42 replies to this topic

[LiJu914]

This might have fallen down due to the whole "disobeying team orders"-debate, but...

Do you think Webbers defending (the "wall squeeze") was still within the racing etiquette or already beyond that?

Tbh when the broadcasters played Horner´s "This is silly"-message, i initially thought SV had complained about Mark´s driving and Horner was just backing Vettel up.

For me it was right on the edge. Certainly not as bad as e.g. Hungary 2010 or Estoril 88, but not that far away either.

[Zava]

I couldn't review it, but at first sight on the live feed it seemd like it was more of Vettel going for an already tight gap than Webber squeezing him.

[Massa]

He did the same at Massa at fuji i think

[Desdirodeabike]

He did the same at Massa at fuji i think

The "Webber chop" is infamous. He has done it to numerous drivers. He is often too late in positioning his car - and then comes the squeeze/chop.

[sosidge]

It was over the limit. The white line is the edge of the track, not the wall, and Webber moved after Vettel had made it clear he was going to that side.

Very similar to the much-criticised move by Schumacher on Barrichello, but the combination of an extra few inches space and the general fear of criticising poor, mistreated Mark Webber means nothing was made of it.

[Nobody]

Webber moved once off the racing line - LEGAL

Webber left enough room - LEGAL

[goldenboy]

Is there a video? There was one on one of the threads about this somewhere but I can't find it. Anyway even some who were pasting webber for it changed their mind when they saw the video and said it wasn't that bad and most of his move was done before vettel came alongside him.

[midgrid]

Here's a video.

Edited by midgrid, 24 March 2013 - 23:12.

[Paul Prost]

He did the same at Massa at fuji i think

It was Kimi. That was much worse IMO and really dangerous.

I don't think what he did at Malaysia was that bad at all and he hardly moved over on Vettel. He was initially so close to the wall anyway. It's nothing like Schumacher at Hungary or Senna at Estoril where they weaved across the entire straight.

[Supersleeper]

Nothing wrong with it - however it does afford posters with an axe to grind 3 weeks of histrionic temper tantrums.

If you don't have a life - you need to fill it in somehow.

[bourbon]

Meh. You have to give a little quarter in wheel to wheel. That was on the edge, but Mark has done much worse in the past.

I'm just stoked that Vettel got the win and that we got an exciting bit of racing that didn't end in tears.

[Sin]

This video contains content from Formula One Management, who has blocked it on copyright grounds.

oh that was quick.... anyway... in this matter I have to say Webber didn't initially squeeze Seb to a wall, Vettel was trying a tight overtake close to pitwall, but Webber stayed a bit longer than needed on the right side of the track

[fdspd]

I haven't reviewed the video, but in the race it didn't look like Webber did anything wrong. He had the inside line covered, with a bit of space on his right and expected Vettel to take the outside line. Seb suprised him by going further inside and almost touching the wall, inciting Horner's "this is silly" comment.

[ed24f1]

The irony is whilst Webber was quite aggressive on the straight, he really should have then closed Vettel off at Turn 4 and hung him out to dry.

It was Kimi. That was much worse IMO and really dangerous.

No, it was Massa.

http://youtu.be/cf6xZ89sYhk?t=3m39s

Edited by ed24f1, 24 March 2013 - 23:23.

[scheivlak]

I haven't reviewed the video, but in the race it didn't look like Webber did anything wrong. He had the inside line covered, with a bit of space on his right and expected Vettel to take the outside line. Seb suprised him by going further inside and almost touching the wall, inciting Horner's "this is silly" comment.

It's clear you haven't reviewed the video....
As sosidge said, Seb had already committed himself to the inside line when Webber decided to nudge him a bit more towards the wall.

I'm pretty sure Horner's comment was not about this specific moment.

[LiJu914]

Is there a video? There was one on one of the threads about this somewhere but I can't find it. Anyway even some who were pasting webber for it changed their mind when they saw the video and said it wasn't that bad and most of his move was done before vettel came alongside him.

Just found this onboard during post race discussion.
Looking at that, i think it was still within the limits.

[PLAYLIFE]

It was Kimi. That was much worse IMO and really dangerous.

Webber did it to Massa, Fuji 2008.

And yes, that was worse than what he did to Vettel. But they were both over the top.

It's a straight, by giving someone 1 inch or 10 feet won't make a difference whether they pass or not, it just adds to the danger element by giving them less room.

[Cenotaph]

The only issue is that he moved a bit too late, not unlike Vettel last season at Austin with Lewis, so he can't really complain there. ofc, there was no wall at Austin, but WEB obviously left a gap big enough and the racing was great to watch because it was aggressive and that's what we're for, right?

[LoudHoward]

I thought it was okay, I'm looking forward to having some hi-res pics of it come out, surely a lot of photographers are at T1 looking down the front straight?

[Jimisgod]

It was a risky gap to go for, Seb was over the white line before Webber tried to scare him.

This wasn't Grosjean, Spa 2012 moving halfway across the track and pushing him onto the grass.

[boldhakka]

I don't about the move on the straight, but I felt that Webber was backing Vettel into Hamilton on purpose in the middle of the race.

[LoudHoward]

I don't about the move on the straight, but I felt that Webber was backing Vettel into Hamilton on purpose in the middle of the race.

Based on the team radio, it sounded like Mark was responding to laptimes that the team were asking him to do.

[H2H]

Wurz said that this was over the limit as Webber changed direction and pushed Vettel against the wall. Still he left some space. Luckily no penalty was given and RBR & Webber conserved a lot of points.

I'm pretty sure this is one of the things they will already have talked about.

Edited by H2H, 25 March 2013 - 06:24.

[DILLIGAF]

Webber moved once off the racing line - LEGAL

Webber left enough room - LEGAL

[chumma]

I want to know how Vettel within the space of half a second gained about 30 meters when he got 'real close' ive never seen a car close that fast it was almost like webber lifted. I think Marks defensive driving was fine, he should have put Seb off track at turn 4 but left him a lot of room, almost like he just let him take the corner thinking RBR may rectify it later

[H2H]

Based on the team radio, it sounded like Mark was responding to laptimes that the team were asking him to do.

He was lapping slower then they asked him to do for quite some time. At least in my replay it did. Wurz even pointed out that it sounded pretty harsh on Mark when they told him to drive a lot quicker with the Mercedes coming...

Edited by H2H, 25 March 2013 - 06:32.

[Afterburner]

I had no problems with Webber's on-track conduct today--didn't have a problem with Schumi/Barrichello at Hungary 2010 either. I think both instances are examples of on-the-limit racing.

[DarthWillie]

Christian Albers on dutch tv didn't think it was a problem

[Kelateboy]

That was some "on the limit" racing. Kudos to both drivers for keeping it clean, albeit slightly on the edge.

[seahawk]

He was not hard enough in defending. He should have gone with "the either you give in or we both crash out" solution. And I think it would have been better for him to cause force a crash.

[Tarzaan]

Webber moved once off the racing line - LEGAL

Webber left enough room - LEGAL

Schumi also moved once in 2010 and also left enough room, and he got penalized.

But wait, he is german (as Vettel), but Mark is anglo-saxon. Typical double standard. Like in the TO-s.
TO in Ferrari: wrong
TO in RBR (only if Webbo is the favourable driver) - or in other english based team: smart and wise.

Edited by Tarzaan, 25 March 2013 - 09:39.

[choyothe]

He was not hard enough in defending. He should have gone with "the either you give in or we both crash out" solution. And I think it would have been better for him to cause force a crash.

Yep, that sounds about right. Deliberately crash your teammate into the pitwall at 300+, the only correct thing to do.

[BillBald]

Yep, that sounds about right. Deliberately crash your teammate into the pitwall at 300+, the only correct thing to do.

I found Webber's defending rather puzzling.

One moment he's squeezing Vettel towards the pit wall, then later he concedes a corner when he had every right to push Vettel wide.

[v@sh]

I found Webber's defending rather puzzling.

One moment he's squeezing Vettel towards the pit wall, then later he concedes a corner when he had every right to push Vettel wide.

He squeezed Vettel towards the wall but still gave enough space - as per turkey 2010 - whereas IMO the next corner he may have thought it would end in tears so let Seb go and played the team game, a one two finish.

As for people comparing it to MS on Rubens in Hungary. Completely different in that MS kept moving towards Rubens when Rubens was running out of road. Webber left one car width and a bit and kept it that way but fans will see the initial move right and go up in arms. I don't know how Wurz can say it was over the limit when he said what Webber did was fine in Turkey. It was on the limit imo.

[PurpleHam]

Vettel was totally the bully, he showed total disregard for his team mate, Vettel's "He's too slow, get him out of the way..." just showed his character, he actually thought that was Webber's pace when infact Webber was under orders to turn it down and bring it home, and I assume Vettel was under the same orders aswell.

Lets face it, they don't like each other, they would not choose to be team mates, they are both there for the car.

[DILLIGAF]

He was lapping slower then they asked him to do for quite some time. At least in my replay it did. Wurz even pointed out that it sounded pretty harsh on Mark when they told him to drive a lot quicker with the Mercedes coming...

In what part of the race was this? I know they asked him to target high 1.41s when Seb was gaining mid race & Mark did so, reopening the gap to Seb again and showing that he wasn't slow at all but looking after his tyres. Or was Seb told to back off at that point?

[mnmracer]

In what part of the race was this? I know they asked him to target high 1.41s when Seb was gaining mid race & Mark did so, reopening the gap to Seb again and showing that he wasn't slow at all but looking after his tyres. Or was Seb told to back off at that point?

Seb was told to back off the entire race, which makes this whole fiasco such a mess.
Bar 1 or 2 laps, Vettel was always comfortable within the 3 seconds (Red Bull told him to keep it at 3 seconds), and from lap 24 on, all the time within 2 seconds.

[Skinnyguy]

It was another moronic defense by Webber, the counter must be reaching 3 digits now over his career

It´s always the same story, he covers poorly the inside line and reacts when it´s too late and there´s already someone there. He moves across too late. He´s entitled to cover the inside but he must do it earlier and better. If you leave 4 meters on the inside the first time you cover obviously someone´s going to take that route. And then you shouldn´t be pulling this squeeze, it´s pointless, as the other guy already has that line. Trying to scare someone to lift in a straight line is not acceptable.

[pRy]

What's worrying is the drivers have no way of knowing if someone is coming out of the pit lane at that moment and as Vettel ended up cutting across the pit exit.. what happens if theres a car there?

Edited by pRy, 25 March 2013 - 13:55.

[LiJu914]

What's worrying is the drivers have no way of knowing if someone is coming out of the pit lane at that moment and was Vettel ended up cutting across the pit exit.. what happens if theres a car there?

Indeed. Maybe they should introduce the rule, that the drivers aren´t allowed to cross the pitlane-line (basically the existing rule reversed ).

Edited by LiJu914, 25 March 2013 - 13:56.

[choyothe]

It was another moronic defense by Webber, the counter must be reaching 3 digits now over his career

It´s always the same story, he covers poorly the inside line and reacts when it´s too late and there´s already someone there. He moves across too late. He´s entitled to cover the inside but he must do it earlier and better. If you leave 4 meters on the inside the first time you cover obviously someone´s going to take that route. And then you shouldn´t be pulling this squeeze, it´s pointless, as the other guy already has that line. Trying to scare someone to lift in a straight line is not acceptable.

Thankfully Mark has learned since Turkey 2010 to at least take the outside line into the braking zone when the opponent has the inside and try to re-pass from there.

[Skinnyguy]

Thankfully Mark has learned since Turkey 2010 to at least take the outside line into the braking zone when the opponent has the inside and try to re-pass from there.

That´s something. Indeed, this time he was smart enough to open up his line once the other guy got his nose in front and starting building up a line for himself.

[RetroF1]

It was Kimi. That was much worse IMO and really dangerous.

Are you thinking of this Webber/Kimi?