89 replies to this topic

[Ravenak]

April Fools anyone?

Some people are eager.

[wepmob2000]

If he is Bernie's spy and putting his team in a better position, then he's simply doing his job better than the other team bosses. The best team principals can run excellent teams and play the political game..... and this is coming from a non-RB fan.... If Horner can play the game better than the others then good luck to him

[MikeV1987]

I could not care less what Horner does, every team principal on the grid has been criticized for one thing or another over the years. the politics and mind games of F1 are great entertainment, seems everyone wants to knock down the winner(s)!

[Sausage]

Tbh Horner wouldn't make the most illogical man to take over from Bernie.

[Watkins74]

People actually pay real money to read that kind of article?

[ThomFi]

Thanks

Ooppss! Ignore what I said then...

Wrong person, wrong era.

You might have confused this with the story about Newey not working for Ferrari, because his wife thinks that Italy is some kind of a third world country.

[sprice]

You might have confused this with the story about Newey not working for Ferrari, because his wife thinks that Italy is some kind of a third world country.

Seems Newey and his wife are no longer together so maybe this no longer applies.

[chrisj]

Well, Bernie needed somebody after Briatore got kicked out. If Horner got a deal with Bernie nearly as good as Ferrari's AND won double world championships the last 3 years, he's a lot better than most people give him credit for.

[Nonesuch]

This isn't new news. Red Bull were excluded from a teams meeting at one of the races last season for exactly the reason that they felt things dicussed behind closed doors were making their way to Ecclestone somehow.

Wasn't it a case of FOTA having a meeting and inviting the non-member Ferrari (and Sauber?) but not inviting the other non-member Red Bull?

Anyway, Ecclestone and his cronies probably have far more lines of information than the one team principal to get the information they want/need.

Edited by Nonesuch, 29 March 2013 - 21:19.

[R Soul]

I hope Ecclestone has every team principal as his "only" spy.

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

Horner and Newey have more or less free reign at Red Bull Racing.

Why would they go to Ferrari and be Luca's subordinates? For the glamour and prestige?

[BillBald]

They have been in the firing line eversince they are building cars that are beating the established teams. Have you forgotten about the cheating accusations, how many times the teams had the FIA turn their cars inside out, convinced of secret ride height systems and what not? According to Horner, it comes with the territory. They are getting used to it. As for the brand: the RBR statistics nearly match long time racing team McLaren,and they have a driver in Vettel that beats all standing records when hes only 25. I think thats positive exposure. But who knows Mateschitz thinks at the end of this year that hes had enough of this amicable group of team managers, and let them rot in their own waste. If hes gone, thats 9 teams remaining in F1, with a few others in a bad financial situations. Good luck with the image of F1.

Have you forgotten that Red Bull had an illegal system for changing the ride height, and that they were not punished?

[yoyogetfunky]

Have you forgotten that Red Bull had an illegal system for changing the ride height, and that they were not punished?

You must be joking, right?

[George Costanza]

I believe that was John Barnard.

That's correct.

He wanted to stay in England for the 1990's, until Michael Schumacher came to Ferrari, then Ross and Rory came in.

[Black Widow]

You might have confused this with the story about Newey not working for Ferrari, because his wife thinks that Italy is some kind of a third world country.

Spot on.

Thanks ThomFi, it was bugging me where the confusion came from, but you are right, that was it.

[Kelateboy]

Considering Red Bull Racing is an outfit of which the purpose is specifically to promote their brand, I'm not sure all the negative press will be going over with as many smiley faces at Milton Keynes, however true or fabricated it may be.

Not in my neck of the wood - Red Bull is still as popular as ever, or even more so despite the controversy in Malaysia. This board is mostly patronized by Brits and Aussies and the opinions here do not represent or reflect the opinions in other parts of the world.

Having said that I would stay that Red Bull tastes like horse-piss mixed with household detergent. I can't understand why anybody would drink this ****....

[HP]

Well usually I like Dieter Renckens ramblings, as they usually have some good points to think about. But this one made me wonder.

No direct quotes, so each and every 'other' team boss can deny he said anything. Convenient! Then writing about the team bosses doing some little kids play?!? If that play is true, then shame on them. I mean really, these are people responsible for teams burning quite a big sum of money over a year. And they have nothing better to do than playing silly mind-games, in front of the media and VIP's? Andm many of those VIP's being sponsors. Common. And if that story is made up, well I wonder if I should continue with my subscription anyway.

Should team bosses really play mind games with one of their own, then I can almost guarantee that they play games with the media as well. And finally should anything like that come near the truth, then we should ask Bernie Ecclestone to close the show, before it becomes a laughing stock all over this planet earth in an episode of "Grownup boys and their silly ploys'n'toys".

[Jamiednm]

Sore losers....

I agree.

While he has come in for some flack (and rightly so) over the lack of control over Vettel in Malaysia, he is obviously an incredibly effective TP and also comes across as a very intelligent and articulate fella.

[KiloWatt]

Off topic musing (rather than making another thread):

Where are the days when Red Bull seemed to cast themselves (deliberately or not) as the 'fun team'. Wearing capes, storm trooper outfits and whathaveyou. I think they left that image back in 2008.

These days, rarely a week goes by without there being some controversy about them. Real, fabricated or alleged.

Edited by KiloWatt, 30 March 2013 - 12:38.

[SpaMaster]

The last week is the first time after a long time they have been in some sort of tension. Otherwise they have been reveling in championships after championships. I am sure Vettel and the Red Bull team have been enjoying the life quite a bit - with mega bonuses and what not with their championship that is unlike any other team. I am sure of the four big-spending teams, Ferrari, McLaren, Red Bull and Mercedes, they are having the most fun.

[undersquare]

The last week is the first time after a long time they have been in some sort of tension. Otherwise they have been reveling in championships after championships. I am sure Vettel and the Red Bull team have been enjoying the life quite a bit - with mega bonuses and what not with their championship that is unlike any other team. I am sure of the four big-spending teams, Ferrari, McLaren, Red Bull and Mercedes, they are having the most fun.

There's normally some controversy going on around Red Bull, whether it's tyres or camber or RRA or engine maps or aero wishbones or flexi wings or bendy floors. Some of it is jealousy, sure, but some of it is how they operate.

Anyway if we knew for sure that Horner was conspiring with Bernie against the other teams, by telling him things the others regarded as confidential, we'd think less of him, wouldn't we? I would, anyway.

[choyothe]

Man human race is one bitter bunch.

[Nemo1965]

Man human race is one bitter bunch.

Tut tut. F1 is not 'the human race'.

[choyothe]

Tut tut. F1 is not 'the human race'.

I'm not talking about this only.

[William Hunt]

This attempt at character assassination is low, even by shoddy journalism standards.

Indeed it's too ridiculous for words

[mattferg]

I was going to post something on this article last night. I applaud Dieter Rencken for at least having the courage to stick his head above the parapet.
Unfortunately though, those that haven't read the full article are missing the context. After the defection from FOTA, Red Bull were in a position to negotiate separately with Ecclestone.

Proof of what a snake Horner is, is confirmed in yet another quote from the article.

I somehow doubt that he can be trusted by anyone, including his own team hierarchy.

The second quote was entirely disproved when it was found out it wasn't Horner meeting anyone important at Ferrari and it was just to discuss CA. Newey has said he'd never work in a team outside of the UK! Literally proves this article is rubbish right there.

[SpaMaster]

There's normally some controversy going on around Red Bull, whether it's tyres or camber or RRA or engine maps or aero wishbones or flexi wings or bendy floors. Some of it is jealousy, sure, but some of it is how they operate.

Anyway if we knew for sure that Horner was conspiring with Bernie against the other teams, by telling him things the others regarded as confidential, we'd think less of him, wouldn't we? I would, anyway.

First of all, controversy over car elements is not something that bothers them. It is mainly a talking point for others, that's all. They know perfectly well what they are doing with their car, and it is a risk definitely worth taking given their returns. Other teams should follow them like text book, but their cleverness only goes as far as banning one out of ten of them losing out overall.

Next, the article. First of all it is tabloid stuff. Just name-calling and rumour-mongering that's all. Horner was on phone when they were in front of their motorhome? Really, this is teen girl stuff. What is clear is how silly whoever told this story to this reporter, if any did actually tell. I wouldn't read this kind of stuff even if "I" am given 20 bucks.

[undersquare]

First of all, controversy over car elements is not something that bothers them. It is mainly a talking point for others, that's all. They know perfectly well what they are doing with their car, and it is a risk definitely worth taking given their returns. Other teams should follow them like text book, but their cleverness only goes as far as banning one out of ten of them losing out overall.

Next, the article. First of all it is tabloid stuff. Just name-calling and rumour-mongering that's all. Horner was on phone when they were in front of their motorhome? Really, this is teen girl stuff. What is clear is how silly whoever told this story to this reporter, if any did actually tell. I wouldn't read this kind of stuff even if "I" am given 20 bucks.

I'm not saying anything bothers Red Bull. Presumably they make their choices, and we each make ours about what we think. If we do a team popularity poll where will Red Bull be?

On the name calling...'teen girl'???

Not to say that 'teenage girl' is a description of some people not term of disparagement, unless you are horribly sexist.

And it's not clear that it's untrue, is it? How can you be so confident?

[SpaMaster]

It could be true in the sense that someone in F1 circle may have told this reporter these things. But I doubt this F1 person's perspective. He is just silly and delusional I think. He was talking to someone outside Red Bull motorhome. He saw Horner on phone with someone. Little later, Bernie came there. Horner may in fact be Bernie's whatever and that is a different matter altogether. But the way this story is written, I just don't think it is true.

As for teen girl wording, come on man, you are reading too much into it. I just meant school kid stuff, silly rumour stuff, nothing else. So leave it.

[TheUltimateWorrier]

I like this theory. So Formula 1 is like a John Le Carre novel? Principal, Driver, Mechanic, Spy out in all good bookstores this holiday season.

[DILLIGAF]

Horner & Bernie must have done lunch!!

http://www.dailymail...ian-Vettel.html

[aditya-now]

... o.O yeah... doubt that... I seen Horner talk alot with Niki Lauda recently before races.... and that outside the interviews

maybe they are both spys

Makes perfect sense - Niki was a Bernie man since his days at Brabham - on ORF he gave many interviews speaking about Bernie in a way that insinuates a very close relationship at the time.

Red Bull being outside of the teams, going their own way, blowing agreements, Bernie supporting Sebastian openly and a weak-willed Horner (even 25 year old Seb willed him down) in the midst of it.

What sounds like a conspiracy theory is nonetheless highly possibly, knowing especially the way how Bernie operates.

[Mandzipop]

A discussion about ride height tools and the BAR fuel tank issue has nothing to do with whether Christian Horner is a mole of Bernies. I've just deleted a full page of posts. Please stay on topic.

[Sin]

if Horner and Lauda are Bernies right and left hand... then maybe the Team Order Drama of Malaysia was all planned by Bernie.... to get people watch F1 again....

[ashley313]

Horner and Lauda are both waging a not so subtle PR war against the 2013 tires. Why is anyone surprised to see parallels?

[ardbeg]

Must say I was a bit sad reading that article. I thought it was bad during the Mosley times but it seems that F1 is worse off than ever before. Only this time there seem to be no FiA involved at all. Big contrast, Max was giving headlines every week but Todt... is he still there?

If spending cap is gone I assume there is only a matter of time until testing will be free (but frowned upon) again. Money will mean more than ever.

[Muz Bee]

When I read the thread title I ignored, seemed ridiculous and just another speculative hate piece.
After several days it was still gathering momentum and I have to admit when I saw the OP it still seemed ridiculous.
But the fuller translation of Rencken's article made some sense. I don't yet see evidence though for any payback so question whether it isn't another case of envy getting the better of his opponents.

As for the comment about him getting on the phone to Bernie that really takes the biscuit for conspiracy phobia. What this thread does though is provide some much needed space for a retrospective look at the last few years of politics and economy of F1. The views of McLaren being affected by being on the outer with the powerbroker of F1 is certainly plausible.

As one poster intimated though, what could Horner provide that Bernie isn't fairly well attuned to through his close communication with the entire pitlane?

[SonJR]

The second quote was entirely disproved when it was found out it wasn't Horner meeting anyone important at Ferrari and it was just to discuss CA. Newey has said he'd never work in a team outside of the UK! Literally proves this article is rubbish right there.

It's hard to say however much of what is being reported about this is true, but according to German Motorsport-Total there were actually two meetings, with the latter one (about the CA) being used to disproved the negotiotions with Ferrari.

The meeting you refer to also featured Whitmarsh and Lauda and took place in early 2013 and was indeed about the Concorde.
The meeting that Rencken (who is also a contributor to Motorsport-Total, it should be noted) is hinting at and in which Horner repordetly pitched himself and Newey to Ferrari, alledgedly took place in late 2012 (december).

Like I said, hard to say how much of this is true, but these are the articles about the separate and different meetings:
Horner: Secret meeting with Ferrari in Maranello?
Ferrari continues speaking with candidate teambosses
Marko puzzled by rumours: 'Horner will stay until 2017'

[Tommorris747]

It's hard to say however much of what is being reported about this is true, but according to German Motorsport-Total there were actually two meetings, with the latter one (about the CA) being used to disproved the negotiotions with Ferrari.

The meeting you refer to also featured Whitmarsh and Lauda and took place in early 2013 and was indeed about the Concorde.
The meeting that Rencken (who is also a contributor to Motorsport-Total, it should be noted) is hinting at and in which Horner repordetly pitched himself and Newey to Ferrari, alledgedly took place in late 2012 (december).

Like I said, hard to say how much of this is true, but these are the articles about the separate and different meetings:
Horner: Secret meeting with Ferrari in Maranello?
Ferrari continues speaking with candidate teambosses
Marko puzzled by rumours: 'Horner will stay until 2017'

How do we know that Horner wasn't calling Bernie to say that the other team principals are having a fake meeting in front of his motorhome?
Shoot first, think later.

[black magic]

all quite possibly true.

red bull concessions certainly well in excess of their history and contribution.

this is classic bernie - rule and divide - something horner will find out to his cost

for the team to beat the last 4 years red bull certainly has been given the rub of the green on more than 1 occasion.