Webber´s defensive driving against Vettel
#1
Posted 24 March 2013 - 22:52
Do you think Webbers defending (the "wall squeeze") was still within the racing etiquette or already beyond that?
Tbh when the broadcasters played Horner´s "This is silly"-message, i initially thought SV had complained about Mark´s driving and Horner was just backing Vettel up.
For me it was right on the edge. Certainly not as bad as e.g. Hungary 2010 or Estoril 88, but not that far away either.
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#2
Posted 24 March 2013 - 22:56
#3
Posted 24 March 2013 - 22:57
#4
Posted 24 March 2013 - 22:59
The "Webber chop" is infamous. He has done it to numerous drivers. He is often too late in positioning his car - and then comes the squeeze/chop.He did the same at Massa at fuji i think
#5
Posted 24 March 2013 - 23:01
Very similar to the much-criticised move by Schumacher on Barrichello, but the combination of an extra few inches space and the general fear of criticising poor, mistreated Mark Webber means nothing was made of it.
#6
Posted 24 March 2013 - 23:08
Webber left enough room - LEGAL
#7
Posted 24 March 2013 - 23:09
#9
Posted 24 March 2013 - 23:12
It was Kimi. That was much worse IMO and really dangerous.He did the same at Massa at fuji i think
I don't think what he did at Malaysia was that bad at all and he hardly moved over on Vettel. He was initially so close to the wall anyway. It's nothing like Schumacher at Hungary or Senna at Estoril where they weaved across the entire straight.
#10
Posted 24 March 2013 - 23:13
If you don't have a life - you need to fill it in somehow.
#11
Posted 24 March 2013 - 23:14
I'm just stoked that Vettel got the win and that we got an exciting bit of racing that didn't end in tears.
#12
Posted 24 March 2013 - 23:14
oh that was quick.... anyway... in this matter I have to say Webber didn't initially squeeze Seb to a wall, Vettel was trying a tight overtake close to pitwall, but Webber stayed a bit longer than needed on the right side of the track
#13
Posted 24 March 2013 - 23:17
#14
Posted 24 March 2013 - 23:20
It was Kimi. That was much worse IMO and really dangerous.
No, it was Massa.
http://youtu.be/cf6xZ89sYhk?t=3m39s
Edited by ed24f1, 24 March 2013 - 23:23.
#15
Posted 24 March 2013 - 23:23
It's clear you haven't reviewed the video....I haven't reviewed the video, but in the race it didn't look like Webber did anything wrong. He had the inside line covered, with a bit of space on his right and expected Vettel to take the outside line. Seb suprised him by going further inside and almost touching the wall, inciting Horner's "this is silly" comment.
As sosidge said, Seb had already committed himself to the inside line when Webber decided to nudge him a bit more towards the wall.
I'm pretty sure Horner's comment was not about this specific moment.
#16
Posted 24 March 2013 - 23:27
Is there a video? There was one on one of the threads about this somewhere but I can't find it. Anyway even some who were pasting webber for it changed their mind when they saw the video and said it wasn't that bad and most of his move was done before vettel came alongside him.
Just found this onboard during post race discussion.
Looking at that, i think it was still within the limits.
#17
Posted 24 March 2013 - 23:27
It was Kimi. That was much worse IMO and really dangerous.
Webber did it to Massa, Fuji 2008.
And yes, that was worse than what he did to Vettel. But they were both over the top.
It's a straight, by giving someone 1 inch or 10 feet won't make a difference whether they pass or not, it just adds to the danger element by giving them less room.
#18
Posted 24 March 2013 - 23:58
#19
Posted 25 March 2013 - 00:58
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#20
Posted 25 March 2013 - 02:04
This wasn't Grosjean, Spa 2012 moving halfway across the track and pushing him onto the grass.
#21
Posted 25 March 2013 - 02:09
#22
Posted 25 March 2013 - 02:53
I don't about the move on the straight, but I felt that Webber was backing Vettel into Hamilton on purpose in the middle of the race.
Based on the team radio, it sounded like Mark was responding to laptimes that the team were asking him to do.
#23
Posted 25 March 2013 - 06:22
I'm pretty sure this is one of the things they will already have talked about.
Edited by H2H, 25 March 2013 - 06:24.
#24
Posted 25 March 2013 - 06:23
Webber moved once off the racing line - LEGAL
Webber left enough room - LEGAL
#25
Posted 25 March 2013 - 06:26
#26
Posted 25 March 2013 - 06:32
Based on the team radio, it sounded like Mark was responding to laptimes that the team were asking him to do.
He was lapping slower then they asked him to do for quite some time. At least in my replay it did. Wurz even pointed out that it sounded pretty harsh on Mark when they told him to drive a lot quicker with the Mercedes coming...
Edited by H2H, 25 March 2013 - 06:32.
#27
Posted 25 March 2013 - 06:42
#28
Posted 25 March 2013 - 06:51
#29
Posted 25 March 2013 - 09:19
#30
Posted 25 March 2013 - 09:23
#31
Posted 25 March 2013 - 09:36
Webber moved once off the racing line - LEGAL
Webber left enough room - LEGAL
Schumi also moved once in 2010 and also left enough room, and he got penalized.
But wait, he is german (as Vettel), but Mark is anglo-saxon. Typical double standard. Like in the TO-s.
TO in Ferrari: wrong
TO in RBR (only if Webbo is the favourable driver) - or in other english based team: smart and wise.
Edited by Tarzaan, 25 March 2013 - 09:39.
#32
Posted 25 March 2013 - 09:49
He was not hard enough in defending. He should have gone with "the either you give in or we both crash out" solution. And I think it would have been better for him to cause force a crash.
Yep, that sounds about right. Deliberately crash your teammate into the pitwall at 300+, the only correct thing to do.
#33
Posted 25 March 2013 - 12:08
Yep, that sounds about right. Deliberately crash your teammate into the pitwall at 300+, the only correct thing to do.
I found Webber's defending rather puzzling.
One moment he's squeezing Vettel towards the pit wall, then later he concedes a corner when he had every right to push Vettel wide.
#34
Posted 25 March 2013 - 12:18
I found Webber's defending rather puzzling.
One moment he's squeezing Vettel towards the pit wall, then later he concedes a corner when he had every right to push Vettel wide.
He squeezed Vettel towards the wall but still gave enough space - as per turkey 2010 - whereas IMO the next corner he may have thought it would end in tears so let Seb go and played the team game, a one two finish.
As for people comparing it to MS on Rubens in Hungary. Completely different in that MS kept moving towards Rubens when Rubens was running out of road. Webber left one car width and a bit and kept it that way but fans will see the initial move right and go up in arms. I don't know how Wurz can say it was over the limit when he said what Webber did was fine in Turkey. It was on the limit imo.
#35
Posted 25 March 2013 - 12:25
Lets face it, they don't like each other, they would not choose to be team mates, they are both there for the car.
#36
Posted 25 March 2013 - 12:36
He was lapping slower then they asked him to do for quite some time. At least in my replay it did. Wurz even pointed out that it sounded pretty harsh on Mark when they told him to drive a lot quicker with the Mercedes coming...
In what part of the race was this? I know they asked him to target high 1.41s when Seb was gaining mid race & Mark did so, reopening the gap to Seb again and showing that he wasn't slow at all but looking after his tyres. Or was Seb told to back off at that point?
#37
Posted 25 March 2013 - 12:50
Seb was told to back off the entire race, which makes this whole fiasco such a mess.In what part of the race was this? I know they asked him to target high 1.41s when Seb was gaining mid race & Mark did so, reopening the gap to Seb again and showing that he wasn't slow at all but looking after his tyres. Or was Seb told to back off at that point?
Bar 1 or 2 laps, Vettel was always comfortable within the 3 seconds (Red Bull told him to keep it at 3 seconds), and from lap 24 on, all the time within 2 seconds.
#38
Posted 25 March 2013 - 13:48
It´s always the same story, he covers poorly the inside line and reacts when it´s too late and there´s already someone there. He moves across too late. He´s entitled to cover the inside but he must do it earlier and better. If you leave 4 meters on the inside the first time you cover obviously someone´s going to take that route. And then you shouldn´t be pulling this squeeze, it´s pointless, as the other guy already has that line. Trying to scare someone to lift in a straight line is not acceptable.
#39
Posted 25 March 2013 - 13:51
Edited by pRy, 25 March 2013 - 13:55.
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#40
Posted 25 March 2013 - 13:55
What's worrying is the drivers have no way of knowing if someone is coming out of the pit lane at that moment and was Vettel ended up cutting across the pit exit.. what happens if theres a car there?
Indeed. Maybe they should introduce the rule, that the drivers aren´t allowed to cross the pitlane-line (basically the existing rule reversed ).
Edited by LiJu914, 25 March 2013 - 13:56.
#41
Posted 25 March 2013 - 13:57
It was another moronic defense by Webber, the counter must be reaching 3 digits now over his career
It´s always the same story, he covers poorly the inside line and reacts when it´s too late and there´s already someone there. He moves across too late. He´s entitled to cover the inside but he must do it earlier and better. If you leave 4 meters on the inside the first time you cover obviously someone´s going to take that route. And then you shouldn´t be pulling this squeeze, it´s pointless, as the other guy already has that line. Trying to scare someone to lift in a straight line is not acceptable.
Thankfully Mark has learned since Turkey 2010 to at least take the outside line into the braking zone when the opponent has the inside and try to re-pass from there.
#42
Posted 25 March 2013 - 14:01
Thankfully Mark has learned since Turkey 2010 to at least take the outside line into the braking zone when the opponent has the inside and try to re-pass from there.
That´s something. Indeed, this time he was smart enough to open up his line once the other guy got his nose in front and starting building up a line for himself.
#43
Posted 25 March 2013 - 14:02
It was Kimi. That was much worse IMO and really dangerous.
Are you thinking of this Webber/Kimi?