101 replies to this topic

[learningtobelost]

I must admit that I've found the fallout from the "hold station" team orders today a bit baffling. Personally I don't really care, it's a team sport and it always has been. I really don't understand why people act surprised and outraged when the sort of stuff has been happening up and down the field in EVERY RACE during the 22 years I've been following the sport.

I started thinking about it and I'm pretty sure that if you looked back hard enough you'd find an example of what went on today, or far worse in every grand prix ever held.

So what I'm suggesting is that we try and collectively put together a list of team orders that have occurred in the past to put today's events into perspective.

Working backwards, I'll start:

2013 Malaysia - Vettel ignores team order to hold station after final pitstop. Rosberg told to hold station behind Hamilton after final pitstop.
2013 Australia - DiResta told to hold station behind Sutil as he caught him in the final laps of the race.

[mnmracer]

2013 Malaysia - Vettel ignores team order to hold station after final pitstop. Rosberg told to hold station behind Hamilton after final pitstop.
2013 Australia - DiResta told to hold station behind Sutil as he caught him in the final laps of the race. Complies.
2012 Korea - Massa told to hold station behind Alonso. Complies.
2011 Silverstone - Webber ignores team order to hold station in the last 5 laps of the race.
2012 Germany - Massa told to give up the race win to Alonso. Complies.
2009 Turkey - Vettel told to hold station behind Webber. Complies.
2002 Austria - Barichello told to let Schumacher pass for victory.

[SCUDmissile]

Monza 1978, Villeneuve lets Sheckter win the title.

[Regiotap]

Spa 2005, Montoya easily goes to the pits, so Raikkonen can take the lead.

[encircled]

1998 Belgium - R. Schumacher told to hold position.
2002 Germany - Massa lets Heidfeld past.

Edited by encircled, 24 March 2013 - 12:33.

[Disgrace]

1997 Jerez: McLarens swap.
1998 Australia: McLarens swap.
1999 Sepang: Ferraris swap.
2001 Austria: Ferraris swap, giving Schumacher second.
2001 Japan: McLarens swap.
2005 Belgium: McLarens swap (orchestrated in the pits).
2006 China: Renaults hold station.
2006 Japan: Ferraris swap.
2007 Monaco: McLarens hold station.
2007 Brazil: Ferraris swap, giving Kimi the title.
2008 Canada: Heidfeld gives Kubica the clear air to make his strategy work.
2008 Germany: Kovalainen lets Hamilton through.
2008 China: Ferraris swap.

Bonus team order that never was:

Turkey 2006: Planned Ferrari swap couldn't occur due to safety car and Alonso leaping Schumacher in the pits.

Edited by Disgrace, 24 March 2013 - 12:29.

[Donkey]

Belgium 1998 - Damon Hill persuades Eddie Jordan to make Ralf Schumacher hold station behind him.

[Henri Greuter]

I'm kind of surprised these two haven't mentioned yet, since these created a lot of bad blood.


Brazil 1981: Alan Jones within 7 seconds behind team mate Carlos Reuteman and Reutemann has in his contract that in such occasions a team order to let Jones pass can be given.
Is given but Reutemann doesn't comply.
(Off side note: So much for the stories that Frank Williams never gave team orders....)

France 1982: René Arnoux leading with Alain Prost following almost half a minute behind. Renault orders position swapping becauseProst is better placed in the championship and still has an outside chance to take the title in case the Renault finally becomes reliable. Rene refuses to sacrifice victory in his home grand prix.


Henri

[Sin]

Josh Butler ‏@JoshButlerJB91 1h

No-one complained when Heidfeld had to yield to Kubica at Montreal 2008- costing NH a win (Kubica won). Anger purely because its Vettel #F1

Nick Heidfeld ‏@NickHeidfeld 6m

2008 (officially)no teamorders,ther4 different exposure+complain.(PoorStint:)Could compar pace b4 relvant last pit @anilp228 @joshbutlerjb91

[jj2728]

Go all the way back to the early 1900s and you'll find episodes of team orders in motor sport.

[jj2728]

Monza 1978, Villeneuve lets Sheckter win the title.

That would be 1979.

[garoidb]

I'm kind of surprised these two haven't mentioned yet, since these created a lot of bad blood.


Brazil 1981: Alan Jones within 7 seconds behind team mate Carlos Reuteman and Reutemann has in his contract that in such occasions a team order to let Jones pass can be given.
Is given but Reutemann doesn't comply.
(Off side note: So much for the stories that Frank Williams never gave team orders....)

France 1982: René Arnoux leading with Alain Prost following almost half a minute behind. Renault orders position swapping becauseProst is better placed in the championship and still has an outside chance to take the title in case the Renault finally becomes reliable. Rene refuses to sacrifice victory in his home grand prix.


Henri

These are the most relevant to the Vettel situation because they were ignored. That is the reason they caused so much bad blood!

Pironi vs Villeneuve at Imola 1982 is another example.

Edited by garoidb, 24 March 2013 - 13:19.

[SCUDmissile]

That would be 1979.

yeah, my mistake.

[DampMongoose]

Petersen holding station throughout Andretti's title season but accepted it as contracted number 2.

[ANF]

1993 France – Damon Hill is not allowed to challenge Prost for the lead after having lost it during a pit stop. Damon stays right behind for more than 40 laps and finishes 0.3 seconds behind.

This is going to be a long list...

[GerardF1]

in the running for the worst one - Singapore - Piquet crashes to get Alonso the win


Not sure what you call sitting in your pitbox when the team is telling you to leave - disobeyed team order?

[scheivlak]

This is going to be a long list...

If you include team orders from the 1950s and before it will be immense.

[learningtobelost]

Thanks for the responses guys. The intention really was to perhaps provide a bit of perspective to those that were throwing the dummy out of the pram this morning, but I must admit that it's been fascinating revisiting some of the incidents that I'd completely forgotten about

[Baddoer]

1998 Australia Coulthard had to let Hakkinen through to victory

[ensign14]

Belgium 1998 - Damon Hill persuades Eddie Jordan to make Ralf Schumacher hold station behind him.

The Ralf Schumacher who was never within 10 seconds of Hill until the show car eliminated the gap for him? The Ralf Schumacher who afterwards - eventually - said "Damon was quicker than me all weekend and deserved to win"?

[maverick69]

McLaren 1981-2013:

Short back 'n' sides.

Edited by maverick69, 24 March 2013 - 14:24.

[HistoryFan]

If you include team orders from the 1950s and before it will be immense.

some famous before 1950?

[BoschKurve]

1991- With Nigel Mansell out of the race, Ayrton Senna is told by Ron Dennis to let Gerhard Berger through on the last lap to win the Japanese Grand Prix. Senna does so after the final chicane.

[Sennasational]

2008 Singapore Grand Prix - Nelson Piquet, Jr. ordered to crash to allow Alonso to take advantage of a safety car. Complied.

[maverick69]

2008 Singapore Grand Prix - Nelson Piquet, Jr. ordered to crash to allow Alonso to take advantage of a safety car. Complied.

Lol.

The ultimate!

[GiancarloF1]

2006 Germany - Fisichella given up 14 seconds and a possible podium finish to allow Alonso another single point
2009 Germany - possibly the same case for the Brawn guys

[SCUDmissile]

Back in the fifties, no.2 had to give up their cars in the pits to no. 1s all the time when the no. 1s car broke down. I think Fangio won a title when benifitting from this.

[BoschKurve]

2012- Felipe Massa's gearbox ordered by Ferrari to break so Alonso could get a better starting position, it complies.

[ensign14]

Back in the fifties, no.2 had to give up their cars in the pits to no. 1s all the time when the no. 1s car broke down. I think Fangio won a title when benifitting from this.

He secured one, but the issue is a red herring; either Fangio or his Ferrari team-mate Collins would have won. The swapsie was not to clinch the title, but to try to win the Italian Grand Prix. Moss in a Maserati was ahead and Collins was making no impression; the kudos for winning the home race was pretty important. Ferrari had already asked Musso to swap and he refused, with the inevitable result that Musso binned it battling for the lead. Fangio came from way back to a few seconds from winning.

[PaulTodd]

link

And this. I feel this is what today was like

[Disgrace]

2012- Felipe Massa's gearbox seal ordered by Ferrari to break so Alonso could get a better starting position, it complies.

[Massa]

1997 Jerez - Two laps before the end of the race, Coulthard let pass Hakkinen to win the last race of the season, Jerez.

[SCUDmissile]

He secured one, but the issue is a red herring; either Fangio or his Ferrari team-mate Collins would have won. The swapsie was not to clinch the title, but to try to win the Italian Grand Prix. Moss in a Maserati was ahead and Collins was making no impression; the kudos for winning the home race was pretty important. Ferrari had already asked Musso to swap and he refused, with the inevitable result that Musso binned it battling for the lead. Fangio came from way back to a few seconds from winning.

Did you live through it?
I don't know much about it, I was reading a book on it and I found that interesting how they used to do that. I am sure I read Ascari and Gonzalez benefited from it once also. If you did live through those times, could you tell me if that was the case?

[asmodeo]

Hamilton - Button Turkey 2010. Button disobeyed at first but after a fight with Hamilton and a fuel save message, he obeys.

Edited by asmodeo, 24 March 2013 - 14:57.

[garoidb]

link

And this. I feel this is what today was like

It is the closest analogy, in that team orders were applied, the lead driver believed the second placed driver would comply, but the second placed driver saw an opportunity.

[tarmac]

Maintaining position cant even considered a team order because its too standard

[ensign14]

Did you live through it?
I don't know much about it, I was reading a book on it and I found that interesting how they used to do that. I am sure I read Ascari and Gonzalez benefited from it once also. If you did live through those times, could you tell me if that was the case?

No, it's well explored in the history books and with the application of a little maths. Interestingly Ferrari did it at France 1951, to put Ascari in Gonzalez' car to try to chase down Fangio's Alfa, but at the British GP, with Gonzalez in the lead, Gonzalez made to get out of his car to let Ascari take over - and Alberto pushed him back in it.

Driver swaps were usually to get a better race result, in many cases the championship was irrelevant (e.g. Fangio taking over Fagioli's car at France 1951, Fangio was much the quicker driver), but sometimes because of the conditions (Argentina 1955) or injury (Britain 1957).

Team strategy though is almost as old as the sport. French GP 1914, for example, when the cars were started at intervals, Mercedes took advantage by having their first car off act as a hare, which meant that Boillot, who started ahead of that, found out at the end of lap 2 he was off the lead - and ended up breaking his car to catch. The rabbit (Salzer) didn't make it to 75%, but three remaining Mercs came 1st, 2nd and 3rd...

[midgrid]

1997 Jerez - Two laps before the end of the race, Coulthard let pass Hakkinen to win the last race of the season, Jerez.

Villeneuve also allegedly let the McLarens through on the last lap because they had delayed Schumacher earlier in the race during the pit-stop phases, as there was a pact between Williams and McLaren to prevent Ferrari from winning the championship if possible. Intra-team orders?

[garoidb]

Maintaining position cant even considered a team order because its too standard

Well, it is literally a team order and has always been understood to be covered by that phrase. If you want to make a finer distinction, you need to come up with a new term.

[WilliamsFWPH]

Villeneuve also allegedly let the McLarens through on the last lap because they had delayed Schumacher earlier in the race during the pit-stop phases, as there was a pact between Williams and McLaren to prevent Ferrari from winning the championship if possible. Intra-team orders?

Wrong, Schummy was never behind a McLaren during that race, it was Frentzen who slowed him down.

[Sausage]

Villeneuve also allegedly let the McLarens through on the last lap because they had delayed Schumacher earlier in the race during the pit-stop phases, as there was a pact between Williams and McLaren to prevent Ferrari from winning the championship if possible. Intra-team orders?

Same race also had the alledged block of Villeneuve by Fontana in his Sauber per direct orders of Todt, according to Fontana himself. Peter Sauber denied this. http://www.dailymoti...to#.UU868Ffuolc

[WBarnato]

Another classic was Patrese letting Mansell through on lap 21 of the 1992 French Grand Prix. The explanation's were quite blatent too:

"He waved me through, buy he won't tell me why" (said Mansell).

"Let's say that Nigel was pressing me very hard and I thought it was the best for the team to let him go" (said Patrese).

[Mr2s]

I must admit that I've found the fallout from the "hold station" team orders today a bit baffling. Personally I don't really care, it's a team sport and it always has been. I really don't understand why people act surprised and outraged when the sort of stuff has been happening up and down the field in EVERY RACE during the 22 years I've been following the sport.

I started thinking about it and I'm pretty sure that if you looked back hard enough you'd find an example of what went on today, or far worse in every grand prix ever held.

So what I'm suggesting is that we try and collectively put together a list of team orders that have occurred in the past to put today's events into perspective.

Working backwards, I'll start:

2013 Malaysia - Vettel ignores team order to hold station after final pitstop. Rosberg told to hold station behind Hamilton after final pitstop.
2013 Australia - DiResta told to hold station behind Sutil as he caught him in the final laps of the race.

No offence but this is pointless. the rules have not been consistent enough to compare over the decades and there are now 3 completely different types of team order being talked about in the same vain.

[Collombin]

He secured one, but the issue is a red herring

He did of course take over Collins' car in Monaco too, and got a 2nd from it.

I agree it's a red herring though, because although Moss was only 2 or 3 points behind at season's end, he took over from a team mate a couple of times too. I think it would be impossible to say who would have been champion without car swapping (especially as we don't know where the fastest lap points would have gone), but also revisionist. It was a perfectly normal part of the game.

The guy I always felt sorry for was Bill Holland, as an Indy 500 rookie in 1947. He was leading his team mate in a 1-2, they were told to hold position, but the team mate overtook Holland and won the race. Holland only thought he was being unlapped, not overtaken, and so was a little shocked at the end to discover that he had not become the first rookie winner at Indy for 20 years, but instead had seemingly been stitched up by his team mate and indeed his team.

Earlier in the race, an error of his had led to another driver crashing to his death, so all in all you could say it was a bad day at the office.

[learningtobelost]

No offence but this is pointless. the rules have not been consistent enough to compare over the decades and there are now 3 completely different types of team order being talked about in the same vain.

None taken. However the point that is being made is that it doesn't matter what the rules are, team orders have always been here and always will be.

[Les]

Yeah indeed team orders are as old as Grand Prix racing itself. However I can't think of too many incidents where a driver disobeyed team orders like today and certainly not before the 80s although you can correct me if I'm wrong which I probably am! Where drivers went against team orders I know of:

81 - Reutemann beats Jones in Brazil
82 - The infamous Pironi/Villeneuve one, Arnoux beats Prost at Paul Ricard.
89 - Senna on Prost at Imola

Also the Bill Holland one as answered a couple of posts above

Then I can't think of anymore similar one until todays 'I'll take the points then issue a meaningless apology' one.

Edited by Les, 24 March 2013 - 18:22.

[learningtobelost]

Another classic was Patrese letting Mansell through on lap 21 of the 1992 French Grand Prix. The explanation's were quite blatent too:

"He waved me through, buy he won't tell me why" (said Mansell).

"Let's say that Nigel was pressing me very hard and I thought it was the best for the team to let him go" (said Patrese).

If I recall correctly Mansell returned the favour during his title year on a couple of occasions, Patrase's car letting him down at least once after being waved by.

[midgrid]

Wrong, Schummy was never behind a McLaren during that race, it was Frentzen who slowed him down.

Schumacher was behind Hakkinen after his first stop, although admittedly both were behind Frentzen at the time. But both McLaren drivers were instructed not to interfere in the title battle (i.e. by challenging Frentzen at this point or beforehand), hence Villeneuve surrendering his lead easily on the last lap as payback.

[WilliamsFWPH]

Schumacher was behind Hakkinen after his first stop, although admittedly both were behind Frentzen at the time. But both McLaren drivers were instructed not to interfere in the title battle (i.e. by challenging Frentzen at this point or beforehand), hence Villeneuve surrendering his lead easily on the last lap as payback.

Not interfering is not quite - delaying - isn't it?


Fontana's case is quite different.

Edited by WilliamsFWPH, 24 March 2013 - 18:50.

[Atreiu]

What do you guys make of Massa gearbox grid penalty from Austin last year? Does it count?