43 replies to this topic

[mnmracer]

Formula 1 fans and pundits alike have come out and had their say about the situation with Vettel and Webber in Malaysia.

It generally boils down to people either praising him for his killer instinct (Ecclestone, former Ferrari team manager Mazzola), while others have criticized him for not listening to his team boss (Briatore, Button).
So a very simple and straightforward poll.
As Vettel, would you want to be remembered as the driver with the killer instinct, or the team player?
As a team owner, would you want to hire a driver with killer instinct, or a team player? (assuming you were not expecting him to be a #2 driver)

[Sakae]

Where is an option: both ?

[KnucklesAgain]

False dichotomy. You can be a team player without being a pushover, you can be a racer without being an a$$hole

[benzine]

killer instinct for the win relentless , tireless , selfish , dominant . all great champions are (schumi , senna , alonso )

[undersquare]

False dichotomy. You can be a team player without being a pushover, you can be a racer without being an a$$hole

+1

Lol, what a biased poll.

There can be drivers who drive hard but fair, like Hakkinen, Gilles, Kimi, Hamilton, Alonso...

The killer instinct, but within the sport.

Or there can be a Schumacher who sadly tainted his colossal achievements with unsporting behaviour.

Vettel is on the cusp right now IMO. The 'get him out of the way' person is perilously close to the surface, and it's not attractive.

[Molo19]

Kinda loaded poll, no? Particularly love the out-of-contex Senna reference.

[zack1994]

False dichotomy. You can be a team player without being a pushover, you can be a racer without being an a$$hole

+1 Agreed

[JeanClaude]

That's simple, as Vettel one wants to be remembered as the ruthless racer.
His hero was/is Michael Schumacher.
He's the natural successor of Senna, Schumacher, Alonso
Uber successful, ruthless, win at all cost, very private person, takes no prisoners

As a team boss you want both.
The hard racer who obeys at all times
Like Mazzola explained it's the nature of the beast, so you probably can't have that obedient team player at all times.

JC

[superuser]

False dichotomy. You can be a team player without being a pushover, you can be a racer without being an a$$hole

Nope. Rosberg will be the next DC, Massa, Rubens, etc. There's nothing wrong with that (these are very fast and respectable drivers) but you have to conscious that there is really not much middle ground.

[Massafan]

Isn't it a serious question, is it?

[Massafan]

False dichotomy. You can be a team player without being a pushover, you can be a racer without being an a$$hole

You're right!

[Sakae]

+1

Lol, what a biased poll.

There can be drivers who drive hard but fair, like Hakkinen, Gilles, Kimi, Hamilton, Alonso...

The killer instinct, but within the sport.

Or there can be a Schumacher who sadly tainted his colossal achievements with unsporting behaviour.

Vettel is on the cusp right now IMO. The 'get him out of the way' person is perilously close to the surface, and it's not attractive.

Looks like forumers aren't immune, are they? Hard and fair - Alonso and Hamilton in the same sentence? Right. They are both saints, no doubt about it.

[HoldenRT]

The fans want to see a racer.

The team want to see a team player. It's not so much about whether or not they are number 1 or 2.. it's just about following instruction. It could be as simple as turning engine down instead of going for fastest laps.

Even Alonso in the Renault days followed instruction and would let Fisi past him.

The fans will always want to see racing.. and ALL of the teams.. have a conflict of interest. It would be in the fans best interest if it were like MotoGP and all team instructions were blocked (no radio).

[RockBrocaine]

More accurately, I'd say he's a racer that has been overpamper because he is good. There's no written rule of being a selfish bastard to be a good racer.

[joora]

False dichotomy. You can be a team player without being a pushover, you can be a racer without being an a$$hole

This.

[mnmracer]

It would be obvious that he (and everyone) would want both, isn't it?
There's little point in opening a poll where you know the answer.

You have to choose now.
Which do you want?

[Sakae]

I cannot vote, because one choice would contradict the other, and I want both.

[kento11]

Sure you race to win but when a team builds you a great car and pays you mega millions to drive it, you have an obligation to the team. Without a team he could well be still winning go kart races. It's all about money and remembering what the team has done for you, it's not your team Seb.

[Sakae]

Sure you race to win but when a team builds you a great car and pays you mega millions to drive it, you have an obligation to the team. Without a team he could well be still winning go kart races. It's all about money and remembering what the team has done for you, it's not your team Seb.

An F1 driver represents a certain value for the team, and he, like every element in this equation needs to be treated certain way. If driver is not important, than they could hire a taxi driver instead, and for much less money too. Mistreated, or mismanaged a racing driver is just as flawed and dysfunctional system as a wheel badly attached to the car. Vettel is not work in progress, but he is a man with certain character profile (as all of us have some), and obviously his handlers weren't paying much attention to it. I think he knows that RBR is not his team, but certain expectations of his weren't either met, or his mind wasn't conditioned to what has transpired. How many times in all those years team has told him to give up on the race, when he could take Webber on?

(Team + equipment + driver) = results.

[03011969]

Spot the comically childish poll.

[Pingu Pi]

Mnmracer must be part of the press, because only one of them could use that Senna quote so far out of context.

[PassWind]

It would be obvious that he (and everyone) would want both, isn't it?
There's little point in opening a poll where you know the answer.

You have to choose now.
Which do you want?

Correct there was little point to opening this Poll, which I believe is a childish attempt to asert that killer instinct is good, team play is bad and that what Vettel did was related to either of them.

We don't have to choose, so as most have pointed the poll is fail.

[fabr68]

I dont see the option for crippled engine overtaker.

[Xeriks]

What a ridiculous poll!

[SpaMaster]

I dont see the option for crippled engine overtaker.

At least, he does not play politics and undermine his teammate behind the scenes.

Edited by SpaMaster, 28 March 2013 - 17:42.

[Asterion]

I dont see the option for crippled engine overtaker.

Funny one-sided poll.

[trogggy]

At least, he does not play politics and undermine his teammate behind the scenes.

How would you know?

Anyway he has Marko for that.

[Owen]

Poll seems fine but can I add a couple of other options?

If you were Vettel, how do you want to be remembered?
C) as someone who was admired for beating the competition fair and square, a sporting icon with genuine ability and integrity

If you were a team boss, who would you want to employ?
C) someone who was not happy to risk running out of fuel, colliding with their team mate and destroying team stability and sporting credibility

Think I'd go for these options myself.

[Kingshark]

False dichotomy. You can be a team player without being a pushover, you can be a racer without being an a$$hole

+1

Lol, what a biased poll.

Isn't it a serious question, is it?

My thoughts exactly.

[AnR]

[quote name='undersquare' date='Mar 28 2013, 16:40' post='6206531

There can be drivers who drive hard but fair, like Hakkinen, Gilles, Kimi, Hamilton, Alonso...
[/quote]

That must have been the statement off the year? Bringing in Hamilton and Alonso as hard and fair?

Edited by AnR, 28 March 2013 - 18:43.

[SennaBoys]

Kinda loaded poll, no? Particularly love the out-of-contex Senna reference.

+1 Fully agreed, we have a new leader for most loaded poll of the year award!!

[prty]

False dichotomy. You can be a team player without being a pushover, you can be a racer without being an a$$hole

+1

+1 Agreed

You're right!

This.

My thoughts exactly.

Sums it up

[undersquare]

[quote name='AnR' post='6206725' date='Mar 28 2013, 18:42'][quote name='undersquare' date='Mar 28 2013, 16:40' post='6206531

There can be drivers who drive hard but fair, like Hakkinen, Gilles, Kimi, Hamilton, Alonso...


That must have been the statement off the year? Bringing in Hamilton and Alonso as hard and fair?[/quote]

Of course they are fair. They are quite extreme, but in a good way. Nando gave Petrov the finger after Abu Dhabi 2010 for example, but he didn't take him off. Not that they've never ever gone over the line but in general they are sporting drivers and a perfect example for Sebi. A vastly better example than Schumi who would have been so much greater with 6 titles and no cheats. Sport means achieving things within boundaries. If you go beyond the boundaries then 'winning' doesn't mean anything.

[eronrules]

a world class driver will use each occation to his own benefit. so you can't say one is this or that.

1. if a driver is always racy, he'll make mistakes and crash

2. if a driver is too 'team player' friendly, he'll be a natural no.2.

it's only those drivers that have the racers edge and knows when to play the 'team game' wins multiple wdcs.

i think seb has both qualities.

[fdspd]

Sebastian the villian.

It's part of the script so that a few years down the line he'll be loved by the fans like Alonso and Hamilton are now.

/Troll

I agree with the general consensus that you can be a killer as well as a team player at the same time.

[bourbon]

You have a bit of both - right.

[DILLIGAF]

False dichotomy. You can be a team player without being a pushover, you can be a racer without being an a$$hole

+1

[Massafan]

You have a bit of both - right.

Obviously, 'cause the all topic (and the poll as well) is a big dichotomy, as someone's already mentioned that...

[JeanClaude]

Sport means achieving things within boundaries. If you go beyond the boundaries then 'winning' doesn't mean anything.

Do boundaries include taking 3rd place by lying to the stewards in order to cheat your fellow driver Trulli?
Do boundaries include ignoring team orders or blocking your opponent in qualy Hungary 2007?

I'm afraid both Hammy and Alonso can't hold a candle to Seb morally or at best are also ultra competitive beasts.
But your selective indignation is amusing though

JC

[undersquare]

Do boundaries include taking 3rd place by lying to the stewards in order to cheat your fellow driver Trulli?
Do boundaries include ignoring team orders or blocking your opponent in qualy Hungary 2007?

I'm afraid both Hammy and Alonso can't hold a candle to Seb morally or at best are also ultra competitive beasts.
But your selective indignation is amusing though

JC

What is it you think I'm biased about?

[Absulute]

It's threads like these that make me wish there was a race this weekend.

[PretentiousBread]

Loaded questions FTW.

[reggie]

It's threads like these that make me wish there was a race this weekend.

The levels some fans stoop to is quite embarrassing isn't it

[Brother Fox]

I thoroughly enjoy the unbiased nature of this poll. Threads like this make Racing Comments a pleasure to read.