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Mercedes and Red Bull want 2012 tyres back


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#401 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 07:10

This is about the cold weather compound performance.
The other alleged problem is about heat buildup inside the tyre due to the steel ring which is structural.


I know, but Merc didn't feature in the compound debate so far did they? AMuS brought them up in the context of the structural debate.

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#402 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 07:15

Maybe because many are jealous and so insecure of how good RB has been? What do you think Mr?


I'd say it's simply because RB are the only ones who actually went on record. In case of Merc I don't think we have more than AMuS insisting that they are involved, but no quotes

#403 DILLIGAF

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 07:16

You gotta love how all the hate is directed towards Red Bull, and almost no one mentiones Mercedes


:up:

#404 Sin

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 07:17

I'd say it's simply because RB are the only ones who actually went on record. In case of Merc I don't think we have more than AMuS insisting that they are involved, but no quotes



that's because you do not get RTL and have Niki Lauda talking about stuff

#405 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 07:21

that's because you do not get RTL and have Niki Lauda talking about stuff


I am looking at the Lauda/Hembery interview right now, and the Lauda quotes were well publicized anyway. But that was just the usual bickering about preferences. It's something else if RB goes out and says Pirelli makes an unsafe tyre, and Merc didn't do that

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 24 March 2013 - 07:23.


#406 choyothe

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 07:29

I guess from now on, if a team makes a bad car when rules change, they should start whining for the rules to change back to how they were before, too. No respect at all for red bull any longer, frankly. They cheat (or bend and flex the rules too much, if you prefer) and whine too much for my liking.


1) The "cheating" of RB was getting publicity bc the other teams whined about it nonstop.
2) I doubt you had much respect for them before either.

You gotta love how all the hate is directed towards Red Bull, and almost no one mentiones Mercedes


Strange really, the double standard is pimp slapping these posters in the face and they still refuse to acknowledge it.

#407 Timstr11

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 07:30

BBC F1 technical analyst Gary Anderson:
"There has been a lot of talk this weekend about whether the Pirelli tyres are too soft. The teams are split about half and half, with Mercedes and Red Bull leading the group saying they are and the other half saying this is the way it is and teams have to learn to deal with it. Pirelli admits the tyres are a bit close to the mark here but add that this will be one of the most extreme tracks of the year. They'll go back and look at it but I think a bigger concern will be the delaminations suffered by Lewis Hamilton and Max Chilton. Shredding and graining is just down to the tyres being a bit soft. But when the bond between the rubber and the carcass shears, that is not a good place to be. It is a sign that the car is generating more shear force than the tyre can cope with."


Pirelli must fix this.

Edited by Timstr11, 24 March 2013 - 07:32.


#408 SunnyENTP

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 07:30

I'd say it's simply because RB are the only ones who actually went on record. In case of Merc I don't think we have more than AMuS insisting that they are involved, but no quotes



If Maurissa made a petition would many have bothered with this thread? The fact is its RB and their MAIN rival fan are the ones to come here foaming at the mouth threatening to boycott if RB get their way. RB are the victims of their own success. People hate them for being successful.

FIA helped with the lobbying of rival teams, (Ferrari and McLaren) have done everything in their power to cut the RB advantage. If they could not beat RB when it comes to speed neutralise their tyres. When Tiger Woods won the Masters at Augusta, the members did everything to nullfy this advantge of length otherwise known famously as 'Tiger Proofing'.

F1 for the past years has been about Newey Proofing.



#409 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 07:35

Pirelli must fix this.


Gary seems to simply be regurgitating what we debated the whole night here. The quote does not have any new info on whether this actually happens (and to be clear: there cannot be a question that it needs to be fixed if it does. But Newey saying so is not sufficient)

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 24 March 2013 - 07:37.


#410 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 07:36

If Maurissa made a petition would many have bothered with this thread? The fact is its RB and their MAIN rival fan are the ones to come here foaming at the mouth threatening to boycott if RB get their way. RB are the victims of their own success. People hate them for being successful.

FIA helped with the lobbying of rival teams, (Ferrari and McLaren) have done everything in their power to cut the RB advantage. If they could not beat RB when it comes to speed neutralise their tyres. When Tiger Woods won the Masters at Augusta, the members did everything to nullfy this advantge of length otherwise known famously as 'Tiger Proofing'.

F1 for the past years has been about Newey Proofing.


Sure that plays a role, no doubt. Just like RB fans have double standards with regard to team orders.
Nevertheless, if only RB makes noises, do you expect members to discuss Sauber?

#411 Timstr11

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 07:37

Gary seems to simpley be regurgitating what we debated the whole night here. The quote does not have any new info on whether this actually happens

Hembrey admitted that flatspotting a tyre can lead to the delamination. It happened to Marussia and Mercedes. That is clearly a structural problem.

Edited by Timstr11, 24 March 2013 - 07:43.


#412 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 07:48

Hembrey admitted that flatspotting a tyre can lead to the delamination. It happened to Marussia and Mercedes. That is clearly a structural problem.


Actually I don't think he did. In the long Motorsport Magazin interview that I translated yesterday, he only says this:

Als im Training hier in Malaysia teilweise die Gummifetzen geflogen sind, haben manche Leute im Fahrerlager schon gesagt, dass das gefährlich sei...
Paul Hembery: Nein, das ist Quatsch. Die Strecke war wahnsinnig schmutzig und die Autos sammelten unglaublich viel Reifenabrieb auf. Das waren keine Teile, die vom Reifen weggeflogen sind, sondern welche, die aufgesammelt und aufgewirbelt wurden. Bei den Reifenschäden von Sergio Perez und Lewis Hamilton war die Ursache ein Bremsplatten. Das ist also etwas ganz anderes.

Das war also ein Fahrer- und kein Reifenfehler.
Paul Hembery: In aller Fairness müssen wir zugeben, dass die Reifen in diesem Jahr sehr sensibel auf Bremsplatten reagieren. Wir überwachen das und deswegen möchte ich nicht unbedingt sagen, dass es ein reiner Fehler des Fahrers war.


You can look up the translation, but what he is saying is that the rubber parts flying away was just pickup, and that the Perez and Ham problems were flat spots, but he admits that the tyres react too sensible to flatspotting. The term delamination does not come up, and I don't think a picture or video of delamination was provided in the thread. I could obviously be wrong though.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 24 March 2013 - 07:49.


#413 f1rules

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 07:49

that's because you do not get RTL and have Niki Lauda talking about stuff



I am looking at the Lauda/Hembery interview right now, and the Lauda quotes were well publicized anyway. But that was just the usual bickering about preferences. It's something else if RB goes out and says Pirelli makes an unsafe tyre, and Merc didn't do that


how rtl can keep lauda as expert is beyond me, i saw the interview also, but thank god 80% of rtl's viewers didn't agree with him

Edited by f1rules, 24 March 2013 - 07:54.


#414 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 07:51

how rtl can keep laura as expert is beyond me, i saw the interview also, but thank god 80% of rtl's viewers didn't agree with him


I was surprised, after the very strong statements Lauda made in previous days, that he didn't take the opportunity to say so when on TV with Hembery, but was completely soft.

#415 mlsnoopy

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 07:55

Actually I don't think he did. In the long Motorsport Magazin interview that I translated yesterday, he only says this:


You can look up the translation, but what he is saying is that the rubber parts flying away was just pickup, and that the Perez and Ham problems were flat spots, but he admits that the tyres react too sensible to flatspotting. The term delamination does not come up, and I don't think a picture or video of delamination was provided in the thread. I could obviously be wrong though.


But you could see a massive hole in the tyre.

#416 f1rules

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 07:57

I was surprised, after the very strong statements Lauda made in previous days, that he didn't take the opportunity to say so when on TV with Hembery, but was completely soft.


still, who knows lauda, he is practically running mercedes behind the scenes, even they try to convince he is not, he knows the political tricks better then anyone, he can just not be trusted i a position like this I'm sorry, especially if mercedes will start to fight seriously at the front,

#417 Clatter

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 08:34

But you could see a massive hole in the tyre.


Flat spotting your tyres can do that.


#418 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 08:52

still, who knows lauda, he is practically running mercedes behind the scenes, even they try to convince he is not, he knows the political tricks better then anyone, he can just not be trusted i a position like this I'm sorry, especially if mercedes will start to fight seriously at the front,


You cannot trust RTL in any case. It's not as if Lauda had a FIA position in addition to the Merc role.

#419 Skinnyguy

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 09:44

Do they still? :lol:

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#420 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 09:45

So, what was so terribly unsafe again?

#421 jerriy

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 09:49

It's utterly disgusting that the 2013 tyres are even more volatile

As if Formula 1 has to become even more a tyre management exercise than it already is.

Edited by jerriy, 24 March 2013 - 09:50.


#422 rijole1

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:34

Do they still? :lol:

Yeah, do they still??? :lol:

#423 PretentiousBread

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 16:46

You remember what I said in the first Merc 2013 thread about Redbull having possibly too much downforce:

This is something that I have been wondering about .... the difference in on track stability betweed Redbull and other top cars (ie being on rails) is so striking that either they will run away with the titles this year or they have overdone adding downforce to their car..... this is why I have them and Merc as this year's wild cards - Merc because its a new car whilst the others are evolutions and Redbull because its hard to believe they are so far a head of the others in such an important regard.

The Merc is not any better balanced than say the Ferrari and the Lotus ... Merc seems to have caught up with Macca, Ferrari and Lotus and if its faster than them its only marginally so ... but with Redbull they either have put too much downforce on or we may have another 2011 .....I am keeping fingers crossed that they overdid it. JMHO


To be fair I wondered if they would have too much drag from puttin on inefficient downforce (since their best methods have been discouraged by the FIA) and I thought they would hit the limit in terms of too low top speed or something else directly aero related .... but tyres will do for me :smoking:

It is possible to have too much downforce ... even in F1


Absolutely. Compare Red Bull's respective race pace in Barcelona, Hungary and Suzuka in 2010 with 2011 - all circuits full of high speed and/or long duration corners that are punishing on the tyres, Red Bulls dominant cars both years those years - they dominated these tracks completely in 2010 on durable rubber, and were far from dominant in 2011 on brittle rubber, mostly because the tyres have a certain saturation point where they refuse to offer up any more grip for the amount of compression being placed on them, with the byproduct of the extra compression being more heat, overworking the tyres.

Edited by PretentiousBread, 24 March 2013 - 16:47.


#424 Shambolic

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 22:34

Actually, it's simpler:
This is like blaming Pirelli because you built a car that can reach 400 kph on the Monza straights, but the tyre fails to allow the car to take the chicanes if your break point is at 50 meters.


Actually, you placed un-necessary wear on your keyboard.

It's like blaming Pirelli because you built a car.