98 replies to this topic

[rhukkas]

The concept of 'professional' drivers has been systematically eroded from all areas of the sport.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Bottas is not a pay driver he doesn't bring monney with him.

He does.

[Hayden1]

Bottas is sponsored by Wihuri( but it's not far from PAY ), edited, Ric and Vergne edited ,You are right .but i think Hulk pays some money or have sponsor who is helping him. i have to check this one out

Edited by Hayden1, 10 April 2013 - 18:06.

[Collective]

Bottas is sponsored by Wihuri( but it's not far from PAY ), edited, Ric and Vergne edited ,You are right .but i think Hulk pays some money or have sponsor who is helping him. i have to check this one out

Hulk brings Dekra. But I'm not sure if it's just as personal sponsor or if they are paying anything. They do show up in Sauber's website, but I don't remember any announcement, plus they don't appear on the car, I don't think it's significant, and that's assuming they are paying at all.

[Prost1997T]

Gutierrez, Maldonado, Sutil, and even Bottas go into Pay* because they deserve their drives but the money set them apart from other candidates.

Maybe di Resta as well if we're counting his Mercedes connection (engine discount etc). He had to hang around in DTM a long time, probably would have been overlooked.

Not sure about Ricciardo or Vergne. I honestly think the current field of drivers (beyond the top 6-8) is overrated and that better candidates were out there to fill several seats (particularly at Marussia and Caterham). GP2 as of late hasn't been the series that it was pre-2008, or comparable to F3000 back in the day. There are some real talents like Calado and Evans there, but for every one of those you have field fillers and 4th year entrants.

[Mandzipop]

It is all well and good saying that drivers are pay drivers. It's a fine line to tread. I always see it that if an F1 team spotted talent when the driver was younger and they and they put them on their junior program (if they have one) and got to F1, I don't class that as a pay driver. If you look at the grid you'll find a lot have come through that route. They cannot be classed as pay driver because the F1 team paid their way for them. They were and still are their employer. So I look at how a driver got into F1 in the first place. Whatever their status is now just shows how bad the team finances are.

Another thing I would consider is would a team (if they didn't have financial issues) take on the pay driver if they didn't have that backing? Prime example is Alonso, he brings sponsorship which helps pay the team bills, but he would have gotten the Ferrari drive without Santander.

So you've got financial backed drivers of I'll say it is almost like a class system.

The drivers that got/get in via junior programs run by F1 teams.
The drivers that got/get into F1 with backing from individuals who wouldn't get a drive without that funding due to lack of skill.
The drivers that got/get into F1 without bringing financial backing due to skill.
The drivers that got/get into F1 who would get in or get a drive for a team regardless of whether they have funding or not. If they do it is a bonus.

Have I missed any out?

[muramasa]

It is all a considerable problem if, as it seems is the case, there is a trend of rising costs at the same time as the amount of overall corporate sponsorship falls, leaving teams increasingly reliant on well-funded drivers to help balance their books directly. As opposed to the older model of hiring the best available drivers and having faith that their talent and ability would generate success and excitement and so in turn attract sponsors.

Now if the cost of racing at the junior level was such that a large pool of talented youngsters could take part, this wouldn't be so much of a problem because the norm would be for the most promising drivers to attract corporate backing in the first place. But it doesn't work like that, does it? There's less money knocking around companies to be supporting drivers too, making it increasingly look like the talent pool feeding F1 will continue to shrink until it is dominated by young drivers who only get their start in the first place because their parents are very wealthy.

My worry is in a few years we'll be looking at a grid full of trust fund kids who are all okay drivers but not brilliant, which will further damage the sport as the truly great drivers get ever fewer and further between, leading sponsorship to dry up further and we get into a bit of a vicious circle.

yeah.
it's increasing getting "either brilliant driver (with/without backing) or solid to crap driver with backing".
it's true that pay drivers is nothing new, there were Verstappen, Diniz, Rosset, Nakano etc before. But at the same time there was space secured for drivers like Fisi and Rubens, or even Webber, to emerge and stay in F1. Nowadays theres alot less space for "drivers who's solid, or has potential to be quite good or even brilliant, but without much/no backing".

in the old days F1 or maybe motorsport as a whole had such leeway - eg team owners at any categories spot a talent and put in his car rather freely (eg JB and Kimi).
But nowadays everything is fund-locked and railed bit too much and less dynamic it seems. One particular driver having backing isnt a problem but if F1 or motorsport as a whole accepts only one type of template, it will result in losing aforementioned leeway and dynamic...then maybe the likes of DC, HHF, and perhaps even Webber, wouldnt have chance in F1 of now, which isnt necessarily a good thing.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Verstappen was in the category of good but funded.

[muramasa]

Verstappen was in the category of good but funded.

yes that's what I meant - listing solid to mediocre to crap drivers with backing. couldve done better certainly but was offhand, so.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Ah, I wouldn't have included Nakano and Rosset so thought you were including Verstappen in the crap category.

[Fastcake]

Why is paul di Resta N/A on peoples lists?

I don't think anyone knows whether or not Mercedes are still supporting him this year. Now that they've got two drivers sorted out I'll be surprised if they were.

[Red17]

Hang on.... Todt is complaining about the danger of the grid being filled with pay drivers.
How exactly is that different from the lower tiers?

[Wingcommander]

It's a sad fact that F1 is not financially sustainable for many teams. The only way to change this is to get RRA working properly, set a budget cap or give more FOM money to the 2nd half of the grid. And none of these are likely to happen. The number of pay drivers will only increase.

[Anderis]

It's a sad fact that F1 is not financially sustainable for many teams. The only way to change this is to get RRA working properly, set a budget cap or give more FOM money to the 2nd half of the grid. And none of these are likely to happen. The number of pay drivers will only increase.

+1

As long as top teams are able to spend 2-3 times as more as midfield teams, midfielders will be looking for someone who brings money, not to mention backmarkers. Budget cap and more fair share of FOM money will put midfielders in the position that having the best possible drivers is the best possible choice for them, regardless of what sponsorship they bring. At the moment in F1, money makes more difference than driver, unfortunately.

Edited by Anderis, 10 April 2013 - 19:09.

[muramasa]

Ah, I wouldn't have included Nakano and Rosset so thought you were including Verstappen in the crap category.

i know, i couldve put it better.
the point i was making was to compare "solid to crap driver with backing on the current grid" = Maldonados to Chiltons and "solid to crap without backing in the past" = Vers to Rossets. then, if to have backing of Maldonado or Perez size becomes only or major way to get into it and promoted in the sport to be either solid or quite good or brilliant (or poor as well), perhaps there wont be Kimi/JB/Webber/Rubens/etc, which isnt a good thing. less variety, less dynamic, more and more about money.

[Sakae]

Perhaps half of the grid should compete in a different series, and let F1 to those who can afford it. Financial model regarding revenue sharing could use some serious changes as well. 30% reduction in cost will solve absolutely nothing on the long run.

Edited by Sakae, 10 April 2013 - 19:21.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Taking 30% off the top of the budgets would be a massive change.

[Sakae]

Animal is sick; taking aspiring is not going to fix it. JT is smart enough to know, that his cause&effect analysis lead him invariably to a different remedial actions, but he also knows, that he would not be able to talk to commercial rights holder about anything at the moment. I take it that he is hoping for a temporary measures (which cutting expenditures is), and after Ecclestone retires, he is hoping to get a new deal with his successor, and/or owners. I am not much into conspiracies, but I think there is more to it than meets the eye. Todt is not an idiot, and he knows this business inside out.

[Currahee]

I don't think anyone knows whether or not Mercedes are still supporting him this year. Now that they've got two drivers sorted out I'll be surprised if they were.

I see. I still think Mercedes will have some input. Cheers.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Once F1 goes public I don't know how anyone will be able to renegotiate the terms to be more favorable to the teams. F1 will become even *more* focused on short term earnings.

[gd2]

Todt has the power to change this, F1 should have the best 20 drivers in the world, at present we 12 maybe 14 of those.

Todt should tighten the Super Licence requirements restricting the drivers who can compete.

He should also get rid of the young driver schemes, with the exception of Vettel, Red Bull's is a disaster and the blinkered views of Marko have seen talent like Adam Carroll overlooked for the mediorce.

[Anderis]

Perhaps half of the grid should compete in a different series, and let F1 to those who can afford it.

Yeah, since there are dozens of competitors ready to join F1 immediately and spend over $150 mln per year.

[Kalmake]

Todt should push for new points system that scores every position. As it is, the bottom teams have no need for a quick driver. Their championship position is decided by one result out of 40 drives. It's more luck than skill.

[Sakae]

If F1 goes public, the only hope we have that shares will be held by very few dedicated automotive enthusiasts. If not, and bankers get hold of the helm, we can mark that day as a date when GP as presented by F1 has died. That will be a slow and painful death (My crystal ball is a source).

[BoschKurve]

If F1 goes public, the only hope we have that shares will be held by very few dedicated automotive enthusiasts. If not, and bankers get hold of the helm, we can mark that day as a date when GP as presented by F1 has died. That will be a slow and painful death (My crystal ball is a source).

When that happens, I suspect for those willing to give it a go, the time will be ripe to set up a new grand prix racing entity.

But as far as pay drivers go, they've been around since well before the war. There's nothing even remotely "new" about it, and Todt should keep his mouth shut.

[Risil]

How is that a conundrum? About the only guy who straddles the line is Maldonado because he has results and a sponsor not due to market forces.

?

[Ross Stonefeld]

If F1 goes public, the only hope we have that shares will be held by very few dedicated automotive enthusiasts. If not, and bankers get hold of the helm, we can mark that day as a date when GP as presented by F1 has died. That will be a slow and painful death (My crystal ball is a source).

Uhm, it won't be owned by the fans that's for sure.

[charly0418]

I'm very interested to see what happens with James Calado this year. IF he wins GP2 (which is no sure thing at all) It will be interesting if he gets an F1 drive even though he has no backing AT ALL! Winning Gp2 in his 2nd year would be very impressive, and if he finds himself without a seat then yeah, I'd be a little mad at F1.

Another one to keep an eye on is Robin Friijns, he also has no backing at all (not even to race in GP2) yet he's the reserve driver for Sauber. What if Hulkenberg leaves to a big team after this season? Will they put Frijns in?

Just my 2 cents

[fabr68]

I think it is very normal if half of the teams are start-up mom's basement style Formula 1 teams.

[ANF]

"Schumacher, still a contracted Mercedes driver, was signed by Eddie Jordan after Mercedes paid Jordan $150,000 for his debut."
http://en.wikipedia....but_with_Jordan

[Rybo]

I'm very interested to see what happens with James Calado this year. IF he wins GP2 (which is no sure thing at all) It will be interesting if he gets an F1 drive even though he has no backing AT ALL! Winning Gp2 in his 2nd year would be very impressive, and if he finds himself without a seat then yeah, I'd be a little mad at F1.

Another one to keep an eye on is Robin Friijns, he also has no backing at all (not even to race in GP2) yet he's the reserve driver for Sauber. What if Hulkenberg leaves to a big team after this season? Will they put Frijns in?

Just my 2 cents

I think it takes more than winning GP2 as Davide Valsecchi did not get a seat, yet Gutierrez, Chilton, van der Garde, and Razia(briefly), who all finished lower than him in GP2 got a seat for this year. Plain and simple money talks, fakers walk.

[KnucklesAgain]

Lauda became a racing driver despite his family's disapproval. After starting out with a Mini, Lauda moved on into Formula Vee, as was normal in Central Europe, but rapidly moved up to drive in private Porsche and Chevron sports cars. His career seemed to be going nowhere in particular until he took out a large bank loan, secured by a life insurance policy, to buy his way into the fledgling March team as a Formula Two (F2) driver in 1971. Because of his family's disapproval he had an ongoing feud with his family over his racing ambitions and abandoned further contact. He was quickly promoted to the F1 team and drove for March in both F1 and F2 in 1972. Although the F2 cars were good (and Lauda's test-driving skills impressed March principal Robin Herd), March's 1972 F1 season was catastrophic and Lauda, in despair and deep debt, briefly contemplated suicide but finally took out yet another bank loan to buy his way into the BRM team in 1973.

http://en.wikipedia....years_in_racing

[Slackbladder]

His point that drivers shouldnt have to bring money.

Not many team sports are expensive as F1, and if they are, it's due largely to player wages.

[Slackbladder]

Perhaps half of the grid should compete in a different series, and let F1 to those who can afford it. Financial model regarding revenue sharing could use some serious changes as well. 30% reduction in cost will solve absolutely nothing on the long run.

People would say the same about football and the gap between the 'have' and the 'have nots'.

But would a series with only 10 cars and only 5 teams be that interesting? Not really....

[hansmann]

"Schumacher, still a contracted Mercedes driver, was signed by Eddie Jordan after Mercedes paid Jordan $150,000 for his debut."
http://en.wikipedia....but_with_Jordan

But Schumi wasn't pre-selected by some random investors outside of F1, as many of today's 'pay drivers' are , or at least to a degree .
That is what I don't like about the current selection process, I'd rather have the teams pick the best drivers, without having to consider the funding he brings .

Change the regulations to only allow the teams to get sponsorship money; if a driver becomes successfull, he can get his own sponsers, like MS did, but that will be his money.

[Slackbladder]

But Schumi wasn't pre-selected by some random investors outside of F1, as many of today's 'pay drivers' are , or at least to a degree .
That is what I don't like about the current selection process, I'd rather have the teams pick the best drivers, without having to consider the funding he brings .

Change the regulations to only allow the teams to get sponsorship money; if a driver becomes successfull, he can get his own sponsers, like MS did, but that will be his money.

Changing those regulations will only hurt the smaller teams, not the big boys... is that really what you want?

[Nemo1965]

I think, again, that mr. Todt's job is very simple, if he wants talent to have a better chance than 'just money':

1. Stop changing the rules every two years, so parts of 'old' F1 cars can be re-used again
2. Allow customercars (if they are one year old)
3. Allow third cars (if they are one year old).
4. Allow teams to change drivers, have guest drivers, third cars at some grand prix etc.

Within the current rules Gilles Villeneuve and Michael Schumacher perhaps would not have entered F1 and Stirling Moss would have had one grand prix victory less in Monaco...

[Nustang70]

But Schumi wasn't pre-selected by some random investors outside of F1, as many of today's 'pay drivers' are , or at least to a degree .
That is what I don't like about the current selection process, I'd rather have the teams pick the best drivers, without having to consider the funding he brings .

Change the regulations to only allow the teams to get sponsorship money; if a driver becomes successfull, he can get his own sponsers, like MS did, but that will be his money.

I'm not sure that would work. The problem, as I see it, is that it is becoming increasingly difficult for Formula One can no longer sustain a full field of entries with sponsorship. Sponsored drivers are becoming a last resort in teams' desperation to attract sponsors. Major corporations seem more interested in directly investing or purchasing teams (Red Bull, Mallya, Sahara, Marussia, Air Asia/Caterham), which, eventually, may will leave us with a sport full of teams named after consumer goods--a prospect, I for one, do not wish to happen. The sport needs to be managed in a way that teams should be able to compete solely on TV revenues, with any sponsorship merely a bonus.

Only Red Bull, Mclaren, Ferrari and Mercedes have title sponsors that aren't also owners/part owners in the team. Between the other teams, only a small number of their medium-sized sponsors aren't a result of driver-associations or owner brands.

Mid-High level direct team sponsorship (I'm basing this on prominent placement--wings, sidepods, engine cover, or that space behind the front wheel):

Red Bull: Infiniti
Ferrari: Santander (subject to debate), Shell, Marlboro (not sure if they still do sponsor Ferrari, but they have that obviously Marlboro-inspired team logo), Kaspersky
Mclaren: Vodofone, Mobil, Lucozade
Lotus: Unilever (Rexona, Clear), Burn
Mercedes: Petronas, Blackberry
Sauber: none
Force India: none
Toro Rosso: IPIC (Nova, Falcon Private Bank), Cepsa (according to Alguersuari, he was misled by Franz Tost into helping sign the Spanish firm before they elected not to renew his contract--not sure how accurate that is)
Williams: Experian, Randstad
Caterham: GE, EADS/Airbus (both of these are debatable due to Fernandez signing major non-F1 deals beforehand)
Marussia: QNET

Edited by Nustang70, 12 April 2013 - 07:59.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I think it takes more than winning GP2 as Davide Valsecchi did not get a seat, yet Gutierrez, Chilton, van der Garde, and Razia(briefly), who all finished lower than him in GP2 got a seat for this year. Plain and simple money talks, fakers walk.

Calado's got a much better resume than Valsecchi.

[Slackbladder]

To put it simply, the midfield and below teams are struggling big time, so anyway to cut costs, and max revenue, they'll take.

A 'pay' driver (or a driver with financial backing) does both. You don't have to pay for the driver, and it brings money into the team. It's a no-brainer.

Especially when you can't spend to compete, you only spend to survive.

[Head]

williams , half sauber , half lotus is the only teams that hire paying drivers other than marussia and caterham

[Prost1997T]

Calado's got a much better resume than Valsecchi.

Yeah, and IIRC a charity is helping to fund his racing at the moment.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I'm not sure it's a charity, it's a rich guy who likes racing. Bit of a throwback really.

[Anderis]

Sauber: NEC

As far as I know, NEC deal with Sauber is actually paid by Mexican part of NEC, so it seems a part of a Perez-Gutierrez deal. It's what I've read some time ago.

[charly0418]

As far as I know, NEC deal with Sauber is actually paid by Mexican part of NEC, so it seems a part of a Perez-Gutierrez deal. It's what I've read some time ago.

This is correct, NEC is in it because of the Mexican drivers

[Prost1997T]

I'm not sure it's a charity, it's a rich guy who likes racing. Bit of a throwback really.

The drivers that RSF have backed so far seem like genuine talent or at least possible single seater talents from what I can see.

[Collective]

I think it takes more than winning GP2 as Davide Valsecchi did not get a seat, yet Gutierrez, Chilton, van der Garde, and Razia(briefly), who all finished lower than him in GP2 got a seat for this year. Plain and simple money talks, fakers walk.

Valsecchi had been in GP2 forever, though. Gutiérrez was 3rd, only behind the fossils, in his 2nd season. If you ask me it's just about as impressive as David's winning in 4th season feat. Chilton wasn't completely ridiculous for a 2nd year either.

[Prost1997T]

2012 was Chilton's third year in GP2, he placed 25th and 20th in points prior to that.

Edited by Prost1997T, 11 April 2013 - 21:09.

[pingu666]

the fact that macca have run around with that horrible looking tooned ad on the rear wing for ages, plus brawn being pretty bare for a year, bit worrying :/