191 replies to this topic

[rasul]

All right, I know everyone is talking about whether Mark is leaving RBR after this season or not.

But what if it's the other way around?

It's the first time I've seen RBR not being supportive of Vettel, and being so public about it. Only a few weeks ago, Mateschitz said:

"If it would not work out with us anymore it would be senseless to try to keep him (Vettel) just because of a valid contract," Mateschitz told Autosport.

"If I were an F1 driver, my desire would certainly be to become a Ferrari driver.

"But right now this is no issue."

He also said that Webber isn't #2(which ended up being true, as we've seen today).
So could it be that it's not Mark leaving but Vettel, and that's why RB are suddenly so supportive of Mark? Usually Horner & Marko always support Vettel no matter what, but now they're all of a sudden siding not with their 3 times WDC but with Webber. I find it odd and out of character, especially coming from Marko.

Just a thought. What do you think?

[TheUltimateWorrier]

Perhaps he's going to Mercedes next year, so Lowe, Wolff, Lauda and all the rest of the management team can manage two roosters (Hamilton and Vettel) in the hen house. Just kidding.

But you might be onto something though.

Edited by TheUltimateWorrier, 24 March 2013 - 15:37.

[Juggles]

I think it's more a case of Vettel's actions being completely indefensible. I'm surprised Helmut Marko didn't have a go though.

[NotSoSilentBob]

They're siding with Webber because he's right to be pissed off. If even Helmut Marko's got a problem with Vettel's actions....

/End of thread

[Jimisgod]

I think it's more a case of Vettel's actions being completely indefensible. I'm surprised Helmut Marko didn't have a go though.

I think Mateschitz realizes that Vettel is not well liked by the public. He is fast and a definite winner, but RBR is there as a marketing tool first and foremost.

Lewis, Alonso, Button, Kimi all have their quirks but most are very well liked by most of the public and are fast. The public have not warmed to Vettel. Hence why RBR were exploring options with Lewis. Horner probably nixed the chance for Lewis to go to RBR because he doesn't want to upset his own Newey - Vettel - Horner team.

[rasul]

I think it's more a case of Vettel's actions being completely indefensible. I'm surprised Helmut Marko didn't have a go though.

The fact that Marko didn't take Vettel's side is what surprises me the most. Vettel's actions aren't indefensible. If the team sided with him or allowed him to race Webber, he wouldn't have gotten all this sh*t for his overtake -- at least not to this degree. But they didn't, allowing their champion's reputation to suffer. Very odd, coming from Marko.

[Sin]

I think Mateschitz realizes that Vettel is not well liked by the public. He is fast and a definite winner, but RBR is there as a marketing tool first and foremost.

Lewis, Alonso, Button, Kimi all have their quirks but most are very well liked by most of the public and are fast. The public have not warmed to Vettel. Hence why RBR were exploring options with Lewis. Horner probably nixed the chance for Lewis to go to RBR because he doesn't want to upset his own Newey - Vettel - Horner team.

One moment you calling ALONSO of all people liked by the public? He is not more liked than Sebastian... Sebastian is the most popular driver in germany (now that Schumi is gone).... at the moment. If he would be out of F1.... then the viewing figures here would sink even more now that Schumacher is gone as well... Germany is a strong economy I'm not sure if F1 or RB want to loose that market.... they would have an option taking Hülk instead of Vettel... but Vettel didn't do something that terribly wrong that he would be thrown out of a team, where he usually feels good.

If he leaves then by his own decision

Edited by Sin, 24 March 2013 - 15:51.

[aditya-now]

The fact that Marko didn't take Vettel's side is what surprises me the most. Vettel's actions aren't indefensible. If the team sided with him or allowed him to race Webber, he wouldn't have gotten all this sh*t for his overtake -- at least not to this degree. But they didn't, allowing their champion's reputation to suffer. Very odd, coming from Marko.

Very obviously even Helmut Marko was taken aback by this professional foul by Vettel.

[MikeV1987]

I think Mateschitz realizes that Vettel is not well liked by the public. He is fast and a definite winner, but RBR is there as a marketing tool first and foremost.

Lewis, Alonso, Button, Kimi all have their quirks but most are very well liked by most of the public and are fast. The public have not warmed to Vettel. Hence why RBR were exploring options with Lewis. Horner probably nixed the chance for Lewis to go to RBR because he doesn't want to upset his own Newey - Vettel - Horner team.

The British public may not have warmed to him but that is no surprise. Red Bull werent exploring new options with Hamilton at all, they DENIED him.

[Wolf]

I don't think in this instance whether drivers go or stay at the team matters. Team is not backing Webber- they're backing their own call. Drivers were told to hold position and they were expected to comply- Vettel may not care whether he pisses Webber off or not, but I think he should tread carefully when it comes to pissing off Newey and the whole team as he did today.

Edited by Wolf, 24 March 2013 - 15:55.

[Juggles]

The fact that Marko didn't take Vettel's side is what surprises me the most. Vettel's actions aren't indefensible. If the team sided with him or allowed him to race Webber, he wouldn't have gotten all this sh*t for his overtake -- at least not to this degree. But they didn't, allowing their champion's reputation to suffer. Very odd, coming from Marko.

They are. He knew his teammate had turned his car down and took advantage of that fact to pass him. I don't like team orders and it would be different if Webber had actually known Vettel was gunning for him because he could have defended; Vettel still would have disobeyed team orders but that's it. What he actually did was take advantage of Webber's trust in him, and that is unforgivable.

Anyway, Marko hardly came out all guns blazing in defence of Webber. In the interview I saw he sounded pretty non-committal. He has to realise that if he came out in direct support of Vettel today he would become even more of a laughing stock.

Edited by Juggles, 24 March 2013 - 16:01.

[aray]

Seb has contract till end 2016....and no way they will let their 3 time WDC go..

I think RB knowingly screwed Webber...Vettel couldn't pass him until last stop...hence they asked Webber to tune down his engine and gave Vettel chance to pass him...rest are pure drama....they are well aware that Webber defended Seb last year even when he had no chance for WDC..hence this year they have prepared right from the start..prepared Seb for that too....only drama has been played publicly....

[Zava]

They are. He knew his teammate had turned his car down and took advantage of that fact to pass him. I don't like team orders and it would be different if Webber had actually known Vettel was gunning for him because he could have defended.

oh come on!
Webber exited the pit on lap 44, some tenths in front of Vettel, who was attacking him right away. the overtake happened on lap 46, so 2 laps and some corners later. surely Webber's reaction time is good enough to realize in 2 lap's time that Vettel is attacking, it is not smart to be saving fuel and tyres at the moment?

and to top it off: in between the first overtaking attempt and the actual overtake, on lap 45, both of them posted their best laps of the race, those laps were accidentally back-to-back FL-s at the time (well, Webber's fastest lap stood for a second or so ) I don't think that was in eco mode.

[rasul]

Very obviously even Helmut Marko was taken aback by this professional foul by Vettel.

Maybe you are right, but I don't think so, to be honest. Something seems off. If Vettel was their long-term star, it wouldn't do RBR any good if his reputation suffers. The only thing they had to do to prevent that was to let Webber and Vettel race each other, instead of forbidding it(which is at this point of the season is very odd as well). Hell, he won 3 WDCs with them. If it were Ferrari, they would have never forbidden their triple WDC from overtaking Webber/Massa/etc, trusting his judgement. The fact that RB clearly cared very little for Vettel's WDC standings is what confuses me. They should have cared more. 7 points is no joking matter, as the 2012 season proved.

They are. He knew his teammate had turned his car down and took advantage of that fact to pass him. I don't like team orders and it would be different if Webber had actually known Vettel was gunning for him because he could have defended; Vettel still would have disobeyed team orders but that's it. What he actually did was take advantage of Webber's trust in him, and that is unforgivable.

Come on, I don't think Mark is that naive that he didn't guess Vettel was going to overtake him when he closed the gap. And that's not the point.

Edited by rasul, 24 March 2013 - 16:12.

[DutchQuicksilver]

But in the end Red Bull is still a marketing tool for Mateschitz. Earlier Coulthard and Webber had a lot more going for them which make them fit with the brand Red Bull. Vettel doesn't have this so called X factor, so I wouldn't be surprised if Vettel leaves in the end. Someone like Hamilton or Raikkonen fits that Red Bull marketing image a lot more and both are very good, if not quicker, than Vettel as well, so Red Bull wouldn't lose that much.

Edited by DutchQuicksilver, 24 March 2013 - 16:13.

[bourbon]

I did wonder:

Why didn't RBR tell Seb to give the place back during that final 15 laps?
Why didn't Mark turn his engine back up and try to take the place back on his own, seeing as he had the newer tyres?

I don't think it has anything to do with Seb's contract term. I also thought he was in through 2014, not 2016. The latter was a rumor that was ultimately denied by all parties.

Edited by bourbon, 24 March 2013 - 16:23.

[choyothe]

oh come on!
Webber exited the pit on lap 44, some tenths in front of Vettel, who was attacking him right away. the overtake happened on lap 46, so 2 laps and some corners later. surely Webber's reaction time is good enough to realize in 2 lap's time that Vettel is attacking, it is not smart to be saving fuel and tyres at the moment?

and to top it off: in between the first overtaking attempt and the actual overtake, on lap 45, both of them posted their best laps of the race, those laps were accidentally back-to-back FL-s at the time (well, Webber's fastest lap stood for a second or so ) I don't think that was in eco mode.

And Mark actually got a decent look the next time on DRS, no way is he able to stay that close through a lap without full power from the engine. I'm starting to lean towards Webber having full power during their battle as well.

[Hairy]

One moment you calling ALONSO of all people liked by the public? He is not more liked than Sebastian... Sebastian is the most popular driver in germany (now that Schumi is gone).... at the moment. If he would be out of F1.... then the viewing figures here would sink even more now that Schumacher is gone as well... Germany is a strong economy I'm not sure if F1 or RB want to loose that market.... they would have an option taking Hülk instead of Vettel... but Vettel didn't do something that terribly wrong that he would be thrown out of a team, where he usually feels good.

If he leaves then by his own decision

Germany isn't a strong area for F1, as it struggles each year to get the funds to host a race and there really isn't a German team, given Red Bull is out of Milton Keynes, and Mercedes out of Brackley. Germany is a very, very small piece of the F1 jigsaw, and more so very small in the eyes of a global company like Red Bull.

It's very telling Marko had a crack at Vettel.

[Sakae]

All right, I know everyone is talking about whether Mark is leaving RBR after this season or not.

But what if it's the other way around?

It's the first time I've seen RBR not being supportive of Vettel, and being so public about it. Only a few weeks ago, Mateschitz said:

He also said that Webber isn't #2(which ended up being true, as we've seen today).
So could it be that it's not Mark leaving but Vettel, and that's why RB are suddenly so supportive of Mark? Usually Horner & Marko always support Vettel no matter what, but now they're all of a sudden siding not with their 3 times WDC but with Webber. I find it odd and out of character, especially coming from Marko.

Just a thought. What do you think?

For a second today I thought the same, but this is knee jerk reaction to something which we aren't used to. Usually it's Webber who is screwing up Vettel (in my column anyway). Potential departure also contradicts some rumors from a few days ago, that RB wants Vettel to sign up extension to his contract. Was it perhaps on that occasion when he told them "No way Jose, I have red contract under my pillow"?

Edited by Sakae, 24 March 2013 - 16:41.

[muramasa]

Seb out and Kamui in!

[Sakae]

Seb Webber out and Kamui in!

[garoidb]

I think Mateschitz realizes that Vettel is not well liked by the public. He is fast and a definite winner, but RBR is there as a marketing tool first and foremost.

Lewis, Alonso, Button, Kimi all have their quirks but most are very well liked by most of the public and are fast. The public have not warmed to Vettel. Hence why RBR were exploring options with Lewis. Horner probably nixed the chance for Lewis to go to RBR because he doesn't want to upset his own Newey - Vettel - Horner team.

I don't know whether you are right about that or not, to be honest. I would be interested to know how his popularity in Germany compares to Michael's in his glory days. He is having a similar, if not higher, level of success.

[fabr68]

I don't think Red Bull was siding with Webber. They were just executing a very frequent team order to protect their 1-2 finish. The only anomaly was Vettel being behind Webber and not the other way around like in the previous ocasions.

They were lucky Webber didnt protect harder causing a collision.

Edited by fabr68, 24 March 2013 - 16:55.

[tormave]

1. Why didn't RBR tell Seb to give the place back during that final 15 laps?
2. Why didn't Mark turn his engine back up and try to take the place back on his own, seeing as he had the newer tyres?

1. Horner said it: if he took the lead against team orders, he wouldn't give it back
2. Webber understood why the team order was given: to secure a 1-2 for the team; starting on-track war against Vettel and the team would've probably ended in tears for everyone. He didn't retaliate despite believing team wouldn't punish Vettel in any way.

[Hairy]

Vettel isn't big in other countries because he's a RBR driver. If any other "nobody" driver became a triple WDC with RBR(who has very little fans), it wouldn't change a thing. As someone who travels a lot, I can say it with certainty. Fans from neutral countries usually cheer for Ferrari and McLaren drivers(and when they leave the teams, leave with them to become their personal fans). When/If Vettel becomes a Ferrari or McLaren driver, he will become very popular worldwide; I'm absolutely certain of it.

I'd agree with Ferrari, for they truly are a Global brand, and he'd be feted by their fans. Not currently though.

[apoka]

Why didn't Mark turn his engine back up and try to take the place back on his own, seeing as he had the newer tyres?

He most likely did that.

[apoka]

I don't know what will happen, but if RB would force out Vettel based on today's race, that would not exactly help their WDC/WCC chances - and it would be an extreme overreaction, which is why I think everything will settle again soon.

Edited by apoka, 24 March 2013 - 17:14.

[Hairy]

I don't know what will happen, but if RB would force out Vettel based on today's race, that would not exactly help their WDC/WCC chances - and it would be an extreme overreaction, which is why I think everything will settle again soon.

I think we'll see Webber quit to be honest, or swap to another team. I think this would have been the straw that broke him, if I were being honest.

Vettel is quick, and has all season to win the WDC, and it just simply paints him in an incredibly bad light. The absolute disdain he showed for his team mate in the earlier radio message was disgusting too, and that seems to have been brushed under the carpet too. I think what few fans he did have, will have had their eyes opened a little by his antics today, and rightfully so.

[choyothe]

He most likely did that.

Even before Vettel passed him would be my guess.

[V8 Fireworks]

The fact that RB clearly cared very little for Vettel's WDC standings is what confuses me. They should have cared more. 7 points is no joking matter, as the 2012 season proved.

Webber is usually competitive in the first half of the WDC and sometimes the leading RBR driver after this period. It's only after the mid season break that it usually turns to crap.

Webber is also trying to win WDC, although again it will probably turn to crap after the mid-season break as usual, which is fine.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 24 March 2013 - 17:24.

[OneAndOnly]

Vettel showed great disrespect for the team so I guess this is just their reaction to that. No matter how great driver is, he cannot put him self above the team. Obviously they want him to learn that lesson.

[Diablobb81]

Vettel showed great disrespect for the team so I guess this is just their reaction to that. No matter how great driver is, he cannot put him self above the team. Obviously they want him to learn that lesson.

Simple as that.

[H2H]

If we look at the way they treated Mark after Silverstone 2011 I would say: no. And it is pretty much impossible to replace the arguably best driver of the sport.

[rasul]

Webber is usually competitive in the first half of the WDC and sometimes the leading RBR driver after this period. It's only after the mid season break that it usually turns to crap.

Webber is also trying to win WDC, although again it will probably turn to crap after the mid-season break as usual, which is fine.

You're right. But I'm not saying they should have ordered Mark to give up his position. They just should have let them race, fair and square. Vettel is trying to win WDC, too, after all. All emotions aside, isn't it smarter to invest in the driver who actually won 3 WDCs in a row for them? I always believed RB had a clear #1 and #2 policy after the 2010 season, no matter what they said. They always clearly preferred Vettel to Webber. But now, after three years, it suddenly changed and now suddenly they aren't letting Vettel overtake Webber, using some dubious excuse. What are they, rookies? They know the car's limits and they both finished despite the close racing.
That's what I find odd.

Edited by rasul, 24 March 2013 - 17:45.

[Sin]

I will go back on this discussion since indeed I am no expert and I admit I could be wrong, but yes I found it hard to believe that germany is so unimportant for F1... and it doesn't matter where an engine is made, as long as it is owned by a german company... if there are more attractive series to put your money in than F1 .... that will happen.... F1 isn't in its best state.... and its easier to keep germany than get into america....


but yeah I won't say more on it like I said I'm no expert

[weston]

I don't know what will happen, but if RB would force out Vettel based on today's race, that would not exactly help their WDC/WCC chances - and it would be an extreme overreaction, which is why I think everything will settle again soon.

Button was not forced out of McLaren for what he did in Turkey in 2010. IMO the question is somewhere else. Vettel-like successful people often look nice and patient but when they are treated like a remote controller they usually make 'uncharacteristic' decisions. From outside it looks like the fracture is small but I will not be surprised if he really starts to look for another team and that Ferrari thing really starts to evolve into something if Alonso cannot deliver a WDC or WCC for them in 2013.

Boys must be men to become great champions. In the coming two years we'll see Vettel maturing and becoming a man.

Edited by weston, 24 March 2013 - 17:57.

[Sakae]

You're right. But I'm not saying they should have ordered Mark to give up his position. They just should have let them race, fair and square. Vettel is trying to win WDC, too, after all. All emotions aside, isn't it smarter to invest in the driver who actually won 3 WDCs in a row for them? I always believed RB had a clear #1 and #2 policy after the 2010 season, no matter what they said. They always clearly preferred Vettel to Webber. But now, after three years, it suddenly changed and now suddenly they aren't letting Vettel overtake Webber, using some dubious excuse. What are they, rookies? They know the car's limits and they both finished despite the close racing.
That's what I find odd.

Dubious excuses is probably right, because neither of two drivers was relatively slowing down as Mercedes duo has. I wonder then what were the real reasons behind this.

[SonJR]

Even before Vettel passed him would be my guess.

I concur. I wonder if Vettel was told to turn down his engine before Webber made his final stop though. Iirc, Webber had a bigger lead than just a few tenths prior to that. As for Webber turning his engine back up: seeing as Vettel was on the quicker tyres and within DRS range, he was always going to get Webber.

[fastlegs]

Just a thought. What do you think?

After Vettel's selfish stunt today I say good riddance to him.

[w00dy]

I think they wanted Vettel in p1 but didn't want to gut Mark with the #2 so early in the season so they put up some charades - tuning down Mark's engine, telling Vettel that the overtake was silly etc.
This explains why Horner didn't ask Vettel to give the position back during the last 15 laps.

Then the environment started to turn against Vettel. He even warned Mark to discuss the issue privately on the podium, before the interviews, but Mark was pissed, let the whole world know how he was in engine-save mode etc. Vettel started babbling about mistakes and not deliberate overtake. Since then they try to pull the scraps together, reassure Mark, that's why even Marko is condemning Vettel. But in 3-4 weeks time he will be the win hungry ballsy guy who couldn't resist the win. Hopefully by this time Mark has announced that he is leaving RB at the end of 2013, because of this and past issues.

[rasul]

Dubious excuses is probably right, because neither of two drivers was relatively slowing down as Mercedes duo has. I wonder then what were the real reasons behind this.

Yes, the whole thing seemed off. If it were Vettel in Webber's place, I would have just thought they were doing everything for his win. Never expected that from RBR.

After Vettel's selfish stunt today I say good riddance to him.

There are very few F1 WDCs who aren't selfish.

[Sakae]

I think they wanted Vettel in p1 but didn't want to gut Mark with the #2 so early in the season so they put up some charades - tuning down Mark's engine, telling Vettel that the overtake was silly etc.
This explains why Horner didn't ask Vettel to give the position back during the last 15 laps.

Then the environment started to turn against Vettel. He even warned Mark to discuss the issue privately on the podium, before the interviews, but Mark was pissed, let the whole world know how he was in engine-save mode etc. Vettel started babbling about mistakes and not deliberate overtake. Since then they try to pull the scraps together, reassure Mark, that's why even Marko is condemning Vettel. But in 3-4 weeks time he will be the win hungry ballsy guy who couldn't resist the win. Hopefully by this time Mark has announced that he is leaving RB at the end of 2013, because of this and past issues.

From post race interview momentarily I got an impression that Horner was almost admitting that in asking Vettel to slow down, he was at risk that Vettel will not obey him, whole issue will grow bigger than it is already, and also, how media would have (mis)interpreted what's happening.

[One]

Yes, the whole thing seemed off. If it were Vettel in Webber's place, I would have just thought they were doing everything for his win. Never expected that from RBR.



There are very few F1 WDCs who aren't selfish.

True.

Red Bull managements are equal to none existence. Vettel will do whatever he wants and the whole team including The Boss just do brawn noses, clean the **** that the boy is doing.

This is what Malkop want.

This is the reason as to why I stated Newey is in the WRONG team.


There is no reason to cry or shout about this, this is a permanent vacation. Webber is silly enoughb to remain on the Red Bull, he should have opted to move to Ferrari and fight for the championship. As it stands Massa is fighting well, very well.

[Atreiu]

I dont think it has to do with Vettel possibly leaving. They simply didnt want to jepordize the 43 points for the WCC. But Vettel had a red mist day in the office at Webbers & Red Bulls PR machine expenses.

[JBonnierII]

They are not siding with Webber. They are perfectly happy with the outcome. Now they have a small price to pay in the shape of some lame public excuses to appease Webber. It's worth it.

[Sakae]

I dont think it has to do with Vettel possibly leaving. They simply didnt want to jepordize the 43 points for the WCC. But Vettel had a red mist day in the office at Webbers & Red Bulls PR machine expenses.

RBR has to take large responsibility for what happened today; from DM down to Marko and Horner alike. Several times in the past RB collectively let Webber off the hook for his various vagrancies, and tone was set, Vettel got his training, and now he acts the same way. I do not agree with what he has done, if he was told to stay put regardless of anything else, but I certainly do understand fertile ground on which this happened. Good for him.

[rasul]

I dont think it has to do with Vettel possibly leaving. They simply didnt want to jepordize the 43 points for the WCC. But Vettel had a red mist day in the office at Webbers & Red Bulls PR machine expenses.

I think it's way too early to think of WCC. Same goes for Merc. But unlike Merc, RBR used the team orders against their #1 driver( no matter what they say, it's silly to deny that Vet has the right to be #1 after winning 3 WDCs with them). Considering their less than warm attitude towards Vettel after the race and DM's recent comments that Vettel can leave anytime he wishes... I don't know. Maybe it's really nothing. But as they say, there's no smoke without fire. *shrugs*

[Menace]

It's simple enough: Vettel is not larger then the TEAM!

What he did is really not defensible, and I have rooted for him since Kimi left the sport for a while.

This was just pretty low from Seb, I hope he feels embarrassed about his actions. This with his comments about getting Mark moved over, made him look quite bad during the race. I always thought Vettel had honesty and integrity, and wasn't willing to get down to this level.

Maybe I was wrong.

[Menace]

I think it's way too early to think of WCC. Same goes for Merc. But unlike Merc, RBR used the team orders against their #1 driver( no matter what they say, it's silly to deny that Vet has the right to be #1 after winning 3 WDCs with them). Considering their less than warm attitude towards Vettel after the race and DM's recent comments that Vettel can leave anytime he wishes... I don't know. Maybe it's really nothing. But as they say, there's no smoke without fire. *shrugs*

Vettel embarrassed the team in public, and made Horner look like a fool.

I am surprised the actually told us how they feel in public, but this is a good start on making sure Vettel doesn't see himself as larger then the team. The WDC is still far away, he should not be favored over Webber at this stage of the championship. This is not Ferrari.

[ForzaGTR]

Vettel undermined Horner's authority and showed he can't be trusted to follow orders and be a team player. Of course they're all annoyed with him. It'll pass though.

Edited by Olly F1, 24 March 2013 - 18:34.