51 replies to this topic

[rjtart]

Mark Webber obeyed team orders and lost an almost certain victory, Nico Rosberg obeyed team orders and lost a chance for a podium finish. Engine management, tire management, fuel management. Whatever the reason, current F1 regulations resulted in race fans losing the chance for 2 thrilling down to the wire battles.
Who was done the greatest disservice?

Edited by rjtart, 24 March 2013 - 11:08.

[F1EC]

Mark Webber obeyed team orders and lost an almost certain victory, Nico Rosberg obeyed team orders and lost a chance for a podium finish. Engine management, tire management, fuel management. Whatever the reason, current F1 regulations resulted in race fans losing the chance for 2 thrilling down to the wire battles.
Who was done the greatest disservice?

Webber, for sure. He reined back due to a pre-race agreement and also due to instructions during the race, and Vettel took advantage of that. Webber lost a race win, which is worse than losing 3rd place. He also missed the chance of joint-leading the drivers championship.

Ross Brawn says that Rosberg had the same fuel issues as Hamilton, so the assumption is that being held back by Hamilton also saved Rosberg's race, even if that wasn't explained to Rosberg at the time. If he'd overtaken, would he have maintained that position for the rest of the race if he also had problems? In the end, although Rosberg didn't trust the orders he was given, he's come out of it with his reputation intact and he didn't lose as much as Webber in terms of points.

eta: I don't think we lost much. The post-race interviews were highly entertaining.

Edited by F1EC, 24 March 2013 - 11:14.

[rt99]

Turning engines down and saving tyres is not the pinnacle of motorsport. Its a very expensive farce paid for by you and I.

[choyothe]

Mark Webber obeyed team orders and lost an almost certain victory, Nico Rosberg obeyed team orders and lost a chance for a podium finish. Engine management, tire management, fuel management. Whatever the reason, current F1 regulations resulted in race fans losing the chance for 2 thrilling down to the wire battles.
Who was done the greatest disservice?

What? The team orders were for him, he didn't need to obey anything.

Nico > Vettel >

[Disgrace]

Clearly Webber. Although he hasn't in the past, on this occasion, he followed orders in good faith and was punished.

Rosberg followed orders, and there's no reason to believe that had the positions been reversed, the orders wouldn't have been the same. He will "make his own luck" by running ahead of Hamilton in the future.

Race fans? I thought it was pretty damn good racing, but ultimately F1 is a controlled environment, and such controls were seen as necessary by those at risk.

Edited by Disgrace, 24 March 2013 - 11:25.

[InfectedPumpkin]

Rosberg obviously.
Webber would not hold Vettel anyway, while Rosberg was way faster than Hamilton.

[learningtobelost]

There's a lot of double standards here.

People that dislike the Merc decision are viewing the last 15 laps of the race in isolation, ignoring the first 3/4 of the race and the team strategy that ultimately let Rosberg be that much faster at the end, whereas with the RBR decision people are viewing the whole of the race.

Personally I don't really care, it's a team sport and it always has been. I really don't understand why people act surprised and outraged when the sort of stuff has been happening up and down the field in EVERY RACE during the 22 years I've been following the sport, it only becomes an issue when someone goes against the teams wishes (Vettel today, Button Turkey 2010 etc.) or when the disadvantaged party gets vocal about it (Rosberg today, Massa/Smedley etc.).

[mnmracer]

Funny how Webber apparently obeyed team orders (despite trying to re-overtake Vettel), and even lost certain victory despite lacking race pace towards Vettel the entire race. Ayrton Senna would be ashamed of the outcry that happened today.

[F1EC]

What? The team orders were for him, he didn't need to obey anything.

Nico > Vettel >

Webber obeyed team orders to take it easy. He could have gone faster. He played by the rules. He also could have fought harder during the tussle with Vettel. Basically, Webber played fair, and he lost out massively.

[choyothe]

Webber obeyed team orders to take it easy. He could have gone faster. He played by the rules. He also could have fought harder during the tussle with Vettel. Basically, Webber played fair, and he lost out massively.

1) He is an idiot if he didn't understand that Vettel was going to try and get past, what with him tailing Webber extremely close for 2-3 laps after the pits.

2) Webber tried everything in trying to keep Vettel behind, as easily seen from the action. Now whether he kept his engine down at this point is interesting, I'm not so sure about that. If he did, #1.

[MarileneRiddle]

Webber obeyed team orders to take it easy. He could have gone faster. He played by the rules. He also could have fought harder during the tussle with Vettel. Basically, Webber played fair, and he lost out massively.

There is no evidence of that. He was fighting Sebastian all the way until Sebastian finally finished the overtake (including a close pit wall incident reminiscent of Schumacher). So to say Webber played it fair is assuming a fair bit.

And by the same guide Webber was unfair in Silverstone 2011?

[goldenboy]

nico.

It became painful to watch him trundle around following hamilton (and I dont blame ham, but brawn all the way)

[jerriy]

Webber obeyed team orders to take it easy.

Rubbish.

There is no evidence he slowed down, much less he slowed down deliberately.

He was of course no longer racing at ideal speed since he was busy zigzagging and closing doors all the time but either way he wasn't fast enough to keep Vettel behind. The two were locked in a fight right from the moment they joined each other. Not once did Webbo create a gap between him and Vettel. Had Webbo created a gap and then Vettel closed that gap, then you would have had a point.

Edited by jerriy, 24 March 2013 - 13:37.

[scheivlak]

People voting for Webber - especially with Rosberg as an alternative - simply show their bias.

[BRG]

Where's the option for Paul di Resta? Stacked up behind Sutil, then left stranded. Royally screwed.

[RealRacing]

Mark Webber obeyed team orders and lost an almost certain victory, Nico Rosberg obeyed team orders and lost a chance for a podium finish. Engine management, tire management, fuel management. Whatever the reason, current F1 regulations resulted in race fans losing the chance for 2 thrilling down to the wire battles.
Who was done the greatest disservice?

The very results of your poll give a clue of the state of modern F1 and its fans...

[apoka]

Who got screwed most? If 7 WDC points turn out to be irrelevant, then Vettel judging by the witch hunt going on - even if it is his own fault.

From the poll options, I think Rosberg. Hamilton is also kind of screwed actually. None of the top 4 drivers in the past race can be very happy.

[senna da silva]

How did the fans get screwed? If anything we've been entertained, isn't that the point!

[Sakae]

Webber, for sure. He reined back due to a pre-race agreement and also due to instructions during the race, and Vettel took advantage of that. Webber lost a race win, which is worse than losing 3rd place. He also missed the chance of joint-leading the drivers championship.

Ross Brawn says that Rosberg had the same fuel issues as Hamilton, so the assumption is that being held back by Hamilton also saved Rosberg's race, even if that wasn't explained to Rosberg at the time. If he'd overtaken, would he have maintained that position for the rest of the race if he also had problems? In the end, although Rosberg didn't trust the orders he was given, he's come out of it with his reputation intact and he didn't lose as much as Webber in terms of points.

eta: I don't think we lost much. The post-race interviews were highly entertaining.

From an interview I read, Horner is either making decision in the last minute - we must protect those tires- and issue order to Vettel, or he is reiterating what might have been discussed with Newey as race developed; my further understanding is that this is happening all in time when Vettel is already approaching Webber in full racing focus, and it is becoming apparent and clear to pitwall what's going down. Personally I think they were more worry about potential clash of those two (like in Turkey 2010) and lost of points then tires, but that's just my speculation.

Where did you get that story about pre-arranged orders to be so definite about it? There is no way RB pitwall could predict before the race driver's configuration in final stages of the race, thus any "pre-agreements" talks really make very little sense. Imagine that Webber would have been in P4 and closing down on Mercedes. Would Horner tell him then also to slow down, and save tires, instead to race, especially of he had perhaps an opportunity to advance his standing? I am not sure we know answer to that question, but from speed that Vettel exhibited, his RB was raceable to the last lap and Finish line.

In conclusion - I doubt there were pre-arranged orders for this race, and instead those were issued in the race for whatever of reasons.

[e34]

Who got screwed most? If 7 WDC points turn out to be irrelevant, then Vettel judging by the witch hunt going on - even if it is his own fault.

From the poll options, I think Rosberg. Hamilton is also kind of screwed actually. None of the top 4 drivers in the past race can be very happy.

Considering that Alonso managed to screw himself, that makes Massa, Ferrari No. 2 driver, on a 4 stop strategy, the less screwed driver. That sure is a first in history.

[choyothe]

How did the fans get screwed? If anything we've been entertained, isn't that the point!

I'd say some fans don't deserve to be entertained.

[Rakaman]

Rosberg obviously.
Webber would not hold Vettel anyway, while Rosberg was way faster than Hamilton.

Vettel wouldn't have been that close if they hadn't told Webber to dial it back, so no, Webber got screwed more than Rosberg.

[scheivlak]

Vettel wouldn't have been that close if they hadn't told Webber to dial it back, so no, Webber got screwed more than Rosberg.

And Webber woudn't have been in front at all if not for a superior strategy call when they changed from inters to slicks - and as a bonus some lighting fast pitstops, faster than Seb's.

[eronrules]

Alonso.

Button

add those options

[SYGRE]

Rosberg obviously.
Webber would not hold Vettel anyway, while Rosberg was way faster than Hamilton.

Is that why there was a 5-6 second gap that Rosberg couldn't cut into ''until'' Lewis' problem?.....so if anyone was screwed most it was Hamilton,he was catching Vettel and was on his way to a possible victory.

[scheivlak]

Is that why there was a 5-6 second gap that Rosberg couldn't cut into ''until'' Lewis' problem?.....so if anyone was screwed most it was Hamilton,he was catching Vettel and was on his way to a possible victory.

There was never a 5-6 second gap between them in the entire race http://forix.autospo...&...130002&c=25

As you can see there, from the first pitstop on Nico was faster in every stint but he had play catch up every stint again.

[Rakaman]

And Webber woudn't have been in front at all if not for a superior strategy call when they changed from inters to slicks - and as a bonus some lighting fast pitstops, faster than Seb's.

So ... you are agreeing Webber got screwed out a victory he rightfully deserved?

[e34]

And Webber woudn't have been in front at all if not for a superior strategy call when they changed from inters to slicks - and as a bonus some lighting fast pitstops, faster than Seb's.

And your conclusion, exactly, is ???

It is the first time I hear somebody saying that a team should compensate against the driver who has had better pit stops.

So the driver who gets better strategy and faster pitstops is supposed to be slowed down by his team, in order to level the playing field with his teammate?

[BigCHrome]

Webber lost more points and bigger achievement, so it has to be him. Rosberg deserved the podium but at least he got an opportunity to fight for it. Webber was told to turn to car saving mode with the obvious expectation that his TEAMmate got the same message, yet Vettel ignored clear team orders.

Funny how Webber apparently obeyed team orders (despite trying to re-overtake Vettel), and even lost certain victory despite lacking race pace towards Vettel the entire race. Ayrton Senna would be ashamed of the outcry that happened today.

If Webber was lacking race pace why was he ahead during the entire race...?

[scheivlak]

And your conclusion, exactly, is ???

It is the first time I hear somebody saying that a team should compensate against the driver who has had better pit stops.

So the driver who gets better strategy and faster pitstops is supposed to be slowed down by his team, in order to level the playing field with his teammate?

No, I just respond to poll question: "Who got screwed the most".

Yes, Webber got screwed.
But he als benefited.

So overall my answer is: Nico.

[LiJu914]

Rosberg deserved the podium but at least he got an opportunity to fight for it. Webber was told to turn to car saving mode with the obvious expectation that his TEAMmate got the same message, yet Vettel ignored clear team orders.

Nope, it´s actually the other way around.

[Longtimefan]

How did the fans get screwed? If anything we've been entertained, isn't that the point!

Some of us think F1 should be about 'racing'

Turning your engine down for the last 15 laps makes a mockery of the sport, fix the tyres, fix the fuel, give them more fuel, shorten the races by 20% I don't care, I just want the drivers 'racing' from lights to flag.

Edited by Longtimefan, 25 March 2013 - 22:09.

[BigCHrome]

Nope, it´s actually the other way around.

What was the other way around? Webber was told to go flat out and Vettel was told to conserve the car? Rosberg didn't deserve the podium and didn't get an opportunity to fight for it?

[choyothe]

If Webber was lacking race pace why was he ahead during the entire race...?

Wrong timing on Vettels 1st pit stop to get ahead, undercuts, team ordering Vettel to stay behind, keep a gap, pitting him to drop behind Hamilton, almost Rosberg.

It's not rocket science.

[eronrules]

So ... you are agreeing Webber got screwed out a victory he rightfully deserved?

so lemme get this straight,

Silverstone 2011: webber told to hold station and he disobeyed. everyone hailed him.

Sepang 2013 : Vettel told to hold station and he disobeyed. everyone is Scaling him.

peoples Standards are really Fu**ed up

[LiJu914]

What was the other way around?

That Nico hadn´t the chance to fight for the podium, whereas Webber wasn´t defenseless against Vettel, just because SV disobeyed team orders.

[Kingshark]

Rosberg, clearly. The guy wasn't even not allowed to overtake Hamilton, whereas Webber was quite clearly allowed to defend his position.

@ the people who voted racing fans. We saw a great battle for the lead in the closing laps. How the hell were we robbed?

[clown]

The poll needs an "I hate Vettel" option to filter out the philistine vote.

[senna da silva]

Some of us think F1 should be about 'racing'

Turning your engine down for the last 15 laps makes a mockery of the sport, fix the tyres, fix the fuel, give them more fuel, shorten the races by 20% I don't care, I just want the drivers 'racing' from lights to flag.

Don't disagree. And I would like to see the tyres improved so they're not racing to a delta, but don't agree about fuel, the rules allow for plenty it has been the team's choice of late to underfuel.

However, the race in Malaysia was entertaining and I would argue that F1 has been much more interesting than it was at the beginning of the millenia.

[jonpollak]

Who got screwed the most?

I did,
The bar I was in had a massive 10 foot HDTV showing the race and half way through they said...
" Last call+ Get out"

Jp

[skid solo]

Who got screwed the most?

I did,
The bar I was in had a massive 10 foot HDTV showing the race and half way through they said...
" Last call+ Get out"

Jp

[spacekid]

F1 is a team competition. Nico did as he was told by his employers, Vettel did not. All 4 drivers are paid employees of the teams, its for the teams to sort out internally.

I'm remarkably unbothered about who was 'screwed'. F1 is a tough 'sport'.

Edited by spacekid, 25 March 2013 - 23:09.

[Sausage]

Rosberg. Webber wasn't screwed by teamorders but by Vettel.

And drivers have always cruised to the finish (and in team tandem if possible), only Kimi is mad enough to give it all from green to chequered ;)

[BigCHrome]

Wrong timing on Vettels 1st pit stop to get ahead, undercuts, team ordering Vettel to stay behind, keep a gap, pitting him to drop behind Hamilton, almost Rosberg.

It's not rocket science.

Yes, ofcourse. Red Bull wanted to screw Vettel through the entire race and kept giving him, their #1 driver of the past 4 years, bad strategies to keep him behind Webber, the #2 who they weren't even sure they wanted to keep last season.

That Nico hadn´t the chance to fight for the podium, whereas Webber wasn´t defenseless against Vettel, just because SV disobeyed team orders.

Nico had at least 3 laps to get ahead of Hamilton but he kept getting passed back in the second DRS zone.

Webber was completely defenseless, they have the same car, yet he was in total conservation mode and Vettel wasn't. It's completely obvious who would get ahead.

[ardbeg]

I think the question should be "Who go gave the right team orders, Horner or Brawn?"
As I see it, Horner made a pretty balanced decision all things considered:
-Webber needed some confidence and to feel he had some backing from the team
-There has been some unpleasant endings and some close calls in intra team fights before
-As we saw with Massa, fresh tires made an enourmous difference and it was hard to calculate the degradion effects

A balanced decision, but in the end it would have been better if he had not made it.

Brawn on the other hand missed the opportunity of seeing what Nico could have done. I see he is saying that Nico was also low on fuel, but I am not so sure I believe him there and other reports indicate Nico had been using his resources more sparingly and thus had more left. We will never know, but in my opinion he should have given Nico the opportunity to show what he had. Not least because he has been a very loyal team player for Mercedes a long time now and I do not think I am alone in interpreting Brwans orders as "Nico, you are number 2".

[halifaxf1fan]

Nico was screwed the hardest.

He was clearly much faster than the spent Hamilton and had a shot of chasing down the Red Bulls for an even better finish. And more serious is the potential for permanent harm to his career. Nico has willingly accepted the role of a #2 driver, he may not be able to recover in the eyes of many team principals to be seen as a #1. This is not a position for Nico to be in at this point where he should be on his way up.

Webber is already a veteran #2 and is now just wrapping up his F1 career. Vettel out driving Webber to this victory is no surprise considering the way he has dominated him over the past three years. So there is no real harm to Webber other than the obvious seven points.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 25 March 2013 - 23:16.

[Yellowmc]

Race fans? We missed out on absolutely nothing. Rosberg passing Hamilton would have been a simple overtake and he wouldn't have caught the Red Bulls.

Webber got royally screwed.

[choyothe]

Yes, ofcourse. Red Bull wanted to screw Vettel through the entire race and kept giving him, their #1 driver of the past 4 years, bad strategies to keep him behind Webber, the #2 who they weren't even sure they wanted to keep last season.



Nico had at least 3 laps to get ahead of Hamilton but he kept getting passed back in the second DRS zone.

Webber was completely defenseless, they have the same car, yet he was in total conservation mode and Vettel wasn't. It's completely obvious who would get ahead.

Who knows that's what they tried but that's what happened on the track.

How do you know Webber was still in total conservation mode? Certainly didn't look like it looking at the laps around the battle.

[mnmracer]

Webber was completely defenseless, they have the same car, yet he was in total conservation mode and Vettel wasn't. It's completely obvious who would get ahead.

Would you please stop adding lies to this discussion?
Horner said (on BBC) that they were in the same engine mode.
If Webber was in conservation mode while Vettel wasn't, Vettel would have breezed by on the first straight.

Edited by mnmracer, 26 March 2013 - 12:54.

[Sakae]

Vettel has been screwed most. Betrayed by his team, ostracized by media, and now exposed to ridicule; and for what? It is RBR which cultivates this nonsense with Webber for years, giving fertile ground to events like this one.
Horner said that Vettel must be bitter after Silverstone and Brazil; yeah, duuh! Webber never supported Vettel, and the latest from Ecclestone, that Seb might need Webber end of the year to help him is in my opinion big pile of hui. Webber is on the record to side rather with enemy (Alonso), than with his team mate. RBR is thus reaping fruits of what they seeded in the first place. Their type of management simply backfired. I left wondering whether this will be a decision supporting factor when Vettel receives a phone call from an another team.

Rosberg is another one who got screwed, regardless of Hamilton's today polemics.