77 replies to this topic

[aliasj]

Had Schumacher been driving the No. 9 car instead of Rosberg today, would he had a) made a move, b) made it stick and c) passed Hamilton today? Would he had come on the radio to ask for permission, or he would have simply made a move, fair and skilled-fully?

[mkoscevic]

Do you really have to ask?

[1Devil1]

what a thread. schumacher would have never been in this positions because he was much faster in the race than nico. third place for Michael and fourth for Hamilton. if you want a "serious" answer.

[fenixracing]

what a thread. schumacher would have never been in this positions because he was much faster in the race than nico. third place for Michael and fourth for Hamilton. if you want a "serious" answer.

[ArkZ]

Brawn wouldn't ask Schumacher to hold his position IMO.

Edited by ArkZ, 24 March 2013 - 11:04.

[surbjits]

[rt99]

hypothetical question as schumacher was forced out of Mercedes because of the deal being done with Hamilton.

The last team mate he had to established himself against, was Martin Brundle.

[aditya-now]

what a thread. schumacher would have never been in this positions because he was much faster in the race than nico. third place for Michael and fourth for Hamilton. if you want a "serious" answer.

One thing is clear now: Vettel is gonna be the new Schumacher in all respects and he is already hated for it in many quarters.

Nico, on the other hand, is an excellent professional - well, he is German as well, but with Finnish genes....

[aliasj]

I dont think Schumacher (old) was much faster than Rosberg, he was at best evenly-matched. Schumacher (young) would of course had been much faster. But still, Schumacher (old) would have at least made much more of an effort VS Hamilton, and when overtook must have made the position stick.. or else used some clever race tactics, perhaps like don't use KERS at first DRS, but use it fully at second DRS.. something like that.

Also Schumacher (old) would have been much smarter than to come on the radio and asked for free pass.. He'd probably ask, "Are we racing? Are we free to race?" and made a move anyways.

[Hyatt]

Had Schumacher been driving the ...

Schumacher who?

[Nonesuch]

The fact that Schumacher won 91 Grand Prix' while his most successful team-mate managed only 11 should answer that question.

Would Schumacher have been able to be faster than Hamilton in 2013? We can't know - but I have some doubts.

[Massa_f1]

what this thread title should be is

Would the F1 commentators and pundits of been so kind about Mercedes team orders if it was Schumacher being allowed to keep 3rd from Nico.

[jerriy]

Brawn wouldn't ask Schumacher to hold his position IMO.

Rubbish.

Schumacher retired precisely in order to avoid being in the situation that Rosberg is in and give in to Hamilton in races.

Had you been right (if Schuey had ever felt that he had the kind of power over Hamilton that he had over others) then he would never have retired in the first place. Why would he?

Edited by jerriy, 24 March 2013 - 11:20.

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

Schumacher was the ultimate team player. He would have held if told to.

[PoliFanAthic]

I think Michael showed what kind of team player he was in the last three years when it was required of him. Would that have been different now, with a seemingly more competitive car and so early into the season? We'll never know - as we won't know whether it would have been asked of him.

The problem with being a team player at this point is that:
a) it doesn't look good, seeing how this is a new partnership and there was absolutely no need to impose it on the faster driver
b) the way in which it was stressed on TR was rather humiliating (Nico was blatantly lied to when Ross told him Hamilton could go faster if he wanted, just to save appearances)
c) any points gap created early on can be used as an argument later on when things get dicey and "hard choices" need to be made; I'd say Nico already paid the team-price in Australia, when the car failed due to no fault of his own

I think these are the kind of thoughts that, fully pondered, highlight why compliance with such a team order just doesn't do the driver any favors. Last year showed how you need to take your chances, Michael paid the price for it with his many retirements cause mostly by poor reliability, and once a certain team dynamic is established (see Red Bull), it becomes very hard to change the status quo.

P.S. On Michael related issues, didn't Webber's move on Vettel remind anyone of Hungaroring 2010?

Edited by PoliFanAthic, 24 March 2013 - 11:51.

[ivand911]

I know that Michael at 43 was not slower that all guys around him. Simple. He just have bad cars and very bad luck in those 3 years.

[aliasj]

I know that Michael at 43 was not slower that all guys around him. Simple. He just have bad cars and very bad luck in those 3 years.

Yeah.. I also believe that.. at 43 he was not slower than guys around him. But nobody wants to believe that at 23 he was much, much faster. Why do people have such a hard time?

[Jejking]

Rubbish.

Schumacher retired precisely in order to avoid being in the situation that Rosberg is in and give in to Hamilton in races.

Had you been right (if Schuey had ever felt that he had the kind of power over Hamilton that he had over others) then he would never have retired in the first place. Why would he?

That's rubbish as well.

If Schumacher had stayed on, he would have been driving against Rosberg again (contracted), not Hamilton (looking elsewhere for a seat).

Schumacher was the ultimate team player. He would have held if told to.

This is surprising, I was thinking about it already today. What springs to mind is this: Malaysia 1999, Brazil 2002, Monza 2003, Brazil 2010. In all cased Schumacher stepped aside for the team and his teammate. I suspect this is a no-brainer after all, have a good feeling he would have stayed back but maybe made a stronger case for himself over the team radio.

[Tarzaan]

Imho
1 If MS has a proper car, he simply outqualify Ham, and stay ahead of him in every race.

2 If the team care MS like they did in las year, MS's car broke after few laps, or the team screw his pit stops.

[seahawk]

Whatever the result would have been, I am certain MSC would not have enjoyed the race. This save tires, save fuel, drive to a delta type of racing was not for him.

[apoka]

One thing is clear now: Vettel is gonna be the new Schumacher in all respects and he is already hated for it in many quarters.

Nico, on the other hand, is an excellent professional - well, he is German as well, but with Finnish genes....

I think it's not nice to talk about genes that way.

[Massa_f1]

All the British media are praising Mercedes for the teamwork today. Funny but if it was Schumacher in the car and not Hamilton, I am sure he would be getting almost as much backlash as Vettel is now

[sharo]

All the British media are praising Mercedes for the teamwork today. Funny but if it was Schumacher in the car and not Hamilton, I am sure he would be getting almost as much backlash as Vettel is now

Funny, isn't it?

[MightyMoose]

Odd, Schumacher's name appears in a thread title and the trolls come out to play.

Posts have been deleted, this is not a debate about the history of Schumacher, the question posed is quite a simple one. This thread will not fall into a "driver discussion".

Thank you.

[BuzzingHornet]

All the British media are praising Mercedes for the teamwork today. Funny but if it was Schumacher in the car and not Hamilton, I am sure he would be getting almost as much backlash as Vettel is now

Links?

[BenettonB192]

Mhh how does one answer a rhetoric thread?

[sharo]

I am not sure about Schumacher Mk I
Schumacher Mk II would have held station IMO.

[stillOrange]

Schumacher was the ultimate team player. He would have held if told to.

I would like to think that this would be the case in Nico vs Lewis situation but I equally think he wold go for it if it was Seb vs Mark situation.

[Mr2s]

Odd, Schumacher's name appears in a thread title and the trolls come out to play.

Posts have been deleted, this is not a debate about the history of Schumacher[/u], the question posed is quite a simple one. This thread will not fall into a "driver discussion".

Thank you.

They are either trolls or they were debating. Which was it?

and why have you allowed the OP who claimed the old schumacher "would of course been much faster than Rosberg"

There is nothing trolling about people pulling the poster to task over that wild and unfounded statement. As you said yourself, "debate" and schumacher is after all in the title of the question.

If anything the OP is a troll as he started a similar thread that is now locked.
Pointless question. Please move to pointless forum.

Edited by Mr2s, 24 March 2013 - 16:49.

[FastnLoud]

To be honest Michael would have crashed by lap 3 anyway

We have no idea but my opinion is

No, Michael would have been allowed past for sure.

Edited by FastnLoud, 24 March 2013 - 18:12.

[LiJu914]

I don´t see the purpose of this thread, but will answer anyway.

I think the "old" Schumacher would´ve behaved like Nico.
I´m not completely sure about "young" Schumacher, but the only time he was in a roughly comparable situation (Malaysia 1999), he obeyed.

Edited by LiJu914, 24 March 2013 - 18:17.

[V8 Fireworks]

I know that Michael at 43 was not slower that all guys around him. Simple. He just have bad cars and very bad luck in those 3 years.

On several occassions Schumi forgot to brake in time and ploughed into the back of other cars, mostly Force Indias and Sauber off the top of my head

[Schumacher7]

On several occassions Schumi forgot to brake in time and ploughed into the back of other cars, mostly Force Indias and Sauber off the top of my head

Yeah he doesn't like white cars. But seriously how was your comment relevant?
And if Schumacher had been fast enough to be in Nico's position today I can't see Ross would have told him to hold station, I think Lewis would have been told not to fight if Michael was coming through, partly because a Michael Schumacher podium is better publicity than a Lewis Hamilton podium.

[Bloggsworth]

Undoubtedly, he would have passed Hamilton, gone on to win, saved the Eurozone from collapse and in due course white smoke would rise from the Vatican...

[chrisblades85]

Mercedes Schuey, would of held posistion.

The real Schuey, no way.

[emburmak]

Mercedes Schuey, would of held posistion.

The real Schuey, no way.

Hmm? MS was definitely a team player to the core but IHMO if he were in NR's position today he would have overtaken LH far more decisively & without recourse to asking for permission. In short without a direct order prior to intiating an attack from the team MS would have made his overtake stick.

[Claudius]

Schumacher (Ralf) did it at Spa 98.

[Fastcake]

I have the feeling that he would of stayed behind actually. The Michael Schumacher that drove for Mercedes was a different person than the ruthless machine of the Ferrari years.

[Grundle]

Undoubtedly, he would have passed Hamilton, gone on to win, saved the Eurozone from collapse and in due course white smoke would rise from the Vatican...

[Deluxx]

If I was Hammy I would have let Nico pass me if he was faster.

[Vermont]

Links?

God, I find nothing more boring than the "links" posts. Really???

[Vermont]

I don´t see the purpose of this thread, but will answer anyway.

I think the "old" Schumacher would´ve behaved like Nico.
I´m not completely sure about "young" Schumacher, but the only time he was in a roughly comparable situation (Malaysia 1999), he obeyed.

Exactly. he was the contract 31 driver and yet, when asked by his team, he played 2nd fiddle to a 2nd rate driver.

[Vermont]

Mercedes Schuey, would of held posistion.

The real Schuey, no way.

Malaysia 1999.....proves you wrong

[Jejking]

And again, since everybody is missing the clue :/

This is surprising, I was thinking about it already today. What springs to mind is this: Malaysia 1999, Brazil 2002, Monza 2003, Brazil 2010. In all cased Schumacher stepped aside for the team and his teammate. I suspect this is a no-brainer after all, have a good feeling he would have stayed back but maybe made a stronger case for himself over the team radio.

[nOfe4r]

The moment I saw Rosberg going for it in the first DRS Zone just to be re-taken in the second DRS Zone made me think that this is the difference between the fast drivers and the champions. Schumacher would have made that stick by being smart enough to be just behind Hamilton at the second detection point. I just could not believe it it was so obvious.

After being told to hold position he would have done so. He was always pro team order and he showed it many times on track that he will obey them too.

[schubacca]

Schumacher would have held position because he is a team player.

[schubacca]

And again, since everybody is missing the clue :/

This is surprising, I was thinking about it already today. What springs to mind is this: Malaysia 1999, Brazil 2002, Monza 2003, Brazil 2010. In all cased Schumacher stepped aside for the team and his teammate. I suspect this is a no-brainer after all, have a good feeling he would have stayed back but maybe made a stronger case for himself over the team radio.

Yes,

This is a chap that gave wins away to Eddie Irvine.

[Jejking]

Note to self: do not confuse Imola and Monza

[aditya-now]

And again, since everybody is missing the clue :/

This is surprising, I was thinking about it already today. What springs to mind is this: Malaysia 1999, Brazil 2002, Monza 2003, Brazil 2010. In all cased Schumacher stepped aside for the team and his teammate. I suspect this is a no-brainer after all, have a good feeling he would have stayed back but maybe made a stronger case for himself over the team radio.

Exactly - Malaysia 1999 is especially poignant, since it was on the same track when notably Michael Schumacher obeyed the team strategy for Irvine, whereas in Malaysia 2013 Vettel ignored the team strategy - his special gift to Mark on the occasion of his 200th Grand Prix.

These two behaviours could not be farther apart - and Michael showed good character (in the question of team orders) repeatedly, whereas Vettel did not.

BILD finds clear words:

Von FRANK SCHNEIDER
Sebastian Vettel hat es selbst schon oft gesagt: Auf der Strecke musst du ein Drecksack sein.
Bei seinem Sieg in Malaysia hielt sich Vettel an diesen Satz: Erst verhielt er sich wie ein Drecksack, dann entschuldigte er sich dafür.
Vettel wirkte dabei, als wäre er von seiner eigenen Brutalität überrascht. Dass er diesen Killerinstinkt hat, macht den Weltmeister sicher nicht beliebter bei seinen Formel-1-Kollegen.
Aber auch diese Eigenschaft unterscheidet ihn von Piloten im Mittelmaß.
Vettel erinnert auf der Piste mehr und mehr an sein Idol Michael Schumacher, dessen Gnadenlosigkeit zu sieben Titeln führte.
Schumi wurde geliebt oder gehasst – Vettel ist auf dem Weg dorthin.

"S.V. has said it himself often enough: on the track you must be a sc**b*g.
When he won in Malaysia Vettel obeyed his own sentence: first he acted like a sc**b*g, then he apologized for it."
etc.

Beat Zehnder of Sauber said that across the whole paddock the reputation of Vettel has suffered.

Although BILD insinuates, that Vettel is more and more reminding of his idol Michael Schumacher, I have to say that Schumi had much more character in the human department - despite also wanting to win at all costs. And Schumacher never had the little boy's mischievous grin that Vettel displays as a cover up.

Edited by aditya-now, 25 March 2013 - 16:23.

[halifaxf1fan]

Desperate for a podium comeback Schumacher would have passed Hamilton in a second.