102 replies to this topic

[mnmracer]

Wow...
I can't remember there being so much drama after Webber ignored teamorders in Silverstone '11, but for some reason the whole F1 circus is imploding because Vettel gave the viewers a race rather than a progression.

Thinking back to a certain driver who said "if you no longer go for a gap that exists you are no longer a racing driver because we are competing, we are competing to win", it got me thinking, what other drivers would have also gone for the win in this situation?

Edited by mnmracer, 24 March 2013 - 12:08.

[KavB]

I think Alonso, Hamilton and Raikkonen would have.

[SpartanChas]

They would more likely have told the team first.

[Cenotaph]

I think Alonso, Hamilton and Raikkonen would have.

Well, I'm not sure about Raikkonen, but Webber would certainly have.

[choyothe]

Alonso, Hamilton, Kimi maybe. Maldonado ( ) for sure.

Oh yes, Webber of course. How could I have forgotten him.

Edited by choyothe, 24 March 2013 - 12:12.

[Disgrace]

Webber.

[Diablobb81]

The most obvious candidate would have been the "victim" of today : Mark Webber. Aussie Grit : can dish but can't take it.

[NotSoSilentBob]

Only the dirtiest of the Germans.

[Taxi]

Alonso. Probably Webber himself. Not Raikkonen/Button, and i'm undecided about Hamilton. Oh and Maldonado/Grosjean would try and take both out.

[choyothe]

The most obvious candidate would have been the "victim" of today : Mark Webber. Aussie Grit : can dish but can't take it.

Nice, can I use this on my sig?

[IamFasterthanU]

Well the issue today was Webber was saving fuel and tires when seb went for it that is what pissed webber.

[Nonesuch]

Let's not forget Button, he did so in Turkey 2010. The FOM race montage from that race is hilarious.

Lewis: "If I back off, is Jenson gonna pass me or not?"
Team: "No Lewis, no."
*cuts to Button overtaking Hamilton*

[SteF1an]

Well the issue today was Webber was saving fuel and tires when seb went for it that is what pissed webber.

http://www.f1fanatic...er-pass-vettel/

[LiJu914]

http://www.f1fanatic...er-pass-vettel/

Interesting poll results:

Were Red Bull right to order Webber not to pass Vettel?

Yes (21%)
No (76%)
No opinion (3%)


I wonder if the result would turn out roughly the same today....

[mindmill]

As ironic as it sounds ... Webber.

[JBonnierII]

One thing for sure is that Rosberg wouldn't have done it.

[MarileneRiddle]

The most obvious candidate would have been the "victim" of today : Mark Webber. Aussie Grit : can dish but can't take it.

Webber, Jenson, Hamilton, Alonso, Maldonado...

The same drivers most claim are 'racers'.

[Astro]

This is an apologetic thread. Vettel did it, and it was unfair to Webber. The team ordered them to turn down the engines (multi 21), and today Vettel decided that rules didn't seat well with him anymore. You are fine with it or you don't, but don't try to make it OK somehow by putting other drivers in the same basket.

[mnmracer]

This is an apologetic thread. Vettel did it, and it was unfair to Webber. The team ordered them to turn down the engines (multi 21), and today Vettel decided that rules didn't seat well with him anymore. You are fine with it or you don't, but don't try to make it OK somehow by putting other drivers in the same basket.

You think it was unfair to Webber.
Throughout history, most have thought teamorders are unfair.

If you think none of the other champions would have done it, than that's your answer, but you are alone in that naivity.

[saraaa]

I think everyone except Rosberg and maybe Button would have done it. That is why these guys are world champions, because they care for themselves and always want to win.

[Astro]

You think it was unfair to Webber.
Throughout history, most have thought teamorders are unfair.

If you think none of the other champions would have done it, than that's your answer, but you are alone in that naivity.

I don't think team orders are unfair. I think team orders must be accepted by both drivers or by neither of them. But that was not the point I was trying to make. What I don't agree about this thread is to try to be apologetic about what Vettel has done by bringing other drivers into the mix. There will be plenty of time to talk about controversies from other drivers during the season.

Edited by Astro, 24 March 2013 - 13:33.

[NotSoSilentBob]

Only Schumacher, Senna, and Alonso.

And if it was Webber, I dont think Alonso would have done it.

[MikeTekRacing]

certainly not rosberg. other than that......

[DutchCruijff]

Schumacher ignoring team orders? I highly doubt it, this was the same guy he obeyed team orders for Merc last year and was the same guy who handed Barrichello multiple victories, something which, as per, 'tards seem to forget, and the same guy who helped Irvine in '99.

[garoidb]

You missed Didier Pironi.

[jerriy]

Based on past evidence: Webber

[Wingnut]

I think everyone except Rosberg and maybe Button would have done it. That is why these guys are world champions, because they care for themselves and always want to win.

Button tried it on with Hamilton, so you can probably count him out too. Having said that, I think most drivers would not ignore their team principal when it comes to 'hold position' orders.

[Deluxx]

I think if Webber knew that Seb was going to do this he wouldn't have backed off the pace to save fuel/equipment in the first place.... So I'm sure many would overtake if they had the chance, and the drive to win like Seb does.

Like it or not, I'm sure many drivers would given the chance.

Edited by Deluxx, 24 March 2013 - 13:55.

[2ms]

Red Bull shouldn't have tried to command one of their drivers to stay behind and let the other win from so early in the race. Who knows how many other drivers would have done the same thing. Bone head move by Red Bull.

[SonJR]

I voted Senna, Villeneuve, Mansell, Alonso and Webber. Webber clearly showed during Silverstone 2011 that he has no problems ignoring team orders, even if that was quite a different situation. He already feels like a #2 at RBR anyways, so he just seems to be only looking out for number one (himself, in this case).

I think Prost and Schumacher wouldn't ignore team-orders. They might throw a fit internally afterwards, but they've both always been (well, except for when Senna was around at McLaren) teamplayers. Certainly this early in the season they would've had faith in their own abilities to make up for the 'lost' points later in the season.

Hamilton would probably tweet about how mad he was about it and show his unhappiness over the radio, but wouldn't go against his team. Button, KR and NR aren't the type to go against their teambosses either. They'd stew, sure, but resign to it.

As for the Senna quote, "if you no longer go for a gap that exists you are no longer a racing driver because we are competing, we are competing to win", it's a nice one, but I always take it with a pinch of salt seeing as he used it to justify purposely running Prost off track.

EDIT: not a fan of team orders by the way, but being pragmatic they are part of the sport an unavoidable.

Edited by SonJR, 24 March 2013 - 14:45.

[Baddoer]

Probably only Narain Karthykeyan is badass enough.

[choyothe]

Red Bull shouldn't have tried to command one of their drivers to stay behind and let the other win from so early in the race. Who knows how many other drivers would have done the same thing. Bone head move by Red Bull.

I agree, RB definitely failed pretty badly as a team in this one.

[speednerd]

I think everyone except Rosberg and maybe Button would have done it. That is why these guys are world champions, because they care for themselves and always want to win.

I can't imagine Massa, or indeed any #2 driver at Ferrari doing the same.

[jrg19]

Jenson, similar situation as today, he tried and failed Turkey 2010.

Edited by jrg19, 24 March 2013 - 15:17.

[S3baman]

Schumacher ignoring team orders? I highly doubt it, this was the same guy he obeyed team orders for Merc last year and was the same guy who handed Barrichello multiple victories, something which, as per, 'tards seem to forget, and the same guy who helped Irvine in '99.

True. For all the fuss about how Michael was always number #1 and got preferential treatment, there's no better counter than Malaysia 99. Came back after breaking his legs, put an entire second on the second best in qualy, led the race for the most part yet he still gave the win to Irvine for the title fight.

[SpaMaster]

The most obvious candidate would have been the "victim" of today : Mark Webber. Aussie Grit : can dish but can't take it.

Exactly.

There is no need for "would have" for Webber. He already has. What Vettel did was wrong. But Webber is hypocritical to complain about it. He did the same to Vettel at Silverstone.

[whitewaterMkII]

I don't see an "all of the above"
F*** team orders, fastest guy wins, and it wasn't Webber. Tough cookies.

[Fondmetal]

Probably only Narain Karthykeyan is badass enough.

Narain could get his own back on Vettel and call him a cucumber for what he did today!!

[George Costanza]

Schumacher ignoring team orders? I highly doubt it, this was the same guy he obeyed team orders for Merc last year and was the same guy who handed Barrichello multiple victories, something which, as per, 'tards seem to forget, and the same guy who helped Irvine in '99.

Indeed.

[Gene and Tonic]

If Senna was racing today he would be despised on this forum

Edited by Gene and Tonic, 24 March 2013 - 16:01.

[Watkins74]

Hamilton - He ignored the team agreement in qualifying 2007 so he has done it before.

[AJFIN]

Maybe Schumacher pre-Ferrari would have, but not after that.

[Fontainebleau]

With all due respect, this thread looks like an attempt to deflect criticism from Vettel's actions by trying to project his misdoings on those drivers each one of the posters here dislike.

[Bruce]

With all due respect, this thread looks like an attempt to deflect criticism from Vettel's actions by trying to project his misdoings on those drivers each one of the posters here dislike.

[tabovilla]

aw come on, if ordered alonso would not pass a teammate, good god

[RaikkonenZn]

So basically who would've been ruthless enough to go for the win and ignore the team orders?

Hmm well - Prost, Schumacher and Alonso probably. Senna would've depending on his relationship with Webber!

aw come on, if ordered alonso would not pass a teammate, good god

Err dude - that all depends on what Alonsos relationship with the team is - if he is in a team that gives equal status and he feels undermined by it, I can very well see him doing it - lest we forget what he did at Macca!

[surbjits]

Schumacher ignoring team orders? I highly doubt it, this was the same guy he obeyed team orders for Merc last year and was the same guy who handed Barrichello multiple victories, something which, as per, 'tards seem to forget, and the same guy who helped Irvine in '99.

True team player

[Spillage]

Everyone on that list except Villeneuve, Button and Rosberg, in my opinion. F1 champions manipulate everything they can in their favour; if team orders come their way, they accept them; if they work against them, they ignore them. It is such a hyper-competitive and ruthless world that hypocrisy is common, arguably even necessary.

[halifaxf1fan]

Webber would be the first to ignore the TO.

[Kingshark]

Wow...
I can't remember there being so much drama after Webber ignored teamorders in Silverstone '11, but for some reason the whole F1 circus is imploding because Vettel gave the viewers a race rather than a progression.

Actually, it's because he was acting like a hypocrite this race. About 20 laps before this incident, Vettel was whining for team orders on the Red Bull pit radio.

"Mark is too slow, get him out of the way."

Then, when it's his turn to obey some team orders, he refuses.

Amazing, isn't it? Red Bull have paid him thousands of euros to support his karting career, millions to support his career in Formula junior; and have given him 3 WDC. Then, the first team order he receives since Turkey '09, he ignores.

What a spoiled brat.

http://www.f1fanatic...-victory-proud/

Then he claims he's not proud of this win; a race in which he was both begging for team orders, and ignored the orders from the team when it was his turn!

He comes across so fake in the media, although I have to give him credit; his smiley self has done well to hide the jackass and hypocrite personality he really is.