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Mercedes and Red Bull want 2012 tyres back


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#101 Skinnyguy

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:34

Hamilton's tyre delaminated in FP3 after 11 laps. Big chunk missing.


That´s a shame, but the same tyre didn´t delaminate in other cars after going faster around the racetrack. So you know where the problem is.

RBR and Mercedes should do what Briatore did back in 2005 which was put the tyres on display at the front of the garage for the world to see how bad they were.


Yes, the benefit would be huge for them. :up: Much better than working out of your own problems.

PS: That was in Hockenheim 2003, and Renault themselves picked a tyre too soft for the conditions. And to be fair both 2003 and 2005 Michelin were excellent tyres, so it only tells once again how ridiculous Flavio was.

Edited by Skinnyguy, 23 March 2013 - 13:35.


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#102 MortenF1

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:36

With all due respect, i disagree.

RB9 eats tyres, while other cars noticeably Lotus, Force India are gentle to their tyres.

All winter long and before Melbourne race day also, some drivers (Vettle, Webber, Hamilton, etc...) kept saying "I wonder how these tyres are going to behave" and worried about how long these tyres are gonna last. Making these comments makes people think the problem must be the tyres. However that's not case, they are just wondering how these tyres are going to behave on THEIR CARs, because they already got the feeling that it's not going to be good on their car based on their car's feature. Melbourne just proved their suspicion. And now they are not going to sit quietly are they?

So basically Red Bull along with some teams failed in tire department, while few others succeeded. And this is not a tyre lottery in any sense. Because Melbourne is not the first time they open the tyre box and find these tyres- they've got Brazil and all winter long to figure it out.

Red Bull and Mercedes so actively lobbying Pirelli (and using the medias) shows that they have something fundamental in their car not working good with these 2013 tyres, and to re-design a quick car with these tyres working would cost too much with 2014 on the same hand, wouldn't it?

So this is could be seen as their cost-saving strategy. Nothing wrong just not nice to see.


This isn't about wear, and being gentle or not on the tires. This is about a structural weakness in the tyre construction.

#103 Group B

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:36

Finally it seems someone has given their opinion in public, to put a bit of pressure on Pirelli. The tires are joke, but it now turns out they can't take the load from high-speed sweepers. (Imagine if Turkey with T8 was on the calendar. We'd have had US GP 2005 all over, but with NO cars starting.)

I saw Hembery and two other Pirelli guys in frantic conversation today.........

Yep,

So long as no one gets hurt I'd like to see some spectacular tyre failures during the race, really embarressing stuff for Pirelli and that **** Hembery. I'm utterly sick of the way they continually come across as if they own F1, are more important than cars, teams, drivers or fans, and can do what the hell they like.

#104 Arry2k

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:36

if it jeopardise safety for all cars,then i agree...but if some cars are suffering from it due to it's design then it is their problem to solve the issue and still be fastest...

:up:

#105 SunnyENTP

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:39

So people dont want to see the car that can extract its best performance but rather see a car that can extract a tyres best performance. Welcome to the new F1 fans :drunk:

#106 Sin

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:42

So people dont want to see the car that can extract its best performance but rather see a car that can extract a tyres best performance. Welcome to the new F1 fans :drunk:


well I guess most people would say the complete opposite if it was Ferrari that was having problems not RB....


#107 MortenF1

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:42

Yep,

So long as no one gets hurt I'd like to see some spectacular tyre failures during the race, really embarressing stuff for Pirelli and that **** Hembery. I'm utterly sick of the way they continually come across as if they own F1, are more important than cars, teams, drivers or fans, and can do what the hell they like.


I totally agree. I hope for serious delamination and treads flapping about! Maybe then they'll wake up to this.

#108 DanardiF1

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:42

So people dont want to see the car that can extract its best performance but rather see a car that can extract a tyres best performance. Welcome to the new F1 fans :drunk:


Using the tyres properly IS extracting the car's best performance. It is performing to the maximum the car can do in racing conditions, in the same way the drivers of the 80's turbo cars couldn't run at full turbo boost in race conditions.

Oh and they had to manage the tyres as well as the fuel, engine and everything else.

#109 Peter Perfect

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:43

So people dont want to see the car that can extract its best performance but rather see a car that can extract a tyres best performance. Welcome to the new F1 fans :drunk:

Like it or not tyres are, and always have been, a core part of every car package. Show me a team who didn't try to get the best out of the tyres.

Maybe you should be watching a spec series?

#110 ZooL

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:43

That´s a shame, but the same tyre didn´t delaminate in other cars after going faster around the racetrack. So you know where the problem is.

I don't think thats how the world works. If a tyre delaminates you have to investigate because its a structural failure, and all cars are setup to within parameters supplied by Pirelli. (Remember last year they made tighter the toe/camber parameter guidelines midseason).

It delaminated on RBR too, and apparently Lotus Renault had problems also.

Anyway if AMuS is right, its a moot point because Pirelli would have accepted there is a product fault as AMuS says tyre will change for next race in China.

#111 sharo

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:44

Pirelli have once more reshuffled the cards so that until the middle of the seasons teams struggle to adapt to the tyres and there's no clearly defined leader. Same as previous years.
The problem is if they have gone too far in their game to become dangerous for racing.

Edited by sharo, 23 March 2013 - 13:45.


#112 Sin

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:44

Sorry Michael Schumacher said it 2012.... but with these tyres you can't race at the limit... and I believe someone like Schumacher, who has raced on different kind of tyres... I don't like the way it is... seemed fairer in the early 2000s

#113 toxicfusion

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:46

Sorry Michael Schumacher said it 2012.... but with these tyres you can't race at the limit... and I believe someone like Schumacher, who has raced on different kind of tyres... I don't like the way it is... seemed fairer in the early 2000s


with two tyre manufacturers and very rarely did both companies tyres work as well as the other at a race weekend.

#114 Sin

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:48

with two tyre manufacturers and very rarely did both companies tyres work as well as the other at a race weekend.


yes I liked it ... seemed fairer then o.o.... and I wasn't fan of anyone of the top teams... but HHF :o... at least the tyres weren't made out of cheese

#115 aray

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:50

So people dont want to see the car that can extract its best performance but rather see a car that can extract a tyres best performance. Welcome to the new F1 fans :drunk:

in case you forgot,tyre is a part of the car too....
chasis and some integral parts are built by the teams,some components are provided by their respective partners,engines are provided by engine manufacturers,mapping is done by FIA,McLaren gives ECU( ;) )and Perrelli provides tyres....these all make a car... :wave:

#116 DanardiF1

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:50

Sorry Michael Schumacher said it 2012.... but with these tyres you can't race at the limit... and I believe someone like Schumacher, who has raced on different kind of tyres... I don't like the way it is... seemed fairer in the early 2000s


Michael had things rather easy for him in the early 2000's (as did most of the grid then) as he enjoyed Bridgestone tyres that were designed specifically for him and his car. Things were not as fair in the early 2000's simply because the tyre war meant that every team had different tyres. There was nothing to manage as any tyre problems encountered were entirely Bridgestone/Michelin's responsibility. They had to produce a tyre to work with that car.

Now you get a tyre that is given to every team with the brief being 'get these to work for you and you'll win'. Seems much fairer doesn't it?

#117 RaikkonenZn

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:53

While they're at it they should bring back the 80's era Turbo engines and early to mid 2000s downforce levels and we're good to go! Oh and also 12 lap quali shootout!

#118 Sin

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:53

Michael had things rather easy for him in the early 2000's (as did most of the grid then) as he enjoyed Bridgestone tyres that were designed specifically for him and his car. Things were not as fair in the early 2000's simply because the tyre war meant that every team had different tyres. There was nothing to manage as any tyre problems encountered were entirely Bridgestone/Michelin's responsibility. They had to produce a tyre to work with that car.

Now you get a tyre that is given to every team with the brief being 'get these to work for you and you'll win'. Seems much fairer doesn't it?


doesn't tyres are just another component of the car not the other way round, the car is not a component of the tyre.... they would change manufacturers if other components suck.... they should allow the same for tyres.... every team picks their own manufacturer... to make tyres that fit their cars as good as possible... that would be the fairest....

just frustrating to see tyres deciding races

Edited by Sin, 23 March 2013 - 13:54.


#119 jjcale

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:54

So I was right!!

Redbull did in fact put too much downforce on their car this year...

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#120 SpaMaster

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:56

Won't happen. Over Lotus' dead body. Only a genuine safety problem can cause any change. Even then Pirelli would do something to solve any delamination problem if it really is indeed true. But this won't really change the nature of the tyres and you can forget about bringing the 2013 tyres back. Just wishful thinking.

Red Bull seems to be making a lot of noise about this. Looks like they are really in some big problem. Lotus and Ferrari seem to be better off.

#121 DanardiF1

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:57

doesn't tyres are just another component of the car not the other way round, the car is not a component of the tyre.... they would change manufacturers if other components suck.... they should allow the same for tyres.... every team picks their own manufacturer... to make tyres that fit their cars as good as possible... that would be the fairest....

just frustrating to see tyres deciding races


Of course the tyre is a part of the car, so the designers should account for that when they design their cars. Every other part on the car is designed to some degree of compromise, and looking after the tyres is just another element of that.

#122 Kelateboy

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:59

Didn't AMUS report Pirelli are changing the tyre for China? I think there is a genuine problem with the product when tyre delaminates. It means the product is not fit for purpose i.e. motor racing.

Until we hear something official from Pirelli, I would take AMUS reporting with a grain of salt.




#123 DanardiF1

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:59

doesn't tyres are just another component of the car not the other way round, the car is not a component of the tyre.... they would change manufacturers if other components suck.... they should allow the same for tyres.... every team picks their own manufacturer... to make tyres that fit their cars as good as possible... that would be the fairest....

just frustrating to see tyres deciding races


Ha! Tyres decided races back in 2000-2006 even more than they do now.

#124 ZooL

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:59

What is the technical background for the rubber battle? The Pirelli tires have the peculiarity that they rest mainly on the inside of the tread. Reportedly, only 40 percent of the contact area can be used. Pirelli was prevented by the new carcasses. The shoulder is square, the steep flanks. This should clear the tread rest better. If it does not, however, claim some Formula 1 engineers.

The one-sided load heats the inner ring on the tire shoulder. Is the first time this season in steel. The heat radiates from the rubber. In the curve, it pushes the hot rubber layer from the inside to the outside. She peels off. The softer rubber compounds exacerbate the problem.

Cars that generate downforce demand from the tire during braking and cornering more.

So a Pirelli design flaw means only 40% of the contact patch is used.
Pirelli are also trying something new with steel ring.

I think Pirelli have got it seriously wrong. Winter testing was a shocker, but they deferred blame to the cold temperature. Australia was cool and has no high speed corners. The problems will probably show themselves more tomorrow. I think Merc/RBR are suggesting 2012 tyres because its the quickest resolution if indeed the Pirelli 2013 has a design flaw thats not a quick fix, e.g. steel ring idea not working.

#125 nectar

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:59

This isn't about wear, and being gentle or not on the tires. This is about a structural weakness in the tyre construction.



I see differently; but I'm going to leave it here. no one needs argument that's without actual data and experience supporting it.

All I'm saying is if this is not a safety issue they should suck it up. Who knows? most possibly Red Bull'll come out on top again soon enough



#126 LiJu914

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 14:01

Of course the tyre is a part of the car, so the designers should account for that when they design their cars. Every other part on the car is designed to some degree of compromise, and looking after the tyres is just another element of that.


If in this case "compromise" means, driving deliberately slower than you could, it´s just not good racing (no matter how awesome it might be for "the show").

Edited by LiJu914, 23 March 2013 - 14:01.


#127 akshay380

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 14:04

LOL! at this pirelli tire race. Never heard any business operating under the restrictions of a cheese supplier!

#128 LiJu914

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 14:04

Ha! Tyres decided races back in 2000-2006 even more than they do now.


At least they did that, because they were designed for good performance.

Now the opposite seems to be the case.

#129 BlackGold

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 14:04

Of course the tyre is a part of the car, so the designers should account for that when they design their cars. Every other part on the car is designed to some degree of compromise, and looking after the tyres is just another element of that.

How should they account for that part, if they have no or just a few data about the new tyre generation to work with!? Its pure gamble...

#130 rijole1

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 14:07

With all due respect, i disagree.

RB9 eats tyres, while other cars noticeably Lotus, Force India are gentle to their tyres.

All winter long and before Melbourne race day also, some drivers (Vettle, Webber, Hamilton, etc...) kept saying "I wonder how these tyres are going to behave" and worried about how long these tyres are gonna last. Making these comments makes people think the problem must be the tyres. However that's not case, they are just wondering how these tyres are going to behave on THEIR CARs, because they already got the feeling that it's not going to be good on their car based on their car's feature. Melbourne just proved their suspicion. And now they are not going to sit quietly are they?

So basically Red Bull along with some teams failed in tire department, while few others succeeded. And this is not a tyre lottery in any sense. Because Melbourne is not the first time they open the tyre box and find these tyres- they've got Brazil and all winter long to figure it out.

Red Bull and Mercedes so actively lobbying Pirelli (and using the medias) shows that they have something fundamental in their car not working good with these 2013 tyres, and to re-design a quick car with these tyres working would cost too much with 2014 on the same hand, wouldn't it?

So this is could be seen as their cost-saving strategy. Nothing wrong just not nice to see.

:up: Exactly, cost-saving strategy indeed. I'm so tired on this politics, it really stinks.
Can we get, at least, a little bit more fair play in F1? (Sorry, forget that - stupid question)
And I mean - these are two rich teams - wonder how the poorer teams quietly cope with their mistakes? Maybe they try to work harder?



#131 DanardiF1

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 14:07

What does everybody want then? Because Bridgestone's tyres were fantastic but ultimately their pursuit of ultimate tyre performance affected the quality of the overall racing. Pirelli have done exactly what was asked of them, and the only thing I'd change is the amount of rubber on the tyre itself. Put more rubber on it and you wouldn't get through to the canvas without seriously punishing them.

This isn't an issue affecting every car... it's only a few, and thus it's their responsibility to look for a fix.

#132 ANF

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 14:08

Hamilton's tyre delaminated in FP3 after 11 laps. Big chunk missing.

Didn't Max Chilton come into the pits yesterday with a rear tyre looking just like that?

#133 Sin

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 14:09

I like racing at the limit more... yes let them make longlasting tyres... I prefer 1 pitstop to 4 or more..... by a mile

#134 apoka

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 14:09

If higher downforce means higher deg, then RB and Merc are right in protesting against the current tyres.

(I don't really think they are only whining because they are not winning. They had P3, P5, P6 in Melbourne and now have P1, P4, P5, P6 in Q here. They might be even better on 2012 tyres, but judging from the article there are also genuine concerns.)


#135 DanardiF1

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 14:11

If higher downforce means higher deg, then RB and Merc are right in protesting against the current tyres.

(I don't really think they are only whining because they are not winning. They had P3, P5, P6 in Melbourne and now have P1, P4, P5, P6 in Q here. They might be even better on 2012 tyres, but judging from the article there are also genuine concerns.)


From the look of it, I don't think it does. Red Bull are having issues with their rear tyres because the car looks very tail happy in slow corners.

#136 Sin

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 14:12

it's not like RB and Mercedes are the only ones complaining about the tyres, the only teams I haven't heard talking negative about the tyres are Lotus, Ferrari and Force India

#137 apoka

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 14:14

Of course the tyre is a part of the car, so the designers should account for that when they design their cars. Every other part on the car is designed to some degree of compromise, and looking after the tyres is just another element of that.

That sounds reasonable, but one issue is that they design the cars before having significant experience with the tyres and another that they may need to deliberately reduce downforce to get good long run times.


#138 fololo

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 14:14

If higher downforce means higher deg, then RB and Merc are right in protesting against the current tyres.

(I don't really think they are only whining because they are not winning. They had P3, P5, P6 in Melbourne and now have P1, P4, P5, P6 in Q here. They might be even better on 2012 tyres, but judging from the article there are also genuine concerns.)

U would be an idiot to believe this crap.

Higher downforce=less degration

Vettel only said that to force pirelli to change the tyres.

But pirelli isnt stupid

#139 djparky

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 14:14

I say bring Bridgestone back



so we have dull processional races where nothing happens?? yeah great just like that dismal 10 years we had of F1

although I';m pro Pirelli they may have been a tad agressive on the tyres- but it's up to the teams to adapt to them

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#140 Nonesuch

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 14:15

It's the same for everyone i see no reason why they should feel the need to complain.

Even if the first is true, I'd say it's disputable whether or not the second necessarily follows.

Yes, the tyres are the same for all teams - but I'd have no problems with the teams drawing a line at some point where, in their opinion, the tyres become too important. So important that the teams can no longer compensate for the characteristics of these tyres with the characteristics of the car; which in effect means that they are required to build a very specific kind of car to suit tyres over which they have no control (they have to use these Pirellis!). At which point you might as well call the whole show off and run a spec-series. I'm not saying we're there yet, but I think it's good that the teams are being vigilant about the situation. They wanted less durable tyres because it was commonly held that the Bridgestone had become too hard and consistent, but the teams should equally take responsibility for preventing the situation from spiralling out of control on the opposite end of the spectrum.

#141 LiJu914

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 14:15

This isn't an issue affecting every car... it's only a few, and thus it's their responsibility to look for a fix.


So it´s their fault that the tyres don´t work, after they got basically no useful info before winter testing and also at winter testing, because temperatures were just too low for that?
And btw. It is affecting every car, just not to the same degree.

Because Bridgestone's tyres were fantastic but ultimately their pursuit of ultimate tyre performance affected the quality of the overall racing.


Pirelli does exactly the same, but not to the better....

What does everybody want then?


Drivers and cars driving on the limit. Which is often enough not the case with the Pirellis (and before someone denies that: several drivers said that in recent interviews).

Edited by LiJu914, 23 March 2013 - 14:16.


#142 Atreiu

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 14:16

I say bring Bridgestone back



#143 RealRacing

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 14:17

Bottom line is Pirelli was asked to make these tyres with the major objective being to "make races more entertaining". To the people that make decisions in F1 that was a tyre that required more pit stops because, apparently, they think more pit stops make for a better race. So, as moronic as that may seem, that's the direction they took. Shuffling the pecking order might also have been one of the main objectives, and, given how F1 works, I would not be surprised if the tyres were designed with RBR, or cars with RBR characteristics, in mind. What is of concern to me is that it seems this whole circus mentality is again starting to put safety behind other considerations. After all, it's been a long time since a serious accident happened in F1, so people start to get over confident. As someone said, how long before we have a repeat of 2005 with Michelin? Luckily, back then, they acted before a serious accident happened, but it could have been much worse. And there's also the cost issue; how are teams supposed to save or small teams even emerge if every year the variables are changed, not to mention the negative environmental aspect of these tyres, which runs contrary to what F1 is supposedly aiming for. Hopefully no one gets hurt.

#144 Group B

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 14:19

Ha! Tyres decided races back in 2000-2006 even more than they do now.

I call BS. Apart from a brief period when Michelin owned Bridgestone for a few months and made half the teams redundant the tyres played a far less crucial, and especially unpredictable, role than they do now. Tyres dropping, say, 1.5 seconds over 20 laps and responding to an element of management I can cope with, but tyres falling to bits on the outlap at 18.2°C on a cruising Ferrari, whilst lasting 3000 laps at 18.1°C on a flat-out Mercedes is random, ridiculous rubbish. Pirelli's remit was to spice up the racing, not appoint themselves kingmaker or punish fast driving.

#145 aray

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 14:20

Ha! Tyres decided races back in 2000-2006 even more than they do now.

i agree...in 2002 and 2004 Schumecher's shear dominance was as much to Bridgestone's credit as Ferrari....their combo was what brought those result..

i think current system is most fair...same tyre for everybody...

#146 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 14:20

I don't believe the new 2013 tyres should be changed to last years spec. After a few races teams will get a handle on the tyres. I do however agree with Marko(:eek: :eek:) that it's quite possible that Lotus might have a possible advantage with the team having a Pirelli test car.

#147 Sin

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 14:20

U would be an idiot to believe this crap.

Higher downforce=less degration

Vettel only said that to force pirelli to change the tyres.

But pirelli isnt stupid


If you could read german you would see that Adrian Newey said that high downforce leads to higher tyre degeneration not Vettel,

It also said that at many cars the wires of the carcasses would have shined through... Also says Lotus and Ferrari have similar problems...

says tyres are created for the type of car Lotus is since, the Pirelli test car and the Lotus car share the same DNA... ((does that mean that all cars should in the end be constructed the Lotus way? Without much variation?))

says they don't get data about the test car, like weight balance and aero balance

says the steel ring gets too hot and gives the heat to the tyres

Edited by Sin, 23 March 2013 - 14:24.


#148 rijole1

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 14:21

Of course the tyre is a part of the car, so the designers should account for that when they design their cars. Every other part on the car is designed to some degree of compromise, and looking after the tyres is just another element of that.

:up: So true

#149 rhukkas

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 14:25

Has anyone said "well everyone is in the same boat" yet? When quite clearly, as with all spec-series and part, some people have more equality than others.

#150 tkulla

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 14:25

Another tyre whining thread? Sheesh.