93 replies to this topic

[Tenmantaylor]

We've seen 2 examples within 2 laps within 2 teams of why they need to go. Wether driver obeys or ignores them its bad for the teams and its bad for the spectacle in equal measure. Just let them race and stop bringing the "sport" into disrepute!.

[Nonesuch]

Absolutely not; F1 is a team-sport, no matter what the massive ego's of certain drivers suggests. They're just two people in an organisation of hundreds.

[03011969]

No. Banning team orders doesn't work. Easy to get round through slow pit stops etc.

[Red17]

Team orders were around when they were banned as well. It will only change when the FIA and specially the public demands it.

[Gene and Tonic]

So after incredible drama you want that all taken away? :s

[Disgrace]

We've seen 2 examples within 2 laps within 2 teams of why they need to go. Wether driver obeys or ignores them its bad for the teams and its bad for the spectacle in equal measure. Just let them race and stop bringing the "sport" into disrepute!.

"Fernando is faster than you" occurred whilst team orders were banned. Good luck with your quest.

[MichaelPM]

Just get rid of the pit to car radio, send the cars out on track with a strategy based on limits they deduced over the weekend and let the drivers do the thinking after that.

[Jimisgod]

I blame team radio. Let the drivers be completely alone for the full race distance, except for emergencies. Car to pit radio only. Pit boards on the straight tell them to pit.

Radio gives us deltas and this crap, where drivers cry to the team bosses who then stifle the racing.

And the people watching are the losers.

Edited by Jimisgod, 24 March 2013 - 10:05.

[BestCarWins]

"Fernando is faster than you" occurred whilst team orders were banned. Good luck with your quest.

Indeed it did. I thought it was also common knowledge that in the last stint of the race that team mates would hold position rather than risk an accident - again while team orders were supposedly banned.

[Astro]

Honestly, I am very frustrated after Fernando's DNF, but this race has been a blessing, because after Rosberg and Webber's comments, the fantasies of so many in this forum should come to an end.

Hopefully, from now on we can enjoy more adult conversations in the forum.

[jerriy]

LOL the same posters who want Vettel to obey team orders are demanding Rosberg disobey it

[choyothe]

Agreed, Webber should've never led this race.

[jerriy]

We've seen 2 examples within 2 laps within 2 teams of why they need to go. Wether driver obeys or ignores them its bad for the teams and its bad for the spectacle in equal measure. Just let them race and stop bringing the "sport" into disrepute!.

Why is the sport NOT being put into disrepute when Ferrari does it?

We can't have a rule set up (with everyone's agreement) and then expect only Ferrari to use it.

Edited by jerriy, 24 March 2013 - 10:14.

[ANF]

Nooooo! The team orders ban was the stupidest thing ever.

[Disgrace]

Just get rid of the pit to car radio, send the cars out on track with a strategy based on limits they deduced over the weekend and let the drivers do the thinking after that.

Well that's no solution to team orders when they can be made before the race as well. There is no way to stop team orders, so everyone better get used to it.

[gramsy1977]

Multi 21

[Gene and Tonic]

LOL the same posters who want Vettel to obey team orders are demanding Rosberg disobey it

Nailed it!

[Szoelloe]

You can't ban team orders

[SCUDmissile]

good luck enforcing that....

[SunnyENTP]

LOL the same posters who want Vettel to obey team orders are demanding Rosberg disobey it

So funny

[P123]

We've seen 2 examples within 2 laps within 2 teams of why they need to go. Wether driver obeys or ignores them its bad for the teams and its bad for the spectacle in equal measure. Just let them race and stop bringing the "sport" into disrepute!.

Adds a bit of drama I suppose- plenty of friction post race! Looks like Webber was stitched up well and trully. However, I'm not a fan of them either (not just today like perhaps some are...)and even as an LH fan I was willing Nico to pass.

[Bartonz20let]

Honestly, I am very frustrated after Fernando's DNF, but this race has been a blessing, because after Rosberg and Webber's comments, the fantasies of so many in this forum should come to an end.

Hopefully, from now on we can enjoy more adult conversations in the forum.

With antagonistic posts like that?

As a Lewis fan, I'm disappointed for nico but its a team game and a great result for Merc.

Edited by Bartonz20let, 24 March 2013 - 10:30.

[fastwriter]

Is it me alone, that is a little bit disgusted after the first two GPs of the new season?

In the first race there was the Massa/Alonso-Situation - maybe teamorders to protect the teams Nr. 1 - and now in Malaysia Red Bull and Mercedes do the same thing. Why don't the teams let their drivers race against each other. Don't tell the "Nr. 2"-Drivers to slow down! Let us see, who really is the best!

Not a good day for Vettel and Hamilton. Not a good day for RBR and Merc. And definitely not a good day for the sport.

What do you think?

(And no, please don't make another "I hate this driver, thus I flame him here"-Thread. It's about F1 in general).

[SunnyENTP]

Why is the sport NOT being put into disrepute when Ferrari does it?

We can't have a rule set up (with everyone's agreement) and then expect only Ferrari to use it.

Wow! Again Jerryy again making sense. Somebody clap for this guy!

Its funny all last year Ferrari did this all the time everyone accepted it. Funny thing is the same people complaining are the same people who were deriding RB/Mercedes for wanting to change tyres back to 2012 spec, saying 'They should Deal with it, its part of the rules, they cant handle tyres now they want the rules changed'....well funny the same people cant handle the rules and want it changed.

[fdspd]

Today's team order dramas will be a good test for the forum. Lets see how people align their views on the Massa-Alonso incident last week vs the Red Bull situation vs the Mercedes situation without sounding like hypocrites.

[MichaelPM]

Well that's no solution to team orders when they can be made before the race as well. There is no way to stop team orders, so everyone better get used to it.

So RBR and Merc went into the race predicting exactly what we saw or adjusted strategy and orders as the race went on?
If the driver was responsible for gauging tire wear and fuel loads then this race would have been totally different. It would be a more driver orientated sport as well, nothing but wins for the fans.

[SCUDmissile]

We've seen 2 examples within 2 laps within 2 teams of why they need to go. Wether driver obeys or ignores them its bad for the teams and its bad for the spectacle in equal measure. Just let them race and stop bringing the "sport" into disrepute!.

f1 also stopped being a true sport for a long time.

[Donkey]

TBH this is probably the best thing that happened to the whole team orders debacle. If drivers like Vettel start to feel that they can get away with ignoring team orders without getting sacked, then more drivers will just ignore instructions to stop racing and team orders will become irrelevant anyway.

Banning team orders just ends to pitstop fudges and frustrated drivers/fans.

[BigCHrome]

Red Bull's situation wouldn't have been affected by team orders. There will be car saving mode for as long as there are limited engines/gearboxes.

[Disgrace]

So RBR and Merc went into the race predicting exactly what we saw or adjusted strategy and orders as the race went on?
If the driver was responsible for gauging tire wear and fuel loads then this race would have been totally different. It would be a more driver orientated sport as well, nothing but wins for the fans.

If the team-mates are of equal quality, then you're right, and I think that is what will mostly happen.

However, the teams can control the driver line-up so such a situation doesn't arise at all, which may not be win-win for the fans.

Likewise, teams may decide outside of a race a cut-off point in the championship, whereby whoever is ahead is given all resources to win the title.

There are infinite ways around a team orders ban because there are so many ways to apply them.

[August]

Mandate every car to have spnsorship from different groups. Nobody would sponsor a car that would need to give a palce for another group's car. Result; teams can't use team orders.

[zapppa83]

Yes, i can accept team orders in the second part of the Championship when and if the drivers have big point differences but in the first races i want to see all against all.

[Victor]

No way. Team orders are part of the game.
And, of course, you cannot forbid what you cannot control.

[Wheels23]

Keep 'em

Why would I have two of my cars battle out for top positions where there is a massive chance for them to crash handing the win or massive haul of points to my rivals.

[Tenmantaylor]

The two outcomes just highlights the hypocrisy though. I believe Vettel was right to take matters into his own hands but Webber thought he was in the same situation as Hamilton; protected. The truth is only one driver is protected at RB as Webber alluded on the podium. RB shouldn't be surprised if Webber doesn't play fair next time and pass Seb or take him out. In which case RB will cripple Webber through a pitstop or worse. I was surprised RB didn't mess up Webber's final pitstop to avoid this awkwardness. I'm glad they didnt though because it was amazing racing between the two assuming the terms were equal. And as for Nico that just sucked balls. As bad as Austria '02.

[Rikhart]

Vettel lying with all his teeth, saying he was unaware of the situation, after all the confirmations by the team leaders. How low can this guy sink today?

[PayasYouRace]

Today's events would have been exactly the same had the team orders ban still been in place. But it would have been "hidden" behind more codes and everyone would be arguing just as much.

In fact I was quite pleased with the honesty that both teams were able to put into their communications, both during and after the race. The warning to Sebl that he'd have some explaining to do; Nico telling the team that he'd remember this for next time if the situation is reversed; Mark being frank about the situation; Lewis admitting he felt Nico deserved the podium step. I think anyone actually paying attention would realise that it was just part of the way the game is played.

It's added some real drama to the season, but it's out in the open, which can only be better for us.

[Slartibartfast]

Its funny all last year Ferrari did this all the time everyone accepted it.

Everyone? I don't think that's true.

Funny thing is the same people complaining are the same people who were deriding RB/Mercedes for wanting to change tyres back to 2012 spec, saying 'They should Deal with it, its part of the rules, they cant handle tyres now they want the rules changed'....well funny the same people cant handle the rules and want it changed.

There is a difference. The tyres don't play favourites, they are the same for everyone. Team orders, if applied across all the teams, disadvantages half the drivers in comparison to the other half. One is a case of "level playing field", the other isn't.

[F1EC]

Absolutely not; F1 is a team-sport, no matter what the massive ego's of certain drivers suggests. They're just two people in an organisation of hundreds.

Agreed. I disliked them when I first started watching F1, when they were banned. It was clear that the big hitters like Ferrari and Red Bull were allowed to get away with them, and it seemed unfair. Now we know they can all do it, so it's a level playing field. and it's just one of the many variables that we, as viewers, need to understand.

Also, when you gain a better understanding of the sport, it's clear it's not all about what we see on the race track (or what the race directors choose to show us). Strategies, politics, finance - they all have their place, and that complexity of F1 is what gives it its depth.

Drivers may be able to negotiate a better deal than their team mates (who knows what Vettel has on Marko!), but ultimately it's down to the team to decide how to run their business. There's a huge amount of money involved, and they can't let the egos of their drivers jeopardise their team's future in the sport.

[F1EC]

Today's events would have been exactly the same had the team orders ban still been in place. But it would have been "hidden" behind more codes and everyone would be arguing just as much.

In fact I was quite pleased with the honesty that both teams were able to put into their communications, both during and after the race. The warning to Sebl that he'd have some explaining to do; Nico telling the team that he'd remember this for next time if the situation is reversed; Mark being frank about the situation; Lewis admitting he felt Nico deserved the podium step. I think anyone actually paying attention would realise that it was just part of the way the game is played.

It's added some real drama to the season, but it's out in the open, which can only be better for us.

[Fastcake]

It probably could of been easier to enforce the team order ban if they actually tried. Just apply a simple duck test, if it looks like a team order, sounds like a team order, and has a result akin to a team order, it probably is one. Then give an immediate drive-through to anyone benefiting from it. You would end up with a lot of pissed off teams of course, but it would of been doable to cut down the big ones.

[learningtobelost]

f1 also stopped being a true sport for a long time.

Don't be so melodramatic... these "hold station" agreements have been around since the birth of the sport.

[Tenmantaylor]

Today's events would have been exactly the same had the team orders ban still been in place. But it would have been "hidden" behind more codes and everyone would be arguing just as much.

In fact I was quite pleased with the honesty that both teams were able to put into their communications, both during and after the race. The warning to Sebl that he'd have some explaining to do; Nico telling the team that he'd remember this for next time if the situation is reversed; Mark being frank about the situation; Lewis admitting he felt Nico deserved the podium step. I think anyone actually paying attention would realise that it was just part of the way the game is played.

It's added some real drama to the season, but it's out in the open, which can only be better for us.

Were you pleased when Schumi ushered Rubens onto the top step in Austria? Honesty on the track is infinitely more desirable than honesty about race fixing.

[slideways]

1 car per team. Probelem solvered.

[prty]

Newsflash, the teams do the same under banned team orders.

[olliek88]

We've seen 2 examples within 2 laps within 2 teams of why they need to go. Wether driver obeys or ignores them its bad for the teams and its bad for the spectacle in equal measure. Just let them race and stop bringing the "sport" into disrepute!.

Its an unworkable ban, teams will swap their drivers or hold them in situ if they really want. I don't like them but they're a part of racing.

[PayasYouRace]

Were you pleased when Schumi ushered Rubens onto the top step in Austria? Honesty on the track is infinitely more desirable than honesty about race fixing.

I was not pleased with their handling of the podium ceremony that day. Neither was I pleased with the way Rubens left it right to the end. It also seemed a little unnecessary given Ferrari's total domination that year, especially in hindsight. However that was 11 years ago. I was just a teenager back then and my understanding of the sport has grown a lot since then, so my feelings about it aren't really relevant any more.

[Gene and Tonic]

1 car per team. Probelem solvered.

And a crucial dynamic of F1 completely taken away. The sport neutered.

[Astro]

With antagonistic posts like that?

As a Lewis fan, I'm disappointed for nico but its a team game and a great result for Merc.

Antagonistic... That's a good one. Sorry you got it that way. As a Fernando fan I think the same way than you do. I don't make up fantasies about Mercedes or RBR. It is a sport about cars above all. I am relieve today, because a good number of pestering posts about Ferrari and Alonso may have finally come to an end. I just hope now when we discussed in other threads about Ferrari, Massa and Alonso, we are not flooded with comments about conspiracies that make difficult to have an enjoying conversation about racing. But maybe I am hoping for too much.

[Fontainebleau]

Newsflash, the teams do the same under banned team orders.

Indeed. If anything, what we saw and heard today just proves that it is impossible to tell team orders unless one of the drivers calls them out. Hadn't Webber spoken about the messages he received and what they meant, we would never be able to prove that the two RB did not just raced each other.

I am not against team orders, mind you, even if I understand that they can be unfair.