are ignored, that their achievemnents and accomplishments behind the wheel are given short thrift. The current day media (with very few exceptions) IMHO is at times even less informed about said drivers and thus people are given sway to opinions and iterpret them in the wrong manner. What is even more disturbing is that when someone such as JYS or SMS say something that is interpreted the wrong way against a current driver, they are immmediately labelled as 'idiots', 'envious' and 'blowhards'. I find it difficult to understand how so many so called fans and armchair experts consider themselves to be such when they have so little respect for the past and the rich history of those that participated in it.

Well said

[stanga]

As I understand it some drivers and hacks have said that Hamiltons move to Merc would be a mistake. And based on the fact he finished 5th in Australia.. he's come out all puffy chested to say they're wrong. ALREADY!

Forgive me, but I don't think 1 x 5th place is the beginning or the end of it. A logical barometer would be if he wins a WDC before a McLaren driver does or if the sustained level of performance at Mercedes is better than at McLaren over the period of time he drives for Mercedes.

The irony is that you completely missed the main thrust of what Hamilton said. You haven't got a clue what constitutes 'the right decision' because it was not purely made on the grounds of competitiveness - you were not party to the events away from the cameras which soured things between McLaren and Hamilton. But I'm not surprised if that nuance was overlooked - you too busy coming up with your self-important 'barometer'. Get over yourself.

[Bartonz20let]

As I understand it some drivers and hacks have said that Hamiltons move to Merc would be a mistake. And based on the fact he finished 5th in Australia.. he's come out all puffy chested to say they're wrong. ALREADY!

Forgive me, but I don't think 1 x 5th place is the beginning or the end of it. A logical barometer would be if he wins a WDC before a McLaren driver does or if the sustained level of performance at Mercedes is better than at McLaren over the period of time he drives for Mercedes.

I think you can base a move on more than just results, results are obviously of prime importance but its pretty obvious he's happier in his new team and looks like he's getting satisfaction from his work.

In that respect it's already a positive move as he was clearly unhappy at McLaren and winning wasn't going to improve that significantly.

[Kingshark]

This is former driver Michael Schumacher you are referring to?

Nope, Michael Phelps.

[wepmob2000]

I find the lack of respect towards people like JYS and Stirling Moss incredible, they really have been there and done it. And they're hardly out of the loop, being involved in F1 in one or another ever since their 'retirement'. JYS was a team owner as recently as 1999, so he probably knows a fair bit about current F1. Whats more, they're entitled to their opinions, and entitled not to be insulted for expressing them.

Its not often I'm staggered by the ignorance some people have about this sport, as if it only began when they became interested, but the comment that JYS only won his WDC's because he had the fastest car is pathetic. His era is well before mine, but if you do some reading (those strange things called books see.....). You'll find he rarely had the best car, in fact his cars were usually too tricky for most other drivers to compete with.... do the research before revealing your ignorance....

[Sakae]

According to ESPN, Hamilton hits out at Sir Jacky Stewart and Stirling Moss on their opinion on his move to Mercedes.

Never a dull moment, as they say.

http://en.espnf1.com...ory/103496.html

I wonder if the thread headline could be also relevant to DC and JV regarding their recent (negative) comments about Vettel.

Edited by Sakae, 21 March 2013 - 18:47.

[SophieB]

As I understand it some drivers and hacks have said that Hamiltons move to Merc would be a mistake. And based on the fact he finished 5th in Australia.. he's come out all puffy chested to say they're wrong. ALREADY!

Forgive me, but I don't think 1 x 5th place is the beginning or the end of it. A logical barometer would be if he wins a WDC before a McLaren driver does or if the sustained level of performance at Mercedes is better than at McLaren over the period of time he drives for Mercedes.

The main focus of the critics' attitude of 'Big mistake! Big! Huge!' was not just carrying on as if going to Mercedes was like going to drive for Marussia in exchange for a big jar of magic beans. The primary thrust of the criticism was questioning the sanity of leaving McLaren because McLaren were always going to be close contenders for the championship every year. They will always be there or thereabouts, was the general sentiment and he was therefore crazy or very greedy or both to be leaving the sure thing.

He always said he was taking a chance going to Mercedes. But he would have been taking a chance staying at McLaren too, and that got massively played down. Hamilton seems too kind (or wise) to point to his old team's current massive struggles but I am sure they have not escaped his notice. So in that sense, yeah as far as I'm concerned a whole bunch of pundits and former drivers have a bit of egg on their face.

[P123]

As I understand it some drivers and hacks have said that Hamiltons move to Merc would be a mistake. And based on the fact he finished 5th in Australia.. he's come out all puffy chested to say they're wrong. ALREADY!

Forgive me, but I don't think 1 x 5th place is the beginning or the end of it. A logical barometer would be if he wins a WDC before a McLaren driver does or if the sustained level of performance at Mercedes is better than at McLaren over the period of time he drives for Mercedes.

I'm surprised that your understanding would be so poor, even accounting for the fact that taking such an 'understanding' is a means of positive reinforcement with regards your negative view of Hamilton . Especially as his point was that the truth is usually somewhere in the middle. Those who can't see beyond the end of their nose belong in this forum.

[yoyogetfunky]

I find the lack of respect towards people like JYS and Stirling Moss incredible, they really have been there and done it. And they're hardly out of the loop, being involved in F1 in one or another ever since their 'retirement'. JYS was a team owner as recently as 1999, so he probably knows a fair bit about current F1. Whats more, they're entitled to their opinions, and entitled not to be insulted for expressing them.

If it was only once a year they talk to the media, allright, but these guys make a living of being the public F1 'great' and blabber something every week. Respect for their racecraft: yes. Respect for their populistic opinions, rent-a-quotes: no.

[P123]

If it was only once a year they talk to the media, allright, but these guys make a living of being the public F1 'great' and blabber something every week. Respect for their racecraft: yes. Respect for their populistic opinions, rent-a-quotes: no.

They really don't say that much, it;s just that what they say generates a lot of comment in return. As a general rule, when a driver (current or ex) says something remotely negative about another driver they are then attacked as idiots/ jealous/ senile/ don't know what their talking about, etc. Obviously their opinions matter to a certain extent. The real muppets are the fans who over-react to anything a driver says. In this case the only reason Stewart and Moss are being singled out is because the author of the story included a snippet of their comments. And Hamilton is being attacked by similar numpties who have created an additional story of him boasting over 5th place.... The drivers can't win with these folk.

[yoyogetfunky]

They really don't say that much, it;s just that what they say generates a lot of comment in return. As a general rule, when a driver (current or ex) says something remotely negative about another driver they are then attacked as idiots/ jealous/ senile/ don't know what their talking about, etc. Obviously their opinions matter to a certain extent. The real muppets are the fans who over-react to anything a driver says. In this case the only reason Stewart and Moss are being singled out is because the author of the story included a snippet of their comments. And Hamilton is being attacked by similar numpties who have created an additional story of him boasting over 5th place.... The drivers can't win with these folk.

You got a good point there.

[Rinehart]

I'm surprised that your understanding would be so poor, even accounting for the fact that taking such an 'understanding' is a means of positive reinforcement with regards your negative view of Hamilton . Especially as his point was that the truth is usually somewhere in the middle. Those who can't see beyond the end of their nose belong in this forum.

Sorry that's what he said, not what he really thinks, if the timing of his quote is anything to go by. That was my point, the timing was too hasty. One swallow doesn't make a summer and all that.

[Guizotia]

Nope, it's an opinion.

Likewise, it doesn't take an expert to figure out that Stirling is clearly envy of Michael.

Michael Spence (on the left)?



He is taller, and younger!

[yoyogetfunky]

You obviously don't know much about Sir Stirling Moss, do you? I would suggest that you read up a bit more on the man before making unsubstantiated claims about his 'envy' of Schumacher or that he is 'bitter' about not having won the WDC. Before you start making uninformed and juvenile statements, you need to learn a bit more about the past.

No, the one with Schumacher envy is Stewart.;)

The thing with these quotes is they can backfire, and also their opinion changes every few months. One moment Hamilton is the greatest, another moment he's lost it. Vettel needs to change teams to prove himself but when Hamilton does it, its a big mistake. Im not often in agreement with Hamilton but here in this case he has a point. They dont know what they are talking about.

[Longtimefan]

Why is it, EVERY time I come to like Lewis, he says or does something which gets my back up?

I'm sorry but he could have worded that a lot better, it comes across as arrogance and he should have respect for the oldies, these guys were MEN and raced when F1 was often lethal, losing 2-3-4 friends a seaon, not the cottonwool soft and supersafe drivers of today. 3 drips of rain and the SC comes out.

[pingu666]

actually what the full quote was fine imo, selective quoting makes it sound worse than it was

[Bartonz20let]

Why is it, EVERY time I come to like Lewis, he says or does something which gets my back up?

I'm sorry but he could have worded that a lot better, it comes across as arrogance and he should have respect for the oldies, these guys were MEN and raced when F1 was often lethal, losing 2-3-4 friends a seaon, not the cottonwool soft and supersafe drivers of today. 3 drips of rain and the SC comes out.

Sold on the headline then?

[Bartonz20let]

http://www.voice-onl...ilton-button-it

Easily done isn't it, this mis representation thing?

Edited by Bartonz20let, 21 March 2013 - 22:42.

[akshay380]

Sold on the headline then?

Appears to be. Please read the complete article friend.

[P123]

Sorry that's what he said, not what he really thinks, if the timing of his quote is anything to go by. That was my point, the timing was too hasty. One swallow doesn't make a summer and all that.

Must have been in a different article than the one being discussed here:

"It's been everyone, particularly all the ex-drivers commenting that it was the worst decision ever. They said: 'He's going to finish nowhere, they're going to be nowhere.' And then they contradicted themselves, going the other way.

"They don't know what they're talking about. They're either this way or that, when the truth is the bit in the middle."

[Longtimefan]

Appears to be. Please read the complete article friend.

I did read it all, I stand by my comments.