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Frank Williams trading Keke Rosberg


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#51 proviz

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 05:54


I don't wish to throw a wet blanket over this, but Keke now says he doubts such plans ever existed. Does Botsford quote him on this? I did read the book back in the day, but haven't got it on the shelf.




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#52 Arjan de Roos

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 06:58

If Williams was so picky about drivers, why on Earth did he enroll Daly that year? Lees, Ghinzani, Thackwell, to name a few, would have been better prospects, apparently.

Also Daly had more experience in F1 than the others, and Tyrrell had him on his team before.

#53 kayemod

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 10:51

I don't wish to throw a wet blanket over this, but Keke now says he doubts such plans ever existed. Does Botsford quote him on this? I did read the book back in the day, but haven't got it on the shelf.


I've read quite a lot of Keith Botsford's work, for several years he was the Sunday Times's Effwun writer, but I never regarded him as being particularly insightful or even interesting, so probably not the most reliable source. His stuff was pretty much all they ever published on F1, it was there, so I used to read it. Worth bearing in mind that before they appointed him as their "F1 Expert", he was the tennis writer, I always thought he should have stuck to the bouncing balls, he probably understood them better.


#54 Collombin

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 13:48

Wasn't he also involved in exposing corruption in European football? (Botsford, not Keke)



#55 kayemod

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 15:56

Wasn't he also involved in exposing corruption in European football? (Botsford, not Keke)


Well, I told you he was better with bouncing balls...


#56 garoidb

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 16:54

I've read quite a lot of Keith Botsford's work, for several years he was the Sunday Times's Effwun writer, but I never regarded him as being particularly insightful or even interesting, so probably not the most reliable source. His stuff was pretty much all they ever published on F1, it was there, so I used to read it. Worth bearing in mind that before they appointed him as their "F1 Expert", he was the tennis writer, I always thought he should have stuck to the bouncing balls, he probably understood them better.


As I recall, it was a direct quote from Keke, who collaborated on the book.

#57 LittleChris

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 19:50

I've read quite a lot of Keith Botsford's work, for several years he was the Sunday Times's Effwun writer, but I never regarded him as being particularly insightful or even interesting, so probably not the most reliable source. His stuff was pretty much all they ever published on F1, it was there, so I used to read it. Worth bearing in mind that before they appointed him as their "F1 Expert", he was the tennis writer, I always thought he should have stuck to the bouncing balls, he probably understood them better.



I seem to remember his first jottings on the Grand Prix scene being a preview / practice round up pubished in the Sunday Times on the morning of the tragic 1975 Spanish GP at Montjuich. Was very different from previous F1 articles I'd read in that paper.

#58 LittleChris

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 19:59

If Wikipedia is to be believed, it seems that Mr Botsford's done a few more things on top of writing about Grand Prix and tennis.

http://en.wikipedia..../Keith_Botsford

Edited by LittleChris, 04 July 2013 - 19:59.


#59 MCS

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 20:44

Wasn't Roberto Guerrero well fancied for a time?


By many.

He wasn't slow and he had a shed full of sponsorship money - what better? Moreover, he had people pushing him like crazy to the media and anybody and everybody else who would (or could) listen.


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#60 chr1s

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 22:18

I don't wish to throw a wet blanket over this, but Keke now says he doubts such plans ever existed. Does Botsford quote him on this? I did read the book back in the day, but haven't got it on the shelf.


Yes, it was a direct quote from Keke himself (page 128) "And then at the end of 1982, just as I was winning the world championship, I found out that I was being offered to another team. As a trade in"

Where did you hear that Keke now says he doubts such plans ever existed?

#61 kayemod

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 22:35

Yes, it was a direct quote from Keke himself (page 128) "And then at the end of 1982, just as I was winning the world championship, I found out that I was being offered to another team. As a trade in"

Where did you hear that Keke now says he doubts such plans ever existed?


I still have doubts about Botsford's input, surely it's not exactly unheard of for a professional journalist to "improve" or even invent quotes? The reason I'm doubtful is that there's no hint of any of this in Maurice Hamilton's book Williams, which is close to being the official Williams story, with contributions from every single one of the people involved from beginning to end. If none of them, Frank, Patrick, Keke, Carlos etc, etc, even hint at any swap proposal, can we be sure that there's any substance in the story?


#62 proviz

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 05:21

Yes, it was a direct quote from Keke himself (page 128) "And then at the end of 1982, just as I was winning the world championship, I found out that I was being offered to another team. As a trade in"

Where did you hear that Keke now says he doubts such plans ever existed?


That's what the man said himself when I asked soon after this thread was started. He doesn't like to be quoted, but I hope to get away with this.



#63 lustigson

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 08:14

... the often maligned 1982 Ferrari [...] was perhaps not the fastest F1 car of the year but it was the best car overall ...


Hence the World Constructors' Championship in said season. :cool: :wave:

#64 Arjan de Roos

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 10:21

Hence the World Constructors' Championship in said season. :cool: :wave:


Well, Henri hits the nail on its head:

126C2 could have ended up as one of the hallmark F1 cars in history yet is most of all remembered for bad things only.

Henri


One of the great IF's in racing: Villeneuve WC in 1982. The C2 would fitted the line of 500F2, 246F1, 156, 158, 312T/T2/T4 perfectly. Indeed only the sad stories remain.... but also the memories of certainly one of the prettiest of Turbo F1 cars.

Back to Keke.


#65 lustigson

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 10:52

One of the great IF's in racing: Villeneuve WC in 1982.


Someone should write a book about that. ;)

#66 JacnGille

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 12:57

Someone should write a book about that.;)

Or Ron Howard's next movie. :cool:

#67 lustigson

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 12:57

Or Ron Howard's next movie. :cool:

:clap:

#68 kayemod

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 13:31

Or Ron Howard's next movie. :cool:


Not necessarily, at least allow us all a chance to appraise Rush first.


#69 hogstar

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 14:38

I don't wish to throw a wet blanket over this, but Keke now says he doubts such plans ever existed. Does Botsford quote him on this? I did read the book back in the day, but haven't got it on the shelf.



I'm currently re-reading this book and not only is it a direct quote, Keke goes on to talk about it at length and how it took 18 months for a Williams member of staff to tell him. I can't see how that can be doubted, plus Botsford's input in the book is not overly significant, he just pieces things together.

The book came out in early 1985, the year after the shitbox that was the FW09. It's a shame Keke jumped ship as the FW10 and the team were coming good as he could of been WDC in '86 with the FW11 had he stayed. The significance of the 'trade' cannot be understated, as it must of been a significant factor in him eventually leaving the team - and with arguably the best car -in late 1985.

I would recommend the book to anyone who can get their hands on it. Coming into F1 relatively late stood Keke well and he comes across as a thoughtful and intelligent man who doesn't suffer fools. He gets some stick in some quarters for only winning one GP in his Championship year, but he did what he needed to do and the FW08 wasn't exactly the best car in '82, let alone '83. Villeneuve may well of won the title, but if he had of shown the maturity that Keke had, he wouldn't of been killed. They often gets lumped together, but by '82, Gilles and Keke were very different drivers as is well described in the book.

As far as Derek Daly goes, he was quite highly regarded for a while but suffered for having too many accidents, though they weren't always his fault. It was his big break, but it actually killed his F1 career - Frank was looking for a quick stop gap who was available and cheap. Daly would of had to achieve much to keep his seat, which by his own admission, he didn't do.

#70 chr1s

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 21:26

That's what the man said himself when I asked soon after this thread was started. He doesn't like to be quoted, but I hope to get away with this.


Wether the plan ever exsited or not is academic, there was still "a driver" that Rosberg perceived (incorrectly) that he was being traded for. He says he knows who it was!

#71 Tim Murray

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 06:06

In the issue covering the 1982 Long Beach GP, Motoring News had a couple of paragraphs on who Williams were looking at to replace Reutemann. Andretti had stood in at Long Beach, but his Indycar commitments ruled him out. Test driver Jonathan Palmer was committed to his F2 programme, plus Frank considered him too inexperienced at that stage.

MN reckoned that the two drivers Frank was actively pursuing were Derek Warwick and Nigel Mansell. Toleman had indicated that they might be willing to release Warwick, but Lotus had completely rejected any potential move for Mansell.

As we know, Frank eventually opted for Daly. However, if later on he was considering swapping Keke, Warwick and Mansell must still have been high on his list.

#72 BiggestBuddyLazierFan

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 06:37

Apart from Alain Prost in 1993.


1982 happened before 1993

In 1982 Frank Williams and people in general couldnt know what will happen in 1993

This, his sentence is correct

#73 chr1s

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 20:01

I must admit that Warwick was my prime suspect when I started the thread, although I've often wondered if Keke's reluctance to talk about this subsequently is because it was Mansell and the two later became friends.



#74 kayemod

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 22:46

I must admit that Warwick was my prime suspect when I started the thread, although I've often wondered if Keke's reluctance to talk about this subsequently is because it was Mansell and the two later became friends.

 

 

If as was said in one of the first posts, the mystery driver "Hadn't gone on to achieve anything", it certainly wasn't Nige, but it could very well have been Derek Warwick.



#75 garoidb

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Posted 17 August 2019 - 12:30

If as was said in one of the first posts, the mystery driver "Hadn't gone on to achieve anything", it certainly wasn't Nige, but it could very well have been Derek Warwick.

 

That was written in late 1984, though, so Nigel's future achievements were not known or widely anticipated.

 

While hiring Nigel for 1983 and 1984 might now, with the benefit of hindsight, seem like a great idea, in reality he joined Williams at exactly the right time and might not have flourished before that. It might be as well for Nigel that Jacques Laffitte (and Keke) took the brunt of that.



#76 chr1s

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Posted 17 August 2019 - 19:10

In the book Keke made a point of mentioning, not just the driver but to what team he was being offered, as if this was of greater importants to him. If the driver was  Mansell then that would mean being at Lotus, still not a bad place to be in 1982. But if it was Warwick then that would mean Tolman, which must have looked depressingly similar to Wolf and Fittipaldi....



#77 hogstar

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Posted 09 August 2022 - 09:43

Thought it was worth bumping this thread. Has anyone solved the mystery?



#78 Rediscoveryx

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Posted 09 August 2022 - 10:09

One extremely left field idea:

 

...maybe it's not a driver trade? What if "trade-in" would have meant trading away Keke to Renault for an engine deal?

 

:smoking:

 

 

Edit; stupid idea though, as presumably the engine wouldn't be classified as "a driver that had gone on to achieve nothing in F1"


Edited by Rediscoveryx, 09 August 2022 - 10:11.


#79 garoidb

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Posted 09 August 2022 - 14:29

I must admit that Warwick was my prime suspect when I started the thread, although I've often wondered if Keke's reluctance to talk about this subsequently is because it was Mansell and the two later became friends.

 

... and perhaps because he went on to be so successful, making the original comment look badly misguided. That would make sense of his reluctance to comment now. 



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#80 Collombin

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Posted 09 August 2022 - 14:36

Keke would hardly have been the only one surprised by Mansell's subsequent success. It gave Peter Warr terrible difficulties.

#81 opplock

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Posted 09 August 2022 - 15:11

Keke would hardly have been the only one surprised by Mansell's subsequent success. It gave Peter Warr terrible difficulties.

 

I remember talking to a couple of Mansell fans on the morning of 1985 European GP. They despaired of their man ever winning a GP. I confidently replied "He's bound to win one". As indeed he did that afternoon. 

 

I still think Derek Warwick's F1 career would have been very different had Renault not imploded in 1985. 



#82 Bloggsworth

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Posted 09 August 2022 - 18:42

Keke would hardly have been the only one surprised by Mansell's subsequent success. It gave Peter Warr terrible difficulties.

Hats are very indigestible I'm told...



#83 Mallory Dan

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Posted 09 August 2022 - 18:47

Cheever I'd say, fwiw



#84 Nick Planas

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Posted 10 August 2022 - 08:29

Hats are very indigestible I'm told...

I think Peter Warr's original comment may have related to his possession of a certain orifice, the absence of which really would have been... explosive  :rotfl:



#85 hogstar

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Posted 10 August 2022 - 14:34

One extremely left field idea:

 

...maybe it's not a driver trade? What if "trade-in" would have meant trading away Keke to Renault for an engine deal?

 

:smoking:

 

 

Edit; stupid idea though, as presumably the engine wouldn't be classified as "a driver that had gone on to achieve nothing in F1"

 

 

Keke said that the trade was 'not for commercial reasons', so I think we can rule that one out. 



#86 hogstar

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Posted 10 August 2022 - 14:52

Cheever I'd say, fwiw

 

Cheever had achieved 7 podiums by the end of '83, so I doubt that would fit into Keke's criteria in his book, though cannot be totally discounted. 

 

Eddie had been passed around the F1 paddock like an old fag packet and never settled anywhere. Didn't exactly fit the Williams mould. 

 

Marc Surer is one I keep coming back to, who would have then been at Arrows and never got decent results. Hmmm...



#87 garoidb

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Posted 10 August 2022 - 17:32

Cheever had achieved 7 podiums by the end of '83, so I doubt that would fit into Keke's criteria in his book, though cannot be totally discounted. 

 

Eddie had been passed around the F1 paddock like an old fag packet and never settled anywhere. Didn't exactly fit the Williams mould. 

 

Marc Surer is one I keep coming back to, who would have then been at Arrows and never got decent results. Hmmm...

 

I am virtually certain that Marc Surer had a testing accident in South Africa that year, and broke bones. He was back in time for the Belgian Grand Prix so it could have been him if it was later than that. That was also the race that Daly debuted with the team having driven for Theodore up to Long Beach. Would Marc have been an attractive trade coming back from injury, and why wouldn't Williams try to trade Daly instead? One possibility is that the other team wouldn't trade for Daly (which makes sense, especially in retrospect). So, what team might have been interested in Rosberg but not Daly?  



#88 Glengavel

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Posted 11 August 2022 - 14:19

I wonder how 1982 would have panned out if Williams had gone with Tambay instead of Daly.



#89 hogstar

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Posted 11 August 2022 - 17:19

I wonder how 1982 would have panned out if Williams had gone with Tambay instead of Daly.

 

Not much I'd say, though he would have been closer to Rosberg. I'm sure Tambay would have done a better job in 83 as Laffite was disappointing. 



#90 hogstar

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Posted 11 August 2022 - 18:08

I am virtually certain that Marc Surer had a testing accident in South Africa that year, and broke bones. He was back in time for the Belgian Grand Prix so it could have been him if it was later than that. That was also the race that Daly debuted with the team having driven for Theodore up to Long Beach. Would Marc have been an attractive trade coming back from injury, and why wouldn't Williams try to trade Daly instead? One possibility is that the other team wouldn't trade for Daly (which makes sense, especially in retrospect). So, what team might have been interested in Rosberg but not Daly?  

 

The story goes that Williams wanted Andretti after Carlos re-retirement, but he could not commit to all the races. Therefore it ended up being Daly or Warwick. There was some sort of connection between Daly and Williams' Charlie Crichton-Stuart so he got the gig. Can't help thinking they picked the wrong Derek...

 

Getting rid of Daly after 4 races would not have made sense either, 2 of those points scoring places.

 

Surer did a Beyond The Grid recently and mentioned the opportunity that almost came to replace De Cesaris at McLaren during the '81 season (Ron was possibly using Marc to place pressure on Marlboro for a better driver) and Ferrari after Gilles death (though he was one of several, history has shown). No mention of a potential Williams drive unfortunately, so maybe not him after all. 

 

Another thing throw in the mix is there is an interview with Keke in a December '82 edition of Autosport where it is mentioned that Frank took up the second year option 'as early as June'. That was the month of the Canadian GP where things weren't going well and the 'trade' offer probably happened shortly after that. Williams then re-signed Keke and the results started to come too.