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French GP circuit 1907 - 1912


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#1 Kpy

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Posted 28 March 2001 - 14:12

Can any one help me with info concerning the circuit used for the French GP 1907-12?
I know it ran roughly Dieppe - Envermeu - Londinieres - Sept-Meules - Eu - Criel-sur -Mer - Dieppe, but I'd love some really detailed info on the route. For instance where was the Start/Finish line, what route from there to Envermeu, did the race pass through each village? etc. ANY info is welcome. I live five miles at most from the circuit's southernmost point and would love to retrace it exactly.

Thank you

Kpy :D :D

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#2 Darren Galpin

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Posted 28 March 2001 - 14:20

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#3 Kpy

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Posted 28 March 2001 - 14:49

:) :)

Very many thanks Darren, I think Saucly-le Bas must be today's Sauchay-le-Bas, which puts the Start/Finish near Neuville-lés -Dieppe by the current industrial estate. Boisselet makes it current D 90 all the way to Londiniéres. I would think it roughly D 1314 to Eu, and then D 925 back to Start/Finish,but incuding a blast through Criel-sur-Mer.

More info please if anyone has it;:up: :up:

Thanks, Kpy

#4 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 28 March 2001 - 16:55

The Dieppe circuit in use from 1907 to 1912, had the 1907 starting point just east of the road junction of N.25 and N.320, on the eastern outskirts of Dieppe. From there it followed the river Eaulne in south-eastern direction through Envermeu. The grandstand with parking area for 1000 cars and the depots were situated on the outside of the circuirt, not far (1-2 km?) from the hairpin corner, on N.25. The cars had a short run towards Dieppe and then turned at the hairpin ("fourche") east to Envermeu.

For 1908 and 1912 the site of the grandstand and main depot was changed to the Dieppe-Envermeu road, one kilometer from the Hairpin on N.320.

#5 Kpy

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Posted 28 March 2001 - 17:09

Thanks Hans. I guess that sorts out the start as being somewhere near the current junction of D 925 andD 920. I presume "depots" would have been pits and paddock??
Parking for 1000 cars in 1907 - wow - didn't know there were 10,000 in france by then.
Thanks again. That takes care of the 2 or three kms round the start and pits. Who can help with the remaining 75 kms or so??


#6 Roger Clark

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Posted 28 March 2001 - 18:30

You need Grand Prix Racing 1906-1914 by TASO Mathieson, from which this map is taken. It's full of contemporary scenes, may of which are probably recognisable today. I've long intended to trace that track myself. If you do, please let us know what you find. this is the 1908 version.

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#7 jarama

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Posted 28 March 2001 - 20:42

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
The grandstand with parking area for 1000 cars


We're talking of 1907... amazing, isn't it?

#8 Kpy

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Posted 28 March 2001 - 22:49

:D :D :D

Thanks so much Roger. Yes I do need TASOM's book; Any guidance on where to find a copy?

:up: The circuit as mapped on your post follows precicely the roads you would follow today, with the exception of a little by-pass to the south of Criel-sur-Mer.

I traced it from a little diagram drawn by a friend on Christmas Day 1999, round about lunchtime, thinking that most of the locals would be eating en famille . In fact there were more people around off to see Grannie than I'd bargained for, and I wrong slotted for at least a minute at Eu. A Peugeot 405 diesel turbo is hardly the best machine for tackling a circuit, even one as fast and open as this, and you cant just barrel through a 30 mph(ish) limit flat - the top corner though the edge of Eu is seriously built up as is Envermeu (and my bank manager lives there). Any way can't remember how long it took, holding well over 100 mph on long stretches of straight, but it was much longer than the sub 37 mins I think was the record in 1907.

I live a mile and a half from Clais (bottom right corner of your map. Would be delighted to arrange a "tracing" weekend - to include Rouen-les-Essarts (still fully driveable in early 50s format) under 40miles away and maybe the other Dieppe GP circuit(s). Anyone game??

Kpy

#9 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 28 March 2001 - 23:39

K, you should find the book in the first three stores of this list.

http://www.abebooks.com/
http://www.bibliofind.com/
http://www.collector...ooksinStore.htm
http://www.alibris.com/
http://collectors-carbooks.co.uk?
http://www.simonlewis.com/
http://www.tavaresmotorsport.com/
http://www.autoboek.com/
http://www.antiqbook.com/
http://www.amazon.co...ats-query-page/
http://www.ebay.com/
http://www.atlasf1.c...tore/index.html
http://www.motorbooks.com/
http://wilkinsonsauto.com/
e-mail: autobooks@autobooks.co.uk Kenneth Ball at Autobooks Limited in England.
http://www.lesezeich...nd/motspor1.htm
http://www.kb.nl/gabriel/ Gateway to Europe’s National Libraries

#10 Roger Clark

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Posted 28 March 2001 - 23:47

Originally posted by Kpy
:D :D :D

Thanks so much Roger. Yes I do need TASOM's book; Any guidance on where to find a copy?

:up: The circuit as mapped on your post follows precicely the roads you would follow today, with the exception of a little by-pass to the south of Criel-sur-Mer.

I traced it from a little diagram drawn by a friend on Christmas Day 1999, round about lunchtime, thinking that most of the locals would be eating en famille . In fact there were more people around off to see Grannie than I'd bargained for, and I wrong slotted for at least a minute at Eu. A Peugeot 405 diesel turbo is hardly the best machine for tackling a circuit, even one as fast and open as this, and you cant just barrel through a 30 mph(ish) limit flat - the top corner though the edge of Eu is seriously built up as is Envermeu (and my bank manager lives there). Any way can't remember how long it took, holding well over 100 mph on long stretches of straight, but it was much longer than the sub 37 mins I think was the record in 1907.

I live a mile and a half from Clais (bottom right corner of your map. Would be delighted to arrange a "tracing" weekend - to include Rouen-les-Essarts (still fully driveable in early 50s format) under 40miles away and maybe the other Dieppe GP circuit(s). Anyone game??

Kpy


I would definitely be on for such a weekend. Could we include Le Mans (the 1906 Grand Prix circuit) and perhaps Amiens?

I don't think Chaters (http://www.chaters.c...ftoken=96187996) was on Hans' list. They have a copy

#11 Kpy

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Posted 29 March 2001 - 00:23

Originally posted by Roger Clark


I would definitely be on for such a weekend. Could we include Le Mans (the 1906 Grand Prix circuit) and perhaps Amiens?

:D :D :D :D :D :D

:up: :up:

How long have you got? Bearing in mind that Le Mans is three and a half hours to four hours to the south of here! I should know as I still go to the 24 hrs plus the May practice w/e and last year the 12 hours historic sportscar race on the dreadful Bugatti circuit in July. I'm game though for weekends like that. Can do all the organising including discount travel. Decent places to stay, eat etc no problem. The odd jar of wine?? Can do.
Amiens a mere 45 miles away - please supply details of circuit.
Hell this will be FUN!!
Must be more than one weekend involved here.

Thanks for the tip on the book which I MUST have!
:D :D :D

Kpy

#12 Kpy

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Posted 29 March 2001 - 00:43

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
K, you should find the book in the first three stores of this list.


:D :D :D :up: :up: :up:

Hans - thank you so much. I have found and ordered a copy.

:) :) :)

#13 Ray Bell

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Posted 29 March 2001 - 01:11

I thought the original Rouen was no longer driveable? Am I misled?

You need to get out early on Christmas day, then you should do it okay, but really, a 405D did over 160?

My friend has a 405 with the 4WD, top engine option, all that, it's for sale, it would do it easy...

#14 Kpy

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Posted 29 March 2001 - 02:51

Ray

Have a look at www.silhouet.com/motorsport/tracks/rouen.html

Then click on the road map link.

Original - 1950 to maybe '53 circuit northern straight is the D 132a, marked "l'Etoile".
The circuit can be driven in that configuration by you or me tomorrow.
The curly bit between l'Etoile and the motorway is the '70s top straight. We can walk that bit but it's blocked off from Motor traffic as it's now a joggers', cyclists' and dog-walkers' paradise. Tarmac and curbs are still there.
The real - mid 50s to late 60s - top straight was the N 138, wrecked when they built the motorway. You can drive most of it, but it comes to a dead end before it would have re-joined the old circuit. Curiously the N 138 becomes the Mulsanne Straight at another circuit miles to the south.
The buggers have laid tarmac over the Nouveau Monde cobbles and knocked down the (decaying) pits and roofless stand,but the steps up into the spectator banks are still there, and believe me the curves are VERY daunting down from the old pits and up the hill. A must for any 50s or 60s enthousiast.

As for the 405, well unfortunately the french police timed it at over 110 mph Easter 1999, just north of Bordeaux. My wife was driving, I'd warned her as to where the radar would be, and I paid the 600 ff fine.

OK I'll get up really early for my Christmas lap this year. Got to respect those 1907 guys though.

Kpy


#15 Ray Bell

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Posted 29 March 2001 - 10:56

Originally posted by Kpy
Parking for 1000 cars in 1907 - wow - didn't know there were 10,000 in france by then.


Just for comparison, recently, while I was waiting to see Ken McKinney, the sole survivor of the 1928 Australian Grand Prix, his daughter showed me a book that listed all the cars registered in New South Wales in 1909. There were about 4700, and that was just one of the six states of Australia. By 1913 there were 14,000.

#16 fines

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Posted 29 March 2001 - 18:55

A grand-grand-uncle of mine happened to own the second ever motor car in the Eifel in about 1900 or so. That was before the Nürburgring, of course...

#17 Roger Clark

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Posted 29 March 2001 - 20:47

Originally posted by Kpy

:D :D :D :D :D :D

:up: :up:

How long have you got? Bearing in mind that Le Mans is three and a half hours to four hours to the south of here! I should know as I still go to the 24 hrs plus the May practice w/e and last year the 12 hours historic sportscar race on the dreadful Bugatti circuit in July. I'm game though for weekends like that. Can do all the organising including discount travel. Decent places to stay, eat etc no problem. The odd jar of wine?? Can do.
Amiens a mere 45 miles away - please supply details of circuit.
Hell this will be FUN!!
Must be more than one weekend involved here.

Thanks for the tip on the book which I MUST have!
:D :D :D

Kpy


My knowledge of French geography is worse than I tthought. I used to travel from Paris to Brittany and passed Le Mans on the way, so I somehow thought it was further north!

Amiens, scene of the 1913 Grand Prix is fully described in the Mathieson book.

I do hope you're serious about this trip, I'm getting quite excited at the thought. Do you want to suggest a weekend...soon? and is anyone else interested? Barry Boor?

#18 Kpy

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Posted 29 March 2001 - 21:03


Roger
Please read the PM I sent This morning.

I'm deadly serious - remember the last line in Casablanca, the film?
"This could be the beginning of a beautiful friendship" ??

Logging off now for self-inflicted steak and baked potatoes (not all french cuisine is haute) for a few minutes and than back for further discussion.

Best wishes

Kpy

#19 Kpy

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Posted 29 March 2001 - 21:35

Roger

I'm here, full of steak. Do you want to talk on or off the forum??

Kpy;)

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#20 Roger Clark

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Posted 29 March 2001 - 22:10

Originally posted by Kpy


I'm deadly serious - remember the last line in Casablanca, the film?
"This could be the beginning of a beautiful friendship" ??


Perhaps we should round up the usual suspects. It's probably better to talk off the forum, or we'll end up boring everybody else. I've already sent you an e-mail. If anybody else is interested in this expedition, please feel free to e-mail me.

Roger

#21 Kpy

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Posted 29 March 2001 - 22:15



Totally agreed this project goes off-forum as of now. Looking for e-mail

Best wishes

Kpy

#22 Ray Bell

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Posted 29 March 2001 - 22:52

Sounds great... wish I could be there... at least our Lobethal 'Walk' happened for three of us, but we finished up driving!

No question of a walk here, however.... pictures please, gentlemen!

#23 Kpy

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Posted 29 March 2001 - 23:46

OK Ray
Promise pictures about end May
Sure you can't come?

#24 Ray Bell

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Posted 30 March 2001 - 00:15

Believe me, if I could I would have said so, and included Clermont Ferrand and Lyons and Rheims in the itinerary.... already saw the Bugatti circuit, walked over bits of it in the pits at the 81 24hr race...

I can get to Lobethal again, however, if you choose to come out here for a trip... hope you looked at the picturesque lap?

I don't really expect you to photograph every bit like that though...