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Mercedes and Red Bull want 2012 tyres back


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#51 fololo

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:09

What a bunch of sore losers. Winning the double three times in a row and start whining after one race where they faced some problems. Massive :down:

Benoit from Blick:



dont worry, every team has first to agree.


And Lotus Renault wont agree , so hahah RBR :down:

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#52 Sin

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:11

dont worry, every team has first to agree.


And Lotus Renault wont agree , so hahah RBR :down:


dude you are so annoying....

that is exactly the way of talking that destroys intelligent discussion... you can state your opinion without putting any team down...

the same goes to many people out there.... how about neutral discussion?

Edited by Sin, 23 March 2013 - 12:14.


#53 F.M.

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:16

So basically Red Bull would have to put their Monza DF spec on in order to go slow enough through the corners to keep the tires alive?

#54 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:16

Teams get punished for bulding faster cars. This is what F1 is all about.

RBR can run less wing and be fast on straight aways instead?

#55 Mc_Silver

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:18

Lets go back to Goodyear Eagles.


:up:

#56 peroa

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:18

I didn't say probable. Just that there are other factors that can come into play, and just because it didn't happen last year doesn't mean it can never happen. I have no idea if they have changed the exhaust layout, but they have had problems in that area in the past.

Well, various teams had delamination issues from what I saw in FP's, front and rear.
I just hope it's gonna be bone dry and insanely hot so that we can have a proper farce.

Edited by peroa, 23 March 2013 - 12:19.


#57 Sin

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:19

The Red Bull is a car that doesn't have the highest straight line speed, they were designed for going quick through corners, but the tyres destroy that...

no matter who is at front and who is not I think tho that.... the tyres are just degrading TOO MUCH... I want to see all cars race at limit and not just a picked few

#58 JRizzle86

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:20

It's the same for everyone i see no reason why they should feel the need to complain. They need to deal with the tyres they have now.

#59 F.M.

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:20

dude you are so annoying....

that is exactly the way of talking that destroys intelligent discussion... you can state your opinion without putting any team down...

the same goes to many people out there.... how about neutral discussion?

On a side note: That every team has to agree is also the way to destroy intelligent decisions. Like in real life there is always one moron who doesn't get it or just likes to be a deal breaker.

Not saying that the tires should be changed though. But if true that they simply can't handle the (cornering) forces produced by the amount of DF Red Bull has, something has to be done. Whether or not all teams think so. You can't tell a team "Yeah, we're sorry, but your car is a tad too fast for our tires to cope with. So if you could just drive a little slower, that would be mighty appreciated."

Edited by F.M., 23 March 2013 - 12:21.


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#60 HoldenRT

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:21

The 'sore losers' thing goes both ways.. because there seems to be a lot of bitterness towards Redbull for their success.

Redbull's car is fine because when they are all on inters, it's the same as usual. The inters haven't been changed from last season as far as I know.

I don't know how Pirelli should fix it because I like the softer tyres in that it forces more stops. 1 stop races are boring and predictable..

However, it's possible to build durable softer tyres and it seems Pirelli haven't done that. And it seems it has nothing to do with temperatures or graining. It shouldn't be that you are penalised for having more downforce. Maybe a little bit.. but it shouldn't be an overriding factor that destroys your race. Too much downforce should mean too much drag and (possible) too much tyre wear.. but lots of downforce usually helps protect a tyre.

And what sounds like is happening.. is they can't load up the tyres in fast corners (which is what F1 aerodynamics is all about) because they are so fragile. Which means that all teams run through those corners at slower speeds on purpose to protect the tyre.. which is just silly.

A part of it should be on the teams, to adapt the car around the tyre.. but these tyres are pretty extreme and even Lotus seem to be suffering from the problem.

I don't think they should revert to 2012 tyres, I just think they should fix the 'fast corners' problem.. not drastic changes.. just a few tweaks.

I already don't like how much the driver cruise around in races with full tanks of fuel but tyres like this don't make it any easier.

We were led to believe it was all about the graining but it seems it's a seperate issue from graining.



#61 hello86

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:22

It's the same for everyone i see no reason why they should feel the need to complain. They need to deal with the tyres they have now.


:up:

It´s like if Lotus or some other team would have protested last year that the tyres are lasting too long for them so Pirelli should change them.

Edited by hello86, 23 March 2013 - 12:24.


#62 JeanClaude

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:28

dude you are so annoying....

that is exactly the way of talking that destroys intelligent discussion... you can state your opinion without putting any team down...

the same goes to many people out there.... how about neutral discussion?

Try the ignore function Sin that works fine for annoying posters  ;)

My take on it is that both Red Bull and Mercedes are just throwing some weight around to influence FIA & Pirelli to make (small) adjustments to the tyres or tyre choice for races later in the year

Especially the safety argument is something that FIA will be susceptible to
Can't blame them for trying really

JC

#63 KiloWatt

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:32

Well, I certainly am biased and would support the introduction of yogurt tyres if it made Mercedes faster.

But come on, tyres delaminating left right and centre is a wee bit more concrete reason to change something than just 'they're sore losers'. I dare say that if Lotus does not agree with it, it's because they're scared they're gonna lose their competitive advantage, rather than the others trying to get one.

Edit:
And furthermore, if it is true (and I'm not saying it is), that they tyres degrade faster if a car has more downforce, then that tyre does not belong in any form of motorsport.

Edited by KiloWatt, 23 March 2013 - 12:35.


#64 rijole1

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:33

What a bunch of sore losers. Winning the double three times in a row and start whining after one race where they faced some problems. Massive :down:

Benoit from Blick:

Exactly. Really poor loosers. And we have had only one race. I mean, really, can these people at least try to fix it before they behave like angry spoiled kids??
Like - "I didn't win - change the rules!!!!!" OMG
It's the same thing when Montezemolo is whining once or twice every year, about aerodynamics being too important, because Red Bull is best at it

If I understand it right a car is made of several components which must be in harmony.
A great team creates the fastest car inside the actual regulations.
The tyres are same for everyone. Just adjust your motor and aerodynamics around it.
The car first over finish line wins. It's not about being fastest car over 4 laps.


#65 JensonWDC

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:35

:up:

It´s like if Lotus or some other team would have protested last year that the tyres are lasting too long for them so Pirelli should change them.


that´s not the point imo. high degradation is one thing, tyres falling apart with huge pieces breaking away of the tyres surface after 10-15 laps is another.

Edited by JensonWDC, 23 March 2013 - 12:35.


#66 peroa

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:39

that´s not the point imo. high degradation is one thing, tyres falling apart with huge pieces breaking away of the tyres surface after 10-15 laps is another.

Yep, for the last two years we had the "cliff", this year they tyres just fall apart.
I don't think that's very funny at 300km/h.

#67 Jovanotti

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:39

Designing a car with good tyre management is as much an engineering skill as it is to build a car with more downforce than the opponents. If the former is more important than the latter, just do it! Adapting to circumstances (which are the same for everybody btw), that's also F1!

About tyres failing: please remind me, was there any dangerous situation during testing or during the Australian GP that was related to tyres falling apart?

Edited by Jovanotti, 23 March 2013 - 12:43.


#68 akshay380

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:39

Exactly. Really poor loosers. And we have had only one race. I mean, really, can these people at least try to fix it before they behave like angry spoiled kids??
Like - "I didn't win - change the rules!!!!!" OMG
It's the same thing when Montezemolo is whining once or twice every year, about aerodynamics being too important, because Red Bull is best at it

If I understand it right a car is made of several components which must be in harmony.
A great team creates the fastest car inside the actual regulations.
The tyres are same for everyone. Just adjust your motor and aerodynamics around it.
The car first over finish line wins. It's not about being fastest car over 4 laps.

Its just that teams get just a days running in Brazil on 2012 cars and then tht get it directly during winter tests. More of a lottery IMO.

#69 F.M.

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:40

Exactly. Really poor loosers. And we have had only one race. I mean, really, can these people at least try to fix it before they behave like angry spoiled kids??
Like - "I didn't win - change the rules!!!!!" OMG
It's the same thing when Montezemolo is whining once or twice every year, about aerodynamics being too important, because Red Bull is best at it

If I understand it right a car is made of several components which must be in harmony.
A great team creates the fastest car inside the actual regulations.
The tyres are same for everyone. Just adjust your motor and aerodynamics around it.
The car first over finish line wins. It's not about being fastest car over 4 laps.

Don't think you exactly get the point made. It's not about degradation, but lamination due to the tires simply not able to carry the loads that are introduced to them in corners.

It would be the same as if all teams had to use the same suspension, but under a certain load (downforce level) this suspension would fail. In F1 it's not acceptable to tell teams they have too much downforce for a component to actually function.

I'm not saying that this is exactly what is going on, but IF it is what's going on, the 'whining' is completely justified.

#70 Nobody

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:42

It's the same for everyone i see no reason why they should feel the need to complain. They need to deal with the tyres they have now.


+1

#71 Sin

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:46

About tyres failing: please remind me, was there any dangerous situation during testing or during the Australian GP that was related to tyres falling apart?



Today... don't remember if it was Practice or Qualifying but Hamiltons tyre was pretty much ... broken totally a whole huge piece was missing

#72 Hanzo

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:46

It is not like random sets of tyres falling down and exploding in a russian roulette kind of thing for the teams. They all get the same tyres so no reason to change them in the middle of the season only because it does not benefit your team.
But nothing wrong with trying, of course.

Edited by Hanzo, 23 March 2013 - 12:50.


#73 F.M.

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:48

About tyres failing: please remind me, was there any dangerous situation during testing or during the Australian GP that was related to tyres falling apart?

Completely different conditions. Winter testing was simply too cold to draw any conclusion from the tires and their behaviour. Melbourne doesn't have any high speed corners.

Sepang is the first real test for these tyres. Very hot and very high speed corners. Result seems to be that the construction of the tires is failing this test.

Edited by F.M., 23 March 2013 - 12:49.


#74 F.M.

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:51

It is not like random sets of tyres falling down and exploding in a russian roulette kind of thing for the teams. They all get the same tires so no reason to change them in the middle of the season only because it does not benefit your team.

That Russian roulette kind of thing would be the more fair situation, since every team has the same chance of getting them and suffering from them and it balances out over the course of the season. Now it's (supposed to be) the cars that produce so much downforce that the tires just fall short of doing what they are supposed to be doing.

Edited by F.M., 23 March 2013 - 12:54.


#75 KiloWatt

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:51

It is not like random sets of tyres falling down and exploding in a russian roulette kind of thing for the teams. They all get the same tires so no reason to change them in the middle of the season only because it does not benefit your team.


Not the point. It's not only benefit any team. It's because tyres that can't handle downforce doesn't belong in any form of motorsport.

Now this is all well within the realm of speculation. IF, this is the problem. If the merc is just hard on it's tyres, well as much as it pains me, it's their own fault. But I say again, if the tyres cant handle downforce, well then that's just not cricket.

That's what many people seem to not want to understand (with all due respect).

#76 F.M.

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:53

Not the point. It's not only benefit any team. It's because tyres that can't handle downforce doesn't belong in any form of motorsport.

Now this is all well within the realm of speculation. IF, this is the problem. If the merc is just hard on it's tyres, well as much as it pains me, it's their own fault. But I say again, if the tyres cant handle downforce, well then that's just not cricket.

That's what many people seem to not want to understand (with all due respect).

this :)

#77 JeanClaude

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:54

They all get the same tyres so no reason to change them in the middle of the season only because it does not benefit your team.
But nothing wrong with trying, of course.

Yes but tyres are made in batches for specific races that's why even unused tyres (that have to be returned to Pirelli) are destroyed.
So if several teams make a lot of noise small tweaks can be easily made to the tyres for races later in the season.

JC

#78 sharo

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:58

This somehow reminds me of the 2005 Indy race and Michelin tyres which couldn't endure on the reworked surface. But back then we had a full fledged tyre war. Now it seems a single supplier is fighting with himself and with the teams to maintain a dominating position over the whole series which a supplier should never be.

#79 nectar

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:00

You have it upside-down.



With all due respect, i disagree.

RB9 eats tyres, while other cars noticeably Lotus, Force India are gentle to their tyres.

All winter long and before Melbourne race day also, some drivers (Vettle, Webber, Hamilton, etc...) kept saying "I wonder how these tyres are going to behave" and worried about how long these tyres are gonna last. Making these comments makes people think the problem must be the tyres. However that's not case, they are just wondering how these tyres are going to behave on THEIR CARs, because they already got the feeling that it's not going to be good on their car based on their car's feature. Melbourne just proved their suspicion. And now they are not going to sit quietly are they?

So basically Red Bull along with some teams failed in tire department, while few others succeeded. And this is not a tyre lottery in any sense. Because Melbourne is not the first time they open the tyre box and find these tyres- they've got Brazil and all winter long to figure it out.

Red Bull and Mercedes so actively lobbying Pirelli (and using the medias) shows that they have something fundamental in their car not working good with these 2013 tyres, and to re-design a quick car with these tyres working would cost too much with 2014 on the same hand, wouldn't it?

So this is could be seen as their cost-saving strategy. Nothing wrong just not nice to see.


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#80 rijole1

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:00

Don't think you exactly get the point made. It's not about degradation, but lamination due to the tires simply not able to carry the loads that are introduced to them in corners.

It would be the same as if all teams had to use the same suspension, but under a certain load (downforce level) this suspension would fail. In F1 it's not acceptable to tell teams they have too much downforce for a component to actually function.

I'm not saying that this is exactly what is going on, but IF it is what's going on, the 'whining' is completely justified.

Well, there are many points I do not get.
But all this "the tyres may be dangerous" thing is just a way to try to get FIA change the rules.
So that our crying kids can win again with no need to rethink and change their car.
I just know that in Melbourne, there were teams that could manage the tyres. Lotus of course, but Ferrari and Force India were not bad.
And I guess, Ferrari is going to fix it soon - and they are not whining like Mercedes and Red Bull.

It was the same last year, many of the teams had problems, but fixed it later in the season.
And as somebody said - Lotus could have start whining in for example in China 2012 when Kimi's tyres went totally.
Did we hear Lotus complaining about dangerous tyres? No. They accepted their weakness and started to work with the car.

#81 Skinnyguy

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:01

This is so boring, we´ve gone twice through this cycle: In preseason tyres last very little, everyone overreacts, in the first races it´s much better and reasonable strategies are used, and then teams get good with experience and we get even less stops as season goes on.

I predict 1 stop vs 2 stop races in 2-3 months. And I´m not talking about Pirelli changes anything, I´m talking about teams doing their job better. So shut up and keep working.

#82 Black Widow

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:02

Perelli should make tyres to adapt to all cars.

Not make all cars adapt to Perelli.

De-lamination should not acceptable at any point of time.




#83 rijole1

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:03

It is not like random sets of tyres falling down and exploding in a russian roulette kind of thing for the teams. They all get the same tyres so no reason to change them in the middle of the season only because it does not benefit your team.
But nothing wrong with trying, of course.

:up: :up: This

#84 hello86

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:03

This is so boring, we´ve gone twice through this cycle: In preseason tyres last very little, everyone overreacts, in the first races it´s much better and reasonable strategies are used, and then teams get good with experience and we get even less stops as season goes on.

I predict 1 stop vs 2 stop races in 2-3 months. And I´m not talking about Pirelli changes anything, I´m talking about teams doing their job better. So shut up and keep working.


:up:

#85 nectar

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:06

And on a side note, JB after yesterday's practice said to espn "“I don't think there's a lot of degradation here, I think we're not going to see much degradation in the race at all so it's definitely not an issue that we have here like we had in the first race." http://www.espn.co.u...ory/103810.html

Edited by nectar, 23 March 2013 - 13:08.


#86 KiloWatt

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:06

Well, there are many points I do not get.
But all this "the tyres may be dangerous" thing is just a way to try to get FIA change the rules.
So that our crying kids can win again with no need to rethink and change their car.
I just know that in Melbourne, there were teams that could manage the tyres. Lotus of course, but Ferrari and Force India were not bad.
And I guess, Ferrari is going to fix it soon - and they are not whining like Mercedes and Red Bull.

It was the same last year, many of the teams had problems, but fixed it later in the season.
And as somebody said - Lotus could have start whining in for example in China 2012 when Kimi's tyres went totally.
Did we hear Lotus complaining about dangerous tyres? No. They accepted their weakness and started to work with the car.


Ok, just so we're clear on this. You condone tyres that doesn't react well to more downforce? In Formula One?

#87 ZooL

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:08

Didn't AMUS report Pirelli are changing the tyre for China? I think there is a genuine problem with the product when tyre delaminates. It means the product is not fit for purpose i.e. motor racing.

If a car can reach higher geforce on a high speed turn and therefore put more load through the tyre and the tyre delaminates what is the point of failure?

a) the car?
b) the tyre?

It would be interesting to understand why some here would say its a) cars fault.

#88 rolf123

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:11

This is smokes and mirrors from Red (full of) Bull. As the Live Autosport crew will know, I am constantly hoping for Vettel's tyre to delaminate and, despite that, it only ever happened once! It is not going to happen, no matter how much Red Bull cry on "safety" grounds.

#89 Skinnyguy

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:11

If a car can reach higher geforce on a high speed turn and therefore put more load through the tyre and the tyre delaminates what is the point of failure?

a) the car?
b) the tyre?

It would be interesting to understand why some here would say its a) cars fault.


Problem is that it´s not the case, as we´re on a 22 cars series with 18 of them having roughly the same level of downforce, and most of them are perfectly OK.

That´s the real scenario.

#90 peroa

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:12

Didn't AMUS report Pirelli are changing the tyre for China? I think there is a genuine problem with the product when tyre delaminates. It means the product is not fit for purpose i.e. motor racing.

If a car can reach higher geforce on a high speed turn and therefore put more load through the tyre and the tyre delaminates what is the point of failure?

a) the car?
b) the tyre?

It would be interesting to understand why some here would say its a) cars fault.

Well, in 2005 they happily said tyre.

#91 DanardiF1

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:14

It seems to me that the current tyres don't have anything particularly wrong with them other than not having enough rubber on the tyre itself. I was quite worried seeing Hamilton in practice down to the canvas of his tyre after a short run and no major mishaps, same for Sergio Perez after one lockup.

I understand Pirelli's thinking, that essentially the better cars on their tyres will actually have more tyre left than the others, but when drivers are getting down to the canvas of the tyre with seemingly little effort, I think it starts to become a safety issue that is more important to address than to disregard on 'entertainment' grounds.

Pirelli, just put more rubber on the tyre. The compounds aren't bad (think about how well the medium tyre did in Aus) but the construction is.

#92 One

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:15

Well I actually want 1978 tires back. Those ones with huge rear tires. Rakes of the car will be incredible if it were to be fit on the current car, and the diffuser will be completely disabled. What a great idea.

Red Bull and Mercedes are the whinner. Above all think that they can win if they change tires..


Losers

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Edited by One, 23 March 2013 - 13:16.


#93 Pingguest

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:15

As predicted before the introduction of standardized tyres, they have become politicized.

#94 aray

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:15

if it jeopardise safety for all cars,then i agree...but if some cars are suffering from it due to it's design then it is their problem to solve the issue and still be fastest...

#95 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:18

I'm surpised by Mercedes. They couldn't make the tyres work in 2012...or 2011...or 2010....or 2008...or 2007 (as Honda).....Hmmmmmm. Maybe they understand them better now and can get them to last a few laps longer before destroying them?

#96 BoschKurve

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:18

Stop the press: Newey car hard on a particular mechanical component. More at 11...


:up:

Stable regulations have done a lot to hide this.

#97 rijole1

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:22

Its just that teams get just a days running in Brazil on 2012 cars and then tht get it directly during winter tests. More of a lottery IMO.

Agree totally, lack of testing is totally stupid and that maybe is what FIA should change to next season.

But it's the same for everyone. It means teams that do not get it right directly, must change the car in the beginning of the season.
And as it looks like now, Red Bull are totally traumatised about that they have a bigger problem. Too used to being the best, maybe?
Maybe they think they can't do wrong - the problem must be somewhere else, outside the team.
That's one of the biggest dangers against the creative spirit in a team, I think.

I'm really dissapointed on Red Bulls behaviour. :mad:
And It hurts even more because I like the team  ;) Or used to...

About Mercedes - they have always been bad on tires, but I suppose they hang on this because they are getting desperate...
The board is demanding results and Hamilton and all the new personel hasn't been cheap to buy in the team.


#98 ZooL

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:27

This is smokes and mirrors from Red (full of) Bull. As the Live Autosport crew will know, I am constantly hoping for Vettel's tyre to delaminate and, despite that, it only ever happened once! It is not going to happen, no matter how much Red Bull cry on "safety" grounds.



Problem is that it´s not the case, as we´re on a 22 cars series with 18 of them having roughly the same level of downforce, and most of them are perfectly OK.

That´s the real scenario.

Hamilton's tyre delaminated in FP3 after 11 laps. Big chunk missing.

RBR and Mercedes should do what Briatore did back in 2005 which was put the tyres on display at the front of the garage for the world to see how bad they were.

Edited by ZooL, 23 March 2013 - 13:28.


#99 P123

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:28

Mercedes want to revert to the tyres they couldn't get to work at all. Seems logical.  ;)

We'll be back to 1 and 2 stop races soon enough, with Red Bull again being the best car on it's tyres. All will be forgotten and this will just be yet more speculative noise.

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#100 Peter Perfect

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:33

if it jeopardise safety for all cars,then i agree...but if some cars are suffering from it due to it's design then it is their problem to solve the issue and still be fastest...

:up: